Author Topic: Building a powerful "core" druid...  (Read 17338 times)

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bkdubs123

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2010, 12:12:33 AM »
Note bolded parts.

1) Are you trying to argue that if he saves against the Suggestion effect he is immune for 24 hours? Because it only says that about the Fascinate part. It's arguable, but technically the Bard can continue the Fascinate and Suggest at will until it works. Over and over.

2) Ah, well shucks. I had thought asking them to do something obviously harmful just gave them a bonus to their saving throw. But still, with an infinite number of Suggestions and some creative thinking even "reasonable" suggestions are going to eventually kill the Druid. The PHB even gives an example of very lethal type of suggestion that is "legit" - telling them to take a refreshing dip in a pool of acid.

Solo

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2010, 01:05:36 AM »
1) Are you trying to argue that if he saves against the Suggestion effect he is immune for 24 hours? Because it only says that about the Fascinate part. It's arguable, but technically the Bard can continue the Fascinate and Suggest at will until it works. Over and over.
I'm just saying that you don't automatically become Suggestion fodder when Fascinated. The Bard has to overcome your considerable will save. And as for doing to over and over, he can only do it for as long as he can perform. I'm just going to say that people can't really perform all day, and if the DM rules that the bard can, that's blatant favoritism.


Quote
2) Ah, well shucks. I had thought asking them to do something obviously harmful just gave them a bonus to their saving throw. But still, with an infinite number of Suggestions and some creative thinking even "reasonable" suggestions are going to eventually kill the Druid. The PHB even gives an example of very lethal type of suggestion that is "legit" - telling them to take a refreshing dip in a pool of acid.
1d6 damage, breaks effect.

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bkdubs123

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2010, 01:17:38 AM »
1) Are you trying to argue that if he saves against the Suggestion effect he is immune for 24 hours? Because it only says that about the Fascinate part. It's arguable, but technically the Bard can continue the Fascinate and Suggest at will until it works. Over and over.
I'm just saying that you don't automatically become Suggestion fodder when Fascinated. The Bard has to overcome your considerable will save. And as for doing to over and over, he can only do it for as long as he can perform. I'm just going to say that people can't really perform all day, and if the DM rules that the bard can, that's blatant favoritism.

I'd agree with you there, but I'm just trying to give a heads up to Chuck here. When I hear "I'll totally stomp your Druid with my Core Bard" this is the kind of junk I'm expecting.

Quote from: Solo
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2) Ah, well shucks. I had thought asking them to do something obviously harmful just gave them a bonus to their saving throw. But still, with an infinite number of Suggestions and some creative thinking even "reasonable" suggestions are going to eventually kill the Druid. The PHB even gives an example of very lethal type of suggestion that is "legit" - telling them to take a refreshing dip in a pool of acid.
1d6 damage, breaks effect.

Very arguable, and pretty much up to the DM. The spell says "asking" them to do something obviously harmful breaks it. It makes no mention of it breaking the effect if they are harmed as a result of a "reasonable" suggestion that they succumb to. However, depending on the nature of the suggestion it might end up granting them an extra save against the Fascinate effect, however it isn't likely to succeed and even if it does, that's the end of the Druid's turn and the Bard just has to spend one more Bardic Music to begin again (and he's got a whole lot of these).

charleskoz

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2010, 09:15:54 PM »
So, at 20th level, a Bard with 23 ranks in Perform, 32 Charisma, a masterwork instrument, and Skill Focus (Perform) has +39 to his Perform skill check before he even rolls, so good luck making that Will save. Further, the Mass Suggestion effects don't even use up his Bardic Music uses, so he uses one for Fascinate, which you will fail the save to, then he proceeds to pile Mass Suggestions on you and your Animal Companion until you kill each other or yourselves. The save DC for those are normal (10+1/2 Bard Level+Charisma modifier), but since they don't break the Fascinate effect, and since he can do it at will, you'll eventually lose.
Thanks for the explanation.

I doubt he would try that. He's not malicious, and he has a strong sense of fairness -- winning that way wouldn't really prove anything other than that bards have a broken ability. Same reason I am trying to win without using Shapechange, or other cheesy moves like summoning a swarm of invisible pixies casting Otto's Irresistible Dance. :)

bkdubs123

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2010, 04:57:16 AM »
summoning a swarm of invisible pixies casting Otto's Irresistible Dance. :)

Aha! Now you're talkin'!

charleskoz

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2010, 04:34:35 PM »
Still working on this, going to try another skirmish this evening.

I'm trying to find some decent core-only high-level wild shape forms and not doing too well. Already done the dinosaurs, someone said there were better options, any suggestions?

Thanks. :)

Solo

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2010, 04:50:15 PM »
Treant?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

charleskoz

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2010, 05:14:49 PM »
Looks pretty weak. I'm going to be trying to hit things possibly with ACs over 40.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2010, 06:47:33 PM »
Looks pretty weak. I'm going to be trying to hit things possibly with ACs over 40.

Shouldn't be a problem. You do use your own BAB after all, + lots of buffs.
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