Assistance with a Gestalt game requested

[danakir]

Alright, before I get into the thick of things I'd just like to let everyone who's reading this post with the intention of trying to help me they have my utmost appreciation. ^^

With that said, I'll start with what's already been decided for me by the DM for this game. As such, it's not subject to change. Then I'll throw in what little groundwork I've done so that everyone can look it over and provide me with both advice and ideas. Just so this can be kept in mind while reading this, I'm looking to create a powerful summoner who can manipulate the planes and transcend the traditional limits of arcane magic. Not necessarily the most potent build around but I'd like to put every advantage I can on my side for this one, as it's a very small game. (Hence the Gestalt thing)

This game will start at level 1, as such if possible something of a return on investment within the first six levels or so would be highly appreciated, but it's not entirely necessary if the wait is worth it.

The character I've been given by the DM is a Wizard/Sorcerer Gestalt, with the Wizard being a specialist Conjurer. I've also been provided with Augment Summoning for free without having to give up on anything as a bonus feat through houseruling. I'm especially worried about survival at this early level since no matter how you slice it, with only another partner in crime I could get in trouble before I can wield some of the earth-shattering power for which arcane casters are well known and loved.

At the moment, I'm looking into throwing in Malconvoker to the mix, which I believe would allow me for some great flexibility while still turning me into one mean summoning machine. I've also picked up the Rapid Summoning variant to help with that.  As far as attributes go, we went with traditional 4d6 so they go a little something like this:

Str: 11
Dex: 15
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 13
Cha: 16

I'm especially looking for help with feat selection and some sort of long-term build, as admitedly I'm unsure how to make what I'm looking for happen. If at all possible, I'd love to have the ability to get us additional 'pets' to supplement our reduced party size while still having the flexibility to wield the great utility and crowd control for which 'GOD' is known.

If anyone needs more precise details or has anything they'd like to ask me so they can better provide help, I'll gladly provide the information.

I'd like to offer my thanks for everyone's time! Do forgive me if I'm missing any crucial information, I'm rather new to posting on message boards.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, honestly, sorc/wiz is one of the worse gestalt setups (sure, you have mondo spells, but you don't have the actions to cast them with, and you have to use two of your high stats for casting). 

Are you going to be able to change classes at later levels?  If so, you might want to consider trading away everything you can from one of the classes for ACFs or what have you (if nothing else, one of those "summon familiar" class features has to go), and then multiclassing out. 

It would also be good to know what books are open, and how much you think you can push the envelope. 

[danakir]

As far as I know, I've got access to everything outside of the Dragon Magazine stuff. As for pushing the envelope, I've got a lot of freedom but the DM is pretty allergic to cheese, so although I appreciate powerful combinations, I'd prefer to stay clear of those that particularly stink of the stuff.

Should I pehaps try to convince him to let me play a Wizard/Cleric or Wizard/Archivist? Would either be any good in the circumstances?

With that said, is being unable to use that many actions really that much of a problem? In general from what I've experienced playing as a single class arcane caster, it doesn't really matter whether or not you can cast many spells at once as long as you can cast the right one at the right time. I'm only asking out of curiosity, as I'm horribly unfamiliar with the Gestalt feature.

Is there anything else you'd like to know?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, the main thing is that a single casting class should be able to cover you for spells known, and your spells per day is going to matter less within an encounter, while having much better skills or higher HP or evasion or something can help you while you're casting spells.  If you really feel the need to have more spells known on tap, going with a class that has a different spell list like the archivist is a better idea (but has the disadvantage of forcing you to buy spells for both your class lists).

An easy setup would be wizard (probably with prestige classes)// Factotum, which is very focused upon intelligence, gets you a bunch of skills and some interesting tricks (like ignoring spell resistance, and eventually extra actions in a round).  If you were to do that, I'd recommend a race with no level adjustment and an intelligence bonus, like a lesser mechanatrix or gray elf or something of that sort. 

[Benly]

Are you going to be able to change classes at later levels?  If so, you might want to consider trading away everything you can from one of the classes for ACFs or what have you (if nothing else, one of those "summon familiar" class features has to go), and then multiclassing out.  

It helps that conjurers have the best (in my opinion) familiar-ditching ACF around. Abrupt Jaunt (PHB2) is fantastic.

Anyhow, I agree on sorc//wiz being a little weak as gestalt goes. The actions thing isn't "spellcasters need to be able to get off multiple spells per round", because they don't need to (and can do it anyway eventually), it's that even though you have twice as many spells you're still casting the same number per round as a non-gestalt. On a given round, a gestalt sorcerer//wizard is exactly identical to a normal sorcerer or wizard. By contrast, a wizard//warblade (or whatever), even on rounds when he's casting a spell, benefits from the improved HD, saves, BAB (if it's a spell with an attack roll) or whatnot, and on rounds when he's taking warblade actions he's probably benefiting from wizard buffs. There's not much synergy in wizard//sorcerer compared to what gestalt is capable of. Wizard//cleric or wizard//archivist at least gets two spell lists to pick from; the archivist reduces MAD and has yet more spell options while the cleric has a better chassis, domains, and so on. Wizard with something that has an excellent chassis or always-active benefits is probably even better.


..ninja'd hard but yeah.

[danakir]

That's an extremely interesting suggestion there. The Wizard/Factotum one, I hadn't considered it. But at a glance I can see why it'd work out very nicely. Out of curiosity, considering I have to make the 'Wizard' part of the equation a Conjurer, would Malconvoker work nicely to play into that strength? It's something that is important to the roleplay of the character, but I'm still inquisitve as to whether it'll end up gimping me in any way.

As for race, I'm afraid that though I forgot to mention it, this particular character is a human. Admitedly it's not the optimal race in this case, but it should still be decent or at least mediocre. I really should have mentioned that, it sort of escaped my mind.

If you have any strong suggestions for PrCs, I'd be glad to hear them out.

Much thanks for your time. ^^

And I got ninja'd too!

Mmmm, what do you mean by an excellent chassis, Benly?

[Benly]

Mmmm, what do you mean by an excellent chassis, Benly?

By chassis I mean things like hit die, BAB, saves, skills, sometimes proficiencies, etc. Fundamental attributes every class has to some degree, as opposed to class features. Sorry, guess I'm used to my own group's jargon. A wizard has about the worst chassis of any PC class, but it's an excellent class because of its features (or rather, because of its one gigantic feature). A fighter has a good chassis (full BAB, high HD, best proficiencies) but no real class features to speak of.

I am embarrassed that I didn't think of factotum even though it is extremely obvious in hindsight and I love the class. Personally my first instinct for gestalt is either warblade for an extremely beefy chassis, or binder or an incarnum class for excellent "always-on" bonuses and relatively low MAD with almost anything (binders don't lean that heavily on Cha if they're focusing on their utility and always-on abilities instead of attacks, and for incarnum you'd want a nice solid Con anyway.) Factotum probably beats either for pure usefulness, though.

[danakir]

Looking over Factotum however, it forces me to ponder what kind of feat selection I should make. Since each class has rather distinctive feat that are particularly useful to they and not much to the other one. Well, at least I can see how the feats that work well for the Wizard would help the Factotum too, but for instance stuff like Font of Inspiration and Imperious Command, are they worthwhile compared to other feats I could take to enhance my arcane spellcasting instead?

What I'm saying is that I can easily see the extreme usefulness of the combination, I'm just not sure how to handle it due to not being particular expert on the usage of Factotums to start with.

[X-Codes]

Basically, you're not using Factotum for the usual Factotumy stuff, you're using it as something to beef up the numbers of a Wizard and should treat it as such.  Don't worry about taking Font of Inspiration 20 times, just get your stock metamagic and reserve feats and be an awesome wizard that, occasionally, takes an extra Standard Action.

If your DM doesn't like this idea, bring up the other spontaneous arcane casters: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage.  They're not so much better than Sorcerer as they are different, and can be taken advantage of by prohibiting the schools associated with their spells (for example, prohibit Enchantment and Illusion as a Conjurer/Beguiler) and making it so that the whole character does a better job of fitting together.

Also, if you give up your familiar, take the Obtain Familiar feat as quickly as possible.  Action economy is in full swing when you're gestalting dual casters, so dedicate extra resources to passing abilities to your familiar.  You will probably want an Improved Familiar, even, that you can buff and send into melee.

[danakir]

So in other words, use Factotum for what it gives the Wizard and dedicate myself to being an awesome Wizard? I think I can do that just fine! Which brings me to something of a question, I've always been a bit cold toward reserve feats. Given what I've said up to now, do you have any you'd recommend?

Also, if you give up your familiar, take the Obtain Familiar feat as quickly as possible.  Action economy is in full swing when you're gestalting dual casters, so dedicate extra resources to passing abilities to your familiar.  You will probably want an Improved Familiar, even, that you can buff and send into melee.

You lost my noob self at 'action economy'. That is, I understand the concept in general, but I don't see how it applies here in relation to your familiar. Not only that, but although I'm aware that through polymorph and other such fun goodies and sharing personal spells you can make your familiar pretty damn awesome, I'm not sure how worthwhile such an endeavor is and how long it'll take to give a return on investment.

I've noticed that some builds on this board though incredibly awesome once finished, end up having to gimp themselves for a while due to very poor early return on investment. (Think first five or so levels)

And since those are the levels at which you're most vulnerable... see why I'm a bit hesitant about what I should be focusing on early before I start playing with Malconvoker and throwing around the classic summoner-type feats?

[Benly]

You lost my noob self at 'action economy'. That is, I understand the concept in general, but I don't see how it applies here in relation to your familiar. Not only that, but although I'm aware that through polymorph and other such fun goodies and sharing personal spells you can make your familiar pretty damn awesome, I'm not sure how worthwhile such an endeavor is and how long it'll take to give a return on investment.

The way action economy applies to familiars is pretty straightforward: you get a set of actions, and your familiar gets a set of actions. Your familiar, as a general rule, does what you tell it to. Effectively, having a familiar means you get two sets of actions, albeit one of them is much more limited in terms of what can be done with them. Sharing buffs onto your familiar means that the second set of actions gets much more potent, ideally while you're boosting yourself.

Also worth noting is that your familiar gets to use your skill ranks. As a factotum, you have the opportunity to have ranks in a lot of delicious skills. So if you've got Use Magic Device, you can give your familiar a wand of your favorite spell and have him go to town. If you've got Iaijutsu Focus, a combat-oriented familiar can use it for bonus damage. If you take sneaky skills, your familiar becomes an even more outstanding scout than it already was, and so on.

As for reserve feats, I like having an attack reserve feat at low levels so that I'm not forced to resort to a crossbow, but my DMs tend to be a little less lenient about half-hour adventuring days than most seem to be. Besides that, the factotum gestalt will give you much better options when the spells run out than a wizard normally has, so it might not be an issue. Either way, it'll tend to be less useful as you advance, so it's a better option if retraining is available than if not. At higher levels, the teleportation feat is quite fun, Summon Elemental has all kinds of uses (especially if your DM believes that "as if summoned with Summon Monster" means Augment Summoning applies, but even without that it's good) and Minor Shapeshift is a bottomless fountain of temp HP.

[danakir]

That's all very interesting and informative, thank you very much! But being such as I am, I do still have questions about what you just said.

1) 'The Teleportation feat'? Which would be?
2) Are Summon Elemental feats really that good? Why? And I already know that he'll probably think Augment Summoning applies so glee!
3) Minor shapeshift, I've heard that one thrown around a LOT but never seen anyone explain HOW and WHY it's so good. Hear a lot about it being a fountain of temp HP, but not quite sure how that works out?

If I post a build after all this is done, that is my questions have been answered, would you consider giving it a look-over to make sure I'm not doing it horribly wrong?

Also, I see there's a familiar guide available, does it help any with understanding how to turn your familiar into a second set of delicious actions? (The obvious such as UMI aside. Though that's pretty damn good already!)

[Benly]

That's all very interesting and informative, thank you very much! But being such as I am, I do still have questions about what you just said.

1) 'The Teleportation feat'? Which would be?
2) Are Summon Elemental feats really that good? Why? And I already know that he'll probably think Augment Summoning applies so glee!
3) Minor shapeshift, I've heard that one thrown around a LOT but never seen anyone explain HOW and WHY it's so good. Hear a lot about it being a fountain of temp HP, but not quite sure how that works out?

1) The feat I was thinking of is Dimensional Jaunt, I'd just forgotten the name at the time. Since it's a standard action, it's not great for battlefield mobility, but out of combat it's quite handy - a literal "get out of jail free" card, for one thing. As a supernatural ability and a purely mental action, you can use it when grappled, tied up and chained to a wall, encased in a concrete block with only your head sticking out or just plain paralyzed, which is all pretty nice. On top of that you can just hop right past any problematic terrain, trap-filled corridors or whatnot (if you're not permanently flying by the time you get it, anyway).
2) Summon Elemental's elemental is too small to be great in a fight, but if you can communicate with him and give him complex orders (and as a summoner, it behooves you to learn planar languages so you can do that with your regular summons) you have an unlimited-use flying fairly-stealthy scout, an unlimited-use walks-through-walls-and-floors scout, expendable goons you can send marching down a hallway to set off traps ahead of you, and so on. Since they're unlimited-use, there's not much reason not to pop out new ones each time the old one's duration expires when you're out of combat, so you start each fight with an extra meat shield/distraction who's entirely expendable and can try to buy you some time to get a real summon out.
3) Minor Shapeshift is a swift action to trigger, and one of its benefits is "temp HP equal to your hit dice". Like Summon Elemental, there's not much reason not to sustain this one all the time when you're not doing other things, so you'll be starting each fight with a wad of temp HP, which is a nice start. What's important, though, is that you lose your temp HP first when you take damage, and then you can pop them back up as a swift action the next round. This is better for gishes than for wizards, but canceling out the first X points of damage you take every round isn't bad at all. As a bonus, +1 CL to your polymorph spells is actually useful since it determines your maximum allowable HD. The other powers are not so great for a non-gish but there could be situations where you'd want the Mobility or Speed options. Mainly it's for the temp HP.

Oh, another feat worth looking into is Cloudy Conjuration. The cloud it pops out on each of your conjuration spells blocks line of sight and dissipates immediately before your next turn, so it breaks up the battlefield nicely and doesn't really interfere with your own actions.

As far as posting your build goes, I'm personally not that great at summoner wizards but I'm sure someone'll have good advice if you do. Just be prepared for at least a few people to entirely ignore your initial build concept and propose something entirely unrelated which they happen to be personally fond of.

[strider24seven]

Just to note:

Wizard//Sorcerer is a pretty bad gestalt.  Sucky BAB, saves, and HP, just like a wizard or a sorc. 

Wizard//Warblade is a really good gestalt.  Good BAB, wicked saves, and d12 HD.  And melee ownage.  A gish out of the box, although to function well as anything else, it needs feats (mostly metamagic or melee feats).

Wizard//Factotum is another really good gestalt.  Actually it's my 2nd favorite, right after Psion//Factotum.  Versatility out of the wazoo, and functions well without any additional feats.  Font of Inspiration helps, but other feats usually help more.

If you want a devastating build:

Wizard 20//Factotum 8/Ur-Priest 2/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/XXX 1

Yest, you get 9th-level arcane and divine spells, and can get extra standard and swift actions on demand.  You also have some maneuvers.  Cast, cast, win.  Note that you can drop the Crusader levels if you use feats for martial study and martial stance to get in to RKV.  In that case, I recommend Warblade Or a divine PrC instead.

[Benly]

Wizard 20//Factotum 8/Ur-Priest 2/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/XXX 1

So I know fluff requirements are scoffed at by charopers generally speaking but I still feel compelled to point out that Ur-Priest and RKV are as written mutually exclusive.

[Phoenix00]

Wizard/Psion is almost as good as Wizard/Factotum.  I am reposting some info from the 339 boards


http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/23924345/Inexperienced_with_3.5_and_trying_to_build_Cerebromancer?pg=1

The wizard side should be a focused conjurerer with the abrupt jaunt alternate class feature.  Give up Enchantment, Illusion and your choice of Evocation, Necromancy, or Abjuration.  With Abrupt Jaunt you always have an oh **** button.  Conjurations is also useful even when you are a few levels behind when you focus on battlefield control.  Grease, Web, Glitterdust, Fog Cloud, Benign Transposition ->Baleful Transposition, Dimension Hop->Dimension Step, Wall of Smoke->Cloud of Bewilderment->Stinking Cloud, Sleet Storm, Phantom Steed, Grasping Wall, Bands of Steel, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Dimension Door

The psion side should be a telepath.  Telepath is picked for it effectively gives you back your Enchantment and Illusion, and it provides you the fastest access to Schism

Here are some neccessary powers

If you play with Psycrystals gain feats, make your Psycrystal learn White Raven Tactics at level 10 (plus the pre-requsitie feats).  More actions are good.  You can also make him take Iron Heart Surge at level 12 to end Anti Magic Fields (though it won't help with null magic zones)

----

Level 1

Synchronicity (Complete Psionic p103): Ready an action and use it when you choose.

At first glance this doesn't seem like a good power, you lose a standard action to cast this power but gain a standard action in response (no net gain or loss with the exception of you losing 1 pp).  That is wrong, THIS IS AN AWESOME POWER, for when combine with other powers/feats you gain additional standard actions.  For example if you use Linked Power with it you can cast your Main Power X and next round you get a free standard action to cast another Power Y and all you needed was the linked power feat and 1pp above what Main Power X cost.  Or you can use a metamagic rod of quicken to cast this power as a swift action (and since Synchronicity is a 1st level power the rod is damn cheap.)

Level 3

Sense Danger (Magic of Eberron p106): Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed, and manifest another power as an immediate  action during first round of combat.

This is psionic foresight and contingency (with steroids) all rolled up in one, You cast this power which has duration of 10 mins/level.  During that duration you are not treated as not having your dex modifer at the beginning of combat.  Furthermore you can cast a power with power point cost of 1pp or more if you augment it.  Guess what awesome power is 1pp, Synchronicity.  Guess what Synchronicity does for 1pp you get to cast any other power you know that has a manifesting time of 1 standard action.  In other words you always get to act first (when under the duration of Sense Danger).  Oh it gets even more nasty, as soon as you use your readied action which Synchronicity provides you are no longer flat footed for you have acted in combat.  Thus you can now use Anticipatory Strike (blowing another immediate action, thus you don't get one the next round of combat), and have a full round of actions before your enemy gets to act.  Finally under transparency an incantatrix could use Metamagic Effect to make this power last all day under persistent spell (since the power doesn't discharge)

Level 4

Schism: Your partitioned mind can manifest lower level powers.

More actions are good.  When your second mind can manifest a power have it choose Synchronicity, thus your main mind now manifests the power and thus you can use your full manifester level with schism.

Level 5

Anticipatory Strike (Complete Psionic p78): Take your action out of initiative order.

Some people call this psionic celerity.  As an immediate action you can move your initiative out of order (but only once a round).  Only downside is that you can't be flat footed, well foresight or the more awesome psionic power sense danger fixes that.  So for 9 power points and an immediate action you get to act immediately (with no downsides like being dazed).  Remember you can combine this with Sense Danger+ Synchronicity during the first round of combat.

Level 6

Temporal Acceleration A: Your time frame accelerates for 1 round.

Psionic Timestop, enough said

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Time Hop for more info see here
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Vigor+Psicrystal+Share Pain (unlike a wizard you aren't squishy) just avoid the area of effect spells but that is why you have abrupt jaunt

Ego Whip

Dispel Psionics

Divination, Psionic

[/quote]

[Absolon]

If for some reason your DM doesn't like Factotum for whatever reasons that DMs might not like things, there are two respectable options (in my opinion) that a gestalt wizard can take, both core: Ranger or Monk (Monk gets better if you can use Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius).  You get evasion, all good saves, better number of skills than you had, better BAB, better HP, and various doodads that aren't super great (certainly not Cunning Surge level) but are still better than nothing.

Now, some of you may be scratching your heads about the monk thing, but I look at is as giving a wizard at least as good of an ability to transform into something else and beat the hell out of something as a druid, with some extra tricks like Flurry of Blows with nice buffs that you'd want anyway, like Polymorph/PAO/Shapechange and Bite of the Weresomething.  You don't have to do melee combat, but if you want/need to gish it up because sometimes you want to save your spells because there are time based constraints on your actions (and some DMs and groups frown on distorting time and space to suit only you).

[dna1]

k I skimmed the original post, and didnt really read any reply's. so Im sorry if this has already been said, or I missed a important detail.

K so you want to be a summoner? First off let me assure you that a gestalt wiz/sorc will be about as good as taking a dump on your character sheet. 
it can be done... but it will be stinky and full of corn and peanuts 

moving on..

I would suggest a druid with greenbound summoning. they make for excellent summoners.. But.. idk how the greenbound summoning would work for the wiz summons. thats kind of a interesting idea actually..  the animal companion would be nice to have tho...

feats: (for the wiz)
ocular spell (may or may not be useful for your particular character)
craft contingency (im a contingency whore.. so i use this a lot)
improved initiative (alot of people would say dont waste a feat on this, but i like to go first. to each there own )

im pressed for time so i cant really get into to much detail, but i will read this over better later and possibly post more.
 

[Rebel7284]

Greenbound Summoning doesn't apply to summon monster spells at all.

[Ramaloke]

I am obliged to point out the most arcane arcanist to ever cast a spell as the....

Gestalt Wizard|Artificer.

This guy gets to create any magic items he wants, he can craft any scroll he wants (and can scribe it into his spellbook to prepare later). This build is chocked full of feats. Something like:

Code: [Select]

LEVEL CLASS ONE CLASS TWO          FEATS
LVL01 Artificer 01 Wizard 01       Scribe Scroll, Least Dragonmark (Mark of Making),
                                   Skill Focus (Alchemy), Point Blank Shot
LVL02 Artificer 02 Wizard 02       Brew Potion
LVL03 Artificer 03 Wizard 03       Magical Artisan (Potions), Craft Wondrous Item
LVL04 Artificer 04 Wizard 04       Exceptional Artisan
LVL05 Artificer 05 Wizard 05       Heighten Spell, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
LVL06 Artificer 06 A.Savant 01     Two Weapon Fighting
LVL07 Artificer 07 A.Savant 02     Craft Wand
LVL08 Artificer 08 A.Savant 03     Legendary Artisan
LVL09 Artificer 09 A.Savant 04     Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Craft Rod
LVL10 Artificer 10 A.Savant 05     -
LVL11 Artificer 11 M. Alchemist 01 -
LVL12 Artificer 12 M. Alchemist 02 Craft Contingent Spell, Extraordinary Artisan, Craft Staff
LVL13 Artificer 13 M. Alchemist 03 -
LVL14 Artificer 14 M. Alchemist 04 Forge Ring
LVL15 Artificer 15 M. Alchemist 05 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
LVL16 Artificer 16 M. Alchemist 06 Extraordinary Artisan
LVL17 Artificer 17 M. Alchemist 07 -
LVL18 Artificer 18 M. Alchemist 08 Quicken Spell
LVL19 Artificer 19 M. Alchemist 09 -
LVL20 Artificer 20 M. Alchemist 10 Extra Rings
This is just an example build that I pulled out of one of my cluttered text files (thoughtfully named "thoughtpile" 1-7), but the basic shtick with this one is he (she?) can craft potions containing 9th level spells, and can throw 4 of them a round, and cast a quickened spell.