Author Topic: Building a powerful "core" druid...  (Read 17337 times)

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charleskoz

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Building a powerful "core" druid...
« on: October 05, 2010, 06:23:40 PM »
Hi there...

I'm an oldtimer who now plays D&D with his family. My eldest son is the DM.

Anyway, while putting together a character I happened to do some reading online and found a thread somewhere that ranked different character classes based on a "tier" system. I was surprised to find druids in the top tier of characters.

I always thought of druids as not being particularly impressive. And my son the DM, when I told him about this, scoffed openly, insisting that druids "sucked" and anyone who thought otherwise didn't know what they were doing.

He's a pretty smart guy and knows D&D pretty well, but I'd like to prove him wrong and learn a thing or two myself. So how do I make an "overpowered" druid build that will impress him?

Basic parameters: "core of core" only: just PH, DMG, MM1. Level 20 straight druid, I'm assuming the normal "wealth" buy.

There's no campaign here, it's just going to be probably some skirmishes and encounters.

I'm going to avoid anything that seems too cheesy (IMO) like having animal companions put on magic items after I wild shape.

Hoping for advice not just on build stuff like feats and spells, but also technique... what are the tips and tricks I wouldn't know, having never been a druid before?

Thanks. :)

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2010, 06:31:20 PM »
first and foremost get natural spell at lvl 6. after that look here

as a side note this probably should have been started in the Char. Op. section since this one is primarily for rules debate and discussion.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

charleskoz

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2010, 06:36:31 PM »
Sorry about the forum, newb error there, maybe someone can move it?

Thanks for the link, have read the handbook. It's of some value to me, though most of what it suggests requires other books, and there's not a lot on strategy there (which is where I need the most help.)

Thanks again.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2010, 06:41:01 PM »
I'm going to avoid anything that seems too cheesy (IMO) like having animal companions put on magic items after I wild shape.
What about putting them on yourself? An ape should certainly be able to wear any items a human could, and that is a decent wild shape form. If you're refusing to wear magic items while wildshaped, you're just willfully gimping yourself.

Quote
Hoping for advice not just on build stuff like feats and spells, but also technique... what are the tips and tricks I wouldn't know, having never been a druid before?
Take Natural Spell, and open up with Entangle. Also, equip your animal companion with at least basic barding. That's about all you need to know.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2010, 06:43:11 PM »
Hm. Entangle at level 20?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2010, 06:49:08 PM »
other tips include trying to manipulate the battlefield with your spells and not falling into the trap of trying to heal in combat. If you save your ally 1 round of attacks by killing the enemy then you have saved yourself a few spells for healing.

Early on take a dog or wolf as your AC and have it trip everything, this will make your life much easier. After that pick good wildshape forms for what you want to do: ape for keeping your gear, bear for smashing, croc for grappling, birds for dropping spells from out of reach, etc... The handbook will help with letting you know what may stand out with this.

for items Wild armor is a good choice so it applies your armor bonus in any form. Prayerbead Karma is a solid CL booster. beyond that it is preference since druids aren't very item dependent. Though orb of storms combined with call lightning is flavorful, if not the most powerful option. Also shapechange is the I win button once you get to 17th level. Turn into the biggest meanest thing you can and rip faces off, or use all of the monster's powers since it gives pretty much all of them to you.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 06:51:49 PM »
Hm. Entangle at level 20?
Sure. Why not? It's still a decent BFC spell against a lot of enemies. I guess he could be casting Shapechange at this point, though, and just forget all about Wildshape. He can also share it with his companion. What's better than one pit fiend on your team? Two, of course.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 06:54:11 PM »
Hm. Entangle at level 20?
Sure. Why not? It's still a decent BFC spell against a lot of enemies. I guess he could be casting Shapechange at this point, though, and just forget all about Wildshape. He can also share it with his companion. What's better than one pit fiend on your team? Two, of course.
My archivist used it to turn into a green dragon (hardest hitting thing i could turn into at my CL) and tore the Tarrasque down in about 2 rounds with help from the rest of the less than optimized party.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

bkdubs123

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 06:56:00 PM »
I assume you're looking at starting at 1st level character? If not, what level will you be starting the game, or is this just a 20th level core druid build to show your son?

If you are starting at 1st level than, yes, before a Druid gets wildshape he's essentially a dude with lackluster spells and an Animal Companion. That said, your Animal Companion is still a better warrior than a 1st level Fighter.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 07:16:44 PM »

At level 20th huh? Will you have time to buff before combat?

Natural Spell at 6th of course. Take Quicken, you'll only be able to cast 5th level spells with it but its still action economy, and there aren't too many must have Druid feats anyway. Improved initiative is a must too. Not sure what the best items are to raise your initiative, but get what you find, a good initiative counts for a lot.

You should always be in Wild Shape at this level, and have gear in your primary WS form. An interesting tactic is to be in the same form as your Animal Companion at lower levels, especially if you summon a few of the same type of creatures before combat. Doesn't do much versus enemies who have access to divination magic though.

Depending on what you see in combat, open up with Repel Earth and Stone versus PC types, this will also tell you if theres an antimagic field up since that'll be the only thing unaffected. If they try to dispel your spell, go ahead, quicken your dispell to counter theirs. I they don't, Baleful Transmute the big whoevers not being pushed back.

If its a big monster or a army of little monsters, cast Reverse Gravity, then quicken a Ice Storm.

If you see nothing at all, cast True seeing, and react accordingly.

Second round I'd recommend throwing on Shapechange and go CODzilla on whatever is in your way. Remember to share it with your Animal Companion.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 07:24:44 PM »
snapshot ideas:
lvl 1; riding dog AC tripping people, you use a weapon of choice to beat them with, entangle to control groups or fast enemies. Shillelagh is ok but likely not worth it. Similar tactics hold until level 5 except now you have soften earth and stone to further impede your enemies.

lvl5; you now have wild shape and it lasts for hours use it. Preferable form right now would be Dire Ape and start using a large weapon in this form. Club works and now Shillelagh isn't a bad choice since you will likely be able to spare the lvl 1 slot. You can have changed your animal companion by now, Bears are popular choices. the call lightning bird trick is fun as well if you want to stay out of harms way.

lvl9; You have just become immune to poison so coat everything with it. a good choice would be to use animal empathy/handle animal to make a venomous snake fanatical to you and milk it daily until you can coat any slashing or piercing weapons you have with it.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

veekie

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2010, 04:34:07 AM »
That said, even wild shaped with no magical equipment can kick a LOT of ass. Picking the right companion and form for the level is half the battle.
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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[/spoiler]

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Solo

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2010, 04:49:21 AM »
I think he requires more detailed information.


"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

veekie

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2010, 05:00:43 AM »
Well, this should cover the thorough version.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Solo

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2010, 05:09:38 AM »
That's already been linked to.

I was thinking things like specific tactics for level 20 play, such as what forms are good for wildshaping, Shapechange, and what spell combos.

Ie: Wildshape into bear, Shapechange into a Choker, have Fire Seeds memorized.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

charleskoz

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2010, 09:29:27 AM »
Thanks for the replies. And Solo, thanks for "grokking" what I'm after. :)

Had a couple of people recommend turning into a choker now... not sure I get how that's going to help me against level 20 difficulty enemies...

Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2010, 10:12:09 AM »
Thanks for the replies. And Solo, thanks for "grokking" what I'm after. :)

Had a couple of people recommend turning into a choker now... not sure I get how that's going to help me against level 20 difficulty enemies...
Not just turning into a shapechanger... let me lay it out, as I've understood it.

Wildshape into something nasty. Solo recommends a bear, cause of their nice str score. See the bear. See it's score? That's good, and frankly we can get it higher, but let's leave it for now.

So now, in a form you'll be able to stay in all day, you've got some sick stats, low-light vision, scent (both of which are kinda sweet, I suppose...), and some nice natural attacks to do with that str score. Not shabby at all, alone. But now, you use shapechange, a spell, where you...

Quote from: Srd; Shapechange
You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

Uh-oh, lose out on the bears..... nope, you keep his improved grab, cause it's an extraordinary ability. But the choker gets it better, so you take that. With the choker you get....

Quote
Constrict (Ex)Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a choker must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Chokers receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks, which is already included in the statistics block.

Oh, yay, you grapple nicely now. That'll screw some things over, if only grappling didn't kinda suck-OHMYGODWHAT?!
Quote
Quickness (Su)
Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round.

Yes, you get extra actions a turn. This ability to break the action economy is up there for the most coveted and broken skill in the game.

Now, with melee, you can grapple and crush the hell out of anything. Correction, you can attack, start grappling as a free action, which you'll win due to a racial bonus from choker and the ridiculous strength score from the bear, and which does more damage as you constrict them. And with extra actions a round, you can move faster, hit two guys to grapple, all that jazz...

But oh, wait. You can cast spells. Spells break the game, and so far today you've only used one of your 9th level on shapechange, which, granted, you should probably find a way of lasting longer, since it only lasts 3.3 hours (200 minutes) at a time as is... poor you. But you have the natural spell feat; in this badass form, you can cast spells too. Except, you have an extra standard action. Which means any standard-action spells? You can cast two a round. Casting two spells in a round is, in case it didn't go over, kinda friggin powerful, and just super fun.

Let's see the wizard get all this crap with just one spell and one class feature useage a day (no, UMDing for another spell from a device doesn't count as a class feature!).

And just FYI, I suck at using druids.  :p
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:16:46 AM by Flay Crimsonwind »

bkdubs123

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2010, 03:44:30 PM »
Choker would be really nice, but I think you're forgetting that he's limited to core. So, sure he can "spam" two standard action spells per round, but his only good ones are Finger of Death, Earthquake, Whirlwind, and maybe Baleful Polymorph. And when it comes to spells per day, Druids don't win any awards. He doesn't have any good ways to get those save DCs up, and monsters have pretty great Fort saves last time I checked.

In core he can't Wild Shape into anything to gain better spellcasting, and he can't cast anything truly impressive like Word of Balance, Red Tide, Storm Rage, Cast in Stone, or Nature's Avatar.

His options are intensely limited. The best high level forms I could find were Tyrannosaurus (because of the Str, improved grab, and swallow whole), and an Advanced 16HD Huge Assassin Vine (at-will, supernatural, wisdom-based save DC Entangle; Constrict, and Blindsight).

Of course with Shapechange he could technically become something with real spellcasting depending on how the DM ruled it (I'm not expecting a favorable ruling, though). But even still, an Adult Red Dragon or Balor are nothing to sneeze at.

However, compared to the things a Cleric, Wizard, or Sorcerer can do, none of this seems impressive to me. Yes, he can deal more damage per round than a Raging, Power-Attacking Barbarian, but... what spellcaster can't?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 03:56:06 PM by bkdubs123 »

Prime32

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2010, 03:48:06 PM »
Remember that your Str and Dex aren't important, since they're replaced by your WS form's anyway. Put your highest scores into Wis and Con. Depending on what form you use, invest in a monk's belt so that you add Wis to AC. Ioun stones float around your head, so changing shape won't interfere with them.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 03:53:43 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Building a powerful "core" druid...
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2010, 05:27:40 PM »
Actually, you take the Con score of the new form also. Now, is it just me or is there nothing in the description of either Wild Shape or Polymorph that says your gear merges with your form or anything like that. So, sure, if your gear no longer fits you it falls off, but if it does...

20th level characters are expected to have 760,000GP worth of stuff. so let's gear up!

Since you're a Druid and you Wildshape all the time, the only stat you care about is Wisdom. With a standard 32 point buy this gives us starting abilities of:

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 12

Given 5 inherent ability score bonuses from levels that brings us to Wis 23.

With character wealth we buy a +5 Tome of Understanding bringing our score to a more respectable 28 (cost 137,500gp). Remaining wealth = 622,500gp. Tack on a 8,000gp Incandescent Blue Ioun stone for +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom and we're up to Wis 30, which is about where we want it. Remaining wealth = 614, 500gp.

Rings are nifty if you WS into Dire Apes or Chokers a lot because you'll get to keep wearing them. But the only ones that are really interesting are Counterspelling, Spell Turning, and Three Wishes.

Let's go in for a Monk's Belt though. That'll give us +11 to AC in any form for a bargain price of 13,000gp. Remaining wealth = 601,500gp.

Druid's Vestment costs 10,000gp and is the only core method of gaining additional uses of Wild Shape, albeit, just 1 extra. But we'll take it. Remaining wealth = 591,500gp.

Scarabs of Protection, 38,000gp, are useful since they grant some immunity against the nastier effects in the game and because you'll still get to wear them in wild shaped forms. Just pick up one for now and save some gold (you aren't in especial need of gear). Remaining wealth = 553, 500gp.

Anything else you buy will be for your normal form, and any humanoid, and/or vaguely human shaped forms. You could invest in a Ring of Protection +5, Bracers of Armor +8, and a Periapt of Wisdom +6 if you choose (total cost 50,000 +64,000 + 36,000 or 150,000gp). You might also buy a few Pearls of Power for extra spell slots per day. If you bought one for 7th level spells, one for 8th, one for 9th, and one for recalling two spells of 6th level or lower, as well as the other items that'll take you down to a remaining wealth of 139,500gp. Not too shabby.

Let's begin the build.

Since you don't care about feats as a Druid, let's go ahead and be a Dwarf, because +2 to saves vs spells is nice. The boost to Con is welcome in your natural form, and the penalty to Cha really doesn't matter. As far as feats go Combat Casting and Improved Initiative are musts, as is Natural Spell. That takes up our 1st, 3rd, and 6th level feat slots. Power Attack might come in handy while in a powerful form, but your DM might not let you take it because you only have Str 13 while Wild Shaped. To get your spells' save DCs up though you can take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus a few times. You don't really need other feats, except maybe Heighten Spell to use with Baleful Polymorph (though it's somewhat unnecessary). But Finger of Death will be your bread and butter when going the Choker route, so pick up Spell Focus (Necromancy) and Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) at the very least. The other feats are up to you. The save DC for your Finger of Death will now be 32 if you're in natural or Choker form, 30 if you're a dinosaur or assassin vine.

As far as spells to prepare, your 9th level ones aren't very good, so 4 Shapechange seems fitting. You can use the extra slot for Storm of Vengeance or Antipathy (or something). 8th level has a few nice spells and you have 2 bonus spells from a high Wisdom, Finger of Death is great, so you want 4 of those, but with the other slots look into Word of Recall, Reverse Gravity, or Repel Metal and Stone. At 7th level, Control Weather, Creeping Doom, Heal, and True Seeing are all good. At 6th level Greater Dispel Magic is always good, and Find the Path, Fire Seeds, and Antilife Shell have their uses.

Here's a character sheet, for easy reference: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=245387

EDIT: I had to scrub a couple totally awesome tactics because Druid spells completely suck. Anyway, everything else above still applies.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 05:33:11 PM by bkdubs123 »