Author Topic: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up  (Read 25479 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2010, 06:06:17 AM »
Screw it.  I'm loading up the dude with god touched, divine channeler, planar touchstone(for extra turning), minor divine spellcaster, heighten spell, and a reserve feat, and sticking the whole mess onto an illumian with a nightstick and a drakehelm.

With the ''minimal'' investment of six feats (so at ninth level), I can now cast a ninth level spell and correspondingly use a fully powered reserve feat. As long as I have summon instrument on my list, that's a constant large elemental.
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snakeman830

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2010, 01:50:46 PM »
Daisho Proficiency: Free Masterwork Bastard Sword & Masterwork Short Sword, hello money! Also, free weapon proficiency in a cool weapon.

Not really, no.  It says "Many Samurai recieve an heirloom set of these two blades, known as a daisho".

It does not say that the Samurai actually starts with them, unlike the OA Samurai.  It says that they usually have them.  The only thing they actually gain is proficiency with these weapons RAW.  The weapons themselves must still be purchased.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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dark_samuari

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2010, 04:11:48 PM »
Daisho Proficiency: Free Masterwork Bastard Sword & Masterwork Short Sword, hello money! Also, free weapon proficiency in a cool weapon.

Not really, no.  It says "Many Samurai recieve an heirloom set of these two blades, known as a daisho".

It does not say that the Samurai actually starts with them, unlike the OA Samurai.  It says that they usually have them.  The only thing they actually gain is proficiency with these weapons RAW.  The weapons themselves must still be purchased.

Oh what do you know, another disappointment...

Nunkuruji

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2010, 04:50:23 PM »
The Complete Samurai Strengths

Basic Information
d10 hit die
Good fort save
Rather unique selection of skills

1st-Level
Strong Weapon & Armor Proficiencies
Daisho Proficiency: Free Masterwork Bastard Sword & Masterwork Short Sword, hello money! Also, free weapon proficiency in a cool weapon.
2nd-Level
Restrictive Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd-Level
Pseudo-Smite  
5th-Level
Quick Draw for free!
6th-Level
Staredown: Finally an actual intimidate ability!
8th-Level
Improved Initiative for free! O-boy!?!
10th-Level
Mass Staredown: Yay! Better at scaring people!
11th-Level
Slightly Better But Still Restrictive Two-Weapon Fighting!
14th-Level
Improved Staredown: Woo! Quicker scare time!
16th-Level
Perhaps Even Better Now At Slightly Being Better But Still Restrictive Two-Weapon Fighting!
20th-Level
Frightful Presence!

So let us examine what we get out of the sweet pumpkin pie of a combat class.
Expensive equipment early on!
Ability to sort of scare dudes
Restrictive two-weapon fighting.

So it seems like we have only really two class features to focus on:
Unimpeded two-weapon fighting with a bastard sword & short sword
Intimidation

That is where we have to, by following the class, go in terms of optimization.


Daisho seems to slide nicely into Weapons of Legacy. Grab your critical spell effects there, rather than awkward UMD nonsense.
TWF without the dex proficiency is a license to dump dex, thus I don't see a great benefit to building around AoO, particularly with non-BFC weapons on a Samurai 20.
Pseudo-Smite may qualify for a few smite feats like Awesome Smite? Whether that's good or not....
Quick Draw Iaijutsu Focus usual stuff
Intimidate Never Outnumbered Fearsome Armor usual stuff

The AoO/Robilar way actually seems a lot more interesting going the Ronin route. With the typical Ubercharger feats, opening with a full Banzai Charge and taking the gambit. If it doesn't fall to the ubercharge, and the enemy decides to strike you, it's in for a world of punishment. Of course this is not of much interest when dealing with usual well-prepared full casters. Could throw in some anti 5-ft step & Mage Killer if you wanted to try.

Every time I look at this class I /facepalm

X-Codes

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2010, 05:42:07 PM »
If you want to do some kind of Legacy Weapon angle with your ancestral Daisho, then just use the OA Samurai.  It's way better designed to handle it.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2010, 07:58:19 PM »
iirc - the OA version allowed a Fan like shield thingy.
The response to it, was Basketweaver.
(uh oh sorry shouldn't have mentioned it)

Of course I'm partial to getting some Psi in there, but still ...

perhaps Might Makes Right feat to go with the Str opt ??

betrayor

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2010, 08:04:10 PM »

Mixster

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2010, 08:15:33 PM »
Can't we somehow come to terms with the fact that the Samurai class is misspelled Warblade and is in Tome of Battle?

I mean... The way it works now is even worse in an actual game, where you might get your Katana and Wakizashi for free, but as soon as you find another weapon, roleplaying giving up your family heirloom for the sword you found in the dungeon will be pretty hard.

Also, the CW samurai doesn't have Iaijutsu focus as a class skill, which means and Expert is better at that. Neither does he have UMD. So whenever you attempt to optimize a skill with him that isn't intimidate, you are doing something every class could do, and most of them could do better because they aren't dependant on 4-5 different abilities.

So here is my optimised Samurai Build:

[spoiler]Warblade 20[/spoiler]
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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snakeman830

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2010, 08:19:33 PM »
I prefer OA Samurai 20 for a Samurai, but that's because that class could do things other than try and scare people.  And it gave you a very good reason to keep your daisho around from level 1-20.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

skydragonknight

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2010, 08:25:40 PM »
The AoO/Robilar way actually seems a lot more interesting going the Ronin route. With the typical Ubercharger feats, opening with a full Banzai Charge and taking the gambit. If it doesn't fall to the ubercharge, and the enemy decides to strike you, it's in for a world of punishment. Of course this is not of much interest when dealing with usual well-prepared full casters. Could throw in some anti 5-ft step & Mage Killer if you wanted to try.

I'd say pimp out the Bastard sword and use it two-handed for your charge/full attack routine. Charge Banzai-style with Power Attack for (semi) massive damage. Use your Glove of Storing to store the weapon after the charge. When they attack you, Mercurial Strike (feat from Dragon Mag. and I *believe* Compendium) them, drawing a +1 short sword (could be anything, but being thematic here) for Iajutsu and sneak attack damage against their flat-footed selves. If you can drop the weapon on their turn (up to DM though I've seen free actions like talking used out of turn), then you can drop that and wait for another AoO to draw another +1 short sword. They can try to pick up the dropped weapon of course, but that provokes an AoO. :)

There, you have a unique combat style and are using both your diasho weapons. You *could* easily have a gnome quickrazor as the "offhand" weapon (though you burn up a feat), but I'd rather just save the feat for something else (like grabbing Iajutsu focus to begin with) and just draw Masterwork/+1 weapons.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

lans

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2010, 12:54:51 AM »
Unfortunately, optimizing a build is not the same as optimizing a class.  A build that relies on UMD or other things outside of the class to be powerful isn't showing the class is strong, only that there are powerful things in     addition to class.
JaronK
This is true, but this isn't optimizing a class its building the highest tier character possible with the restriction of class to samurai.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2010, 03:30:28 AM »
I'm really swamped both this evening & tomorrow night, but Thursday I'll provide myself some free time to construct a build or two.

I've always loved the concept of the samurai, so I guess working off such a harsh limitation might be fun.

carnivore

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2010, 11:01:39 AM »
with a Real Samurai, they were proficent with Swords .... but they were also Experts with the Diakyu(Composite Longbow).... this build focuses on that aspect, even though this is not necessarily a class feature(it should be in my opinion)

Another Class Feature that is Ignored .... is the KIAI SMITE, this is not Precision Damage, but a more forceful attack, since he is Invigorated by the Shout and this boosts his accuracy and Damage. An interesting note is that this can be used with any weapon, not just Melee weapons.

when you combine the Kiai Smite feature with Ranged combat .... it can be very effective and Devastating, while at the same time still being Competent at Melee. Especially is this the case when you can apply it to Multiple Arrows at once... thus Manyshot becomes very important... here is an example of this:


Blooded one Phrenic Gray Elf (LA bought off)
CW Samurai 20

Attributes (32pt buy)(Racial adjust +2 Dex,+2 Con,+2 Int,+2 Wis,+4 Cha)

20 Str(10 +4 Inherent(Arm) +6 Enhancement Belt)
30 Dex(16 +2 Racial +2 lvl +4 Inherent+6 Enhancement Belt)
22 Con(14 +2 Racial +6 Enhancement Belt)
20 Int(12 +2 Racial +6 Enhancement Belt)
16 Wis(8 +2 Racial +6 Enhancement Belt)
30 Cha(16 +4 Racial +3 lvl +1 Inherent +6 item)

Traits:
Aggressive: +2 Initiative, -1 AC

Flaws:
Slow
Vulnerable

Feats:Shadow: This armor is jet black and blurs the wearer whenever she tries to hide, granting a +5 competence bonus on Hide checks.

DARKFEARSOMECombat:

Ranged
BAB +20 +10 Dex +7 Enhancement +1 PBS +2 Morale= +38
with Kiai Smite = +38+10 Cha = +48 to Attack
Kiai Smite + Manyshot = +40 Attack roll with 4 Arrows that Split into 8 Arrows ..... that continue thru the Target until they hit a Non-living Object... for each target they pass thru add additional +4 AC to next target

Damage = 1d8(4.5) +1d6(3.5) Exit wound +2d6(7) Raptor arrow +7 Enhancement +5 Str = +27 Damage per arrow

with Kiai Smite = +37 Damage per Arrow x 8 arrows

total 296 Damage to every creature in a row for the range of the Bow that it hits(@+4AC of each successive Target)(or until it hits an Object) and it Ignores DR and affects Incorporeal since all of it is Force Damage ..... what this means is that he could use this attack Tactic and take out 4 Balors(290 HP, AC 35 each) if they were in a line in a single round assuming he rolls 10 or better to attack, if he rolls a 1, he still takes out 2 of them in a single round!!!

the nice thing is that he still has the other Skills(Diplomacy, Intimidate) to fall back on, and he is a great TWF Combatant with Retributive Striking ability still.... and can switch between both styles of Combat as a Free Action


 :D

carnivore

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2010, 11:35:29 AM »
by the way ... i hope nobody misunderstands me about this:

i do not think the CW Samurai is a Great, Fun or Powerful Class, nor do i think it is Versatile.

however i do believe it can be optimized, and can be used in ways to get more out of it than it has as it is written.
many times when someone requests a CW Samurai Build, the lazy response i have seen a lot is "just dont take the class" or "Druid 20 is stronger" .... but these responses do not help the OP who requests assistance in "Optimizing a CW Samurai build" .... many times the wishes of the OP are ignored and they are "Told" what to take since thier ideas suck.

i would just like to see some useful examples of how a less than ideal Class can be "Pimped out" so that it still retains the original Flavor of how the class could have been, while at the same time greatly boosting its performance

some of the Builds we have gotten in this thread so far have shown that there IS a lot that can be done with this class ..... and there are more ideas that have yet to be tried .... some might be very surprising in how they turn out

 :D

Gods_Trick

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2010, 11:43:04 AM »

I'm still surprised we haven't seen a samurai pixie Carnivore  :D

carnivore

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2010, 11:47:46 AM »
i am intentionally trying to avoid using it ..... Pixies can make many things work simply because of what they bring(similar to Ghost)

they dont demonstrate how to Optimize the Class(or Builds using the Class) .... they are simply Racial Boosters for any class

.... later after some more build Ideas have been discussed, i will post a Pixie Build :smirk


 :D

Havok4

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2010, 01:54:57 PM »
Where is the blooded one template from?

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2010, 02:11:40 PM »
Where is the blooded one template from?
I want to say Unapproachable East.
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Arz

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2010, 02:12:10 PM »
- use the best samurai ability: turn into a Ronin (and optimize SA); problem: if you do it well, you give up your samurai class levels and you can't get a level 20 build. Though samurai 1 / ronin 10 / warblade 9 would be optimized, I guess it won't
I think Ex-Samurai 6 might be better.  With, shall we say, "appropriate" reading of the table under Ronin, we could hit 14th-level Samurai, drop it down to 6 with the 11+ ability, and keep Improved Staredown despite now being an Ex-Samurai 6/Ronin 8-9.

Maybe not RAW, but at the very least what you get is almost worth the class levels leftover from Samurai.

Could also take a bloodline of 2 or 3 then go up Samurai 14, drop to Samurai 4/Ronin 10 and still count as "samurai 6 or 7" on the ex-samurai table. Which leaves you with 6 more levels to work around.

Havok4

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Re: Optimization Challenge: CW Samurai .... Put up or Shut Up
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2010, 03:46:36 PM »
Where is the blooded one template from?
I want to say Unapproachable East.
Thank you.