Author Topic: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter  (Read 7271 times)

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kevin_video

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Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« on: October 12, 2010, 01:04:48 PM »
A friend of mine was bored at work, and came up with this "awesome" concept, and I thought I'd share it. He doesn't believe in the tier system, and is one those "you can make any class awesome" kind of people. He believes this build to be "sick" thanks to the feat Shield Master.

10 levels of Fighter (Two Weapon Warrior)
10levels of Stalwart Defender

Feats taken in this order (may be tweaked to improve playability)

Improved Shield Bash
Two Weapon Fighting (Dex 15)
Dodge
Shield Slam
Endurance
Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Dex 17)
Shield Focus
Toughness (or Improved Toughness -- based on DM)
Double Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Shield Master
Covering Defense
Greater Two Weapon Fighting (Dex 19)
Combat Reflexes
Body Guard
In Harm's Way

Your thoughts? Other than "the fighter is a terrible class and nothing can be made from it."
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RobbyPants

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 01:10:48 PM »
Is he in a group with a caster?  What types of people does he normally play with?  That may taint his perceptions of what a "sick" character is.

I'd say, let him make the thing as-is and see how it fares.  If the rest of the group is equally unoptimized and the DM takes pitty on them, then he might have a blast.  If the rest of the party knows how the game actually works, then he might be in for a rude surprise.

I mean, yeah, this guy has some interesting options going for him, but you can get more interesting options by just playing a straight classed martial adept or a rogue, before spending a single feat.
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Solo

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 01:12:48 PM »
You can make a good fighter from the fighter, but that's about it.

Oh, tell your friend to PvP, or play in a party dungeoncrawl, with me and see how the fighter compares in terms of power and versatility.

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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 01:17:43 PM »
Is he in a group with a caster?  What types of people does he normally play with?  That may taint his perceptions of what a "sick" character is.

I'd say, let him make the thing as-is and see how it fares.  If the rest of the group is equally unoptimized and the DM takes pitty on them, then he might have a blast.  If the rest of the party knows how the game actually works, then he might be in for a rude surprise.

I mean, yeah, this guy has some interesting options going for him, but you can get more interesting options by just playing a straight classed martial adept or a rogue, before spending a single feat.
Usually he's the DM, but he wants to be a player for a while so he came up with this for the next game. Everyone in the group knows how to play all of the D&D systems. This means he's played everything. I don't remember the PrC he's used for the latter, but his favourite character to have been is actually a toss up between his changeling factotum/momf or his rogue/sorcerer/X.

I've seen other players kind of be like this too. Where they're tired of optimizing, and making really complicated characters, so they go back to the straight up human fighter and leave it at that. They don't even care if they're a one-trick pony. They just don't want complexity anymore.

You can make a good fighter from the fighter, but that's about it.

Oh, tell your friend to PvP, or play in a party dungeoncrawl, with me and see how the fighter compares in terms of power and versatility.
PvP where?
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Solo

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 01:21:18 PM »
PvP here.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 01:22:12 PM »
PvP here.
Got an open one he can join?
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Solo

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 01:23:00 PM »
We can always make one. Why don't you be the DM?

Incidentally, I suggest we do this at level 13 because that's where I have several sorcerer builds.

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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2010, 01:23:42 PM »
We can always make one. Why don't you be the DM?

Incidentally, I suggest we do this at level 13 because that's where I have several sorcerer builds.
I'll e-mail him, and see if he's interested.
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Mixster

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 01:24:07 PM »
Do shield bonus to AC even stack?

If yes, then why not get a load of animated Tower shields as well?
If no, then why have two shields?

What can he do in a combat? Just hit stuff that stands in front of him?
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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2010, 01:28:25 PM »
I'm not sure what he's doing with that because I could have sworn that two of the same bonuses do not stack.

I think his isn't so much bash people, but to be a blockade.

And I just found out that this build is for Pathfinder. The game he's sitting in, will be his first PF game because the new DM wants to give that a shot. He did the build up while reading the books at work.
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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 01:31:42 PM »
He's already thinking about revising it, and going human because he just learned about Saving Shield, and how it applies your shield bonus to your allies.
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Solo

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 01:34:33 PM »
This should be fun. Pathfinder has more powerful character classes.

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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 01:36:26 PM »
This should be fun. Pathfinder has more powerful character classes.
Depends on your point of view. I know so many people who hate the nerfed wizard/sorcerer spells, unbroken wildshape druid build, and medium armor proficient cleric class.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2010, 02:41:06 PM »
This should be fun. Pathfinder has more powerful character classes.
Depends on your point of view. I know so many people who hate the nerfed wizard/sorcerer spells, unbroken wildshape druid build, and medium armor proficient cleric class.
While they nerfed a lot of the spells, they kind of shot themselves in the foot with their backwards compatibility claim.  As soon as someone brings a Spell Compendium to the table and the DM allows it, all of that "balance" was for naught.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2010, 03:24:49 PM »
I'm not sure what he's doing with that because I could have sworn that two of the same bonuses do not stack.

I think his isn't so much bash people, but to be a blockade.

And I just found out that this build is for Pathfinder. The game he's sitting in, will be his first PF game because the new DM wants to give that a shot. He did the build up while reading the books at work.

So in combat he'll do exactly the same as a level 1 spell? Filling out one 5ft square where the opponents can't go? How is that useful?
IIRC shield boni don't stack, and they didn't change that in pathfinder.

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While they nerfed a lot of the spells, they kind of shot themselves in the foot with their backwards compatibility claim.  As soon as someone brings a Spell Compendium to the table and the DM allows it, all of that "balance" was for naught.

Also some of the spells they nerfed very hard while others they didn't touch at all. Magic Jar is as gamebreaking as ever, and Black tentacles lost little but some damage and +3 to grapple, which, while it balances it some, is still a hardcore broken spell.
Sleet Storm and grease are still awesome.

All pathfinder really did to the spells was make Conjuration better than transmutation, so we could get that stupid debate finished up. Necromancy also gets quite good in Pathfinder since none of the broken spells in there were nerfed (Enervation, Ray of Exhaustion, Magic Jar).

The also made Illusion a lot better, it was already decent, but now it's gotten a level 1 spell that makes you invisible, and silent image is a good a BC spell as ever on the low levels.

All in all, I don't think pathfinder made the wizards and sorcerers much worse off, yes they got hit with a nerf-bat. But a very minor one, and they also get better class abilities now. Especially the sorcerer got better.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2010, 03:33:49 PM »
All in all, I don't think pathfinder made the wizards and sorcerers much worse off, yes they got hit with a nerf-bat. But a very minor one, and they also get better class abilities now. Especially the sorcerer got better.
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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2010, 04:23:27 PM »
Saving Shield and Covering Defense are apparently what help make things stack.
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Mixster

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2010, 05:12:54 PM »
Saving Shield and Covering Defense are apparently what help make things stack.
So you can hold one shield for your adjacent ally? Why is that better than him having his own animated shield? Only if he is a wizard would that hamper him in any way.

I still don't get it, it's a melee build that is based around keeping adjacent to the squishes, while the squishies want to stay at range. So at best you use all your actions to give cover to your neighbor, and at worst you can meelee attack twf style (which statistically deals less damage than meleeing THF style), and your friend you are trying to protect will move away so as to not get hit in the head when trying to cast a spell.

Why is this in any way better than a lockdown build?

My thoughts so far is this is a semi-low Tier 5, which is where the class belongs.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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kevin_video

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2010, 05:48:04 PM »
*shrugs* I don't know how this build is supposed to work. He's the one who designed it, not me. But if he thinks it's going to be good, maybe it will be. He's been RPing a lot longer than I have so maybe he sees something we don't. Not a clue. And the PF fighter is no longer Tier 5. It's probably low Tier 4 now.
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Solo

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Re: Dwarven Twin Shield Fighter
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2010, 06:40:52 PM »
But can he see why kids like Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.