Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Forgot your masterwork sheath for iaijutsu.

[X-Codes]

Edit: I "broke the spirit of the game" all of this shit would be banned in a real game, Beguilers are better than Favored Souls, etc.

I lol'd.

Instead of the Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Improved Initiative, get Shape Soulmeld (Mage's Spectacles) and a scroll of Power Word: Kill.  The Monk would need a Con of 18 to even have a chance of getting over 100 HP.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you have flaws available, you need to take the best feat ever.

Blessed By Tem-Et-Nu.

There is none better.

[Bozwevial]

If you have flaws available, you need to take the best feat ever.

Blessed By Tem-Et-Nu.

There is none better.

Bonus points if this feat actually leads to your victory. UMD Gate in an advanced Hippo with templates thrown all over it, then stand there in triumph as it savages your monk opponent. Or wallows in a river.

[Maat_Mons]

[X-Codes]

No, read magic means a Wizard can still identify which of his scrolls is a Gate scroll and drop a balor on the Monk's head, so that one has to go, too.

[Flay Crimsonwind]

One might wonder why the argument is "I'll bet I can beat someone in my tier level, that'll show 'em monks should be higher!" as opposed to "I'll bet I can beat someone one tier above my tier level, that'll show 'em monks should be higher!"

[Saxony]

One might wonder why the argument is "I'll bet I can beat someone in my tier level, that'll show 'em monks should be higher!" as opposed to "I'll bet I can beat someone one tier above my tier level, that'll show 'em monks should be higher!"

Desire for low hanging fruit and lazy intelligence.

Because the player in question thinks Monks are good, I expect intellectual laziness or irrational thought. If the player wasn't intellectually lazy, they would have already figured out Monks are stupid. Monk-believers being intellectually lazy is the only sensible possibility unless they can selectively turn off their intelligence when thinking about Monks.

[Sobolev]

*snip*

Are two flaws allowed?

Also, you might want to do a tad more item optimization.  Parrying, Eager, spell storing.  Consider a few more weapons that can provide passive benefits on your person: Gauntlet, Spiked Gauntlet, Poison Ring, etc.  Consider instead of a wand of Cure Light Wounds, a wand of Faith Healing of your deity.  Get a Targath Arrow, some spell storing arrows or darts with a spell you paid someone to cast into it, Dust Eggshell Grenades, torch bug paste, stuff like that.

Eh, I figured since it was Monk vs Expert item optimization wasn't too necessary and might annoy him more anyway.  I gave myself some Armor Spikes of Rocket Tag and a Wand to show that I could heal people just about as well as the terrible monk ability.  Other items were just for fun, except for the Masterwork Pillow (+2 on Lucid Dreaming) which I thought was hilarious.  I basically told my arguing opponent to shove it last night since he was being so absurd.  As I hinted at in my edit the argument then turned in to Beguilers have a SoD at level 1, so clearly they're better than favored soul (Sometimes I can't tell if he's joking, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't).  I responded with "Favored Souls have access to all Cleric spells", his response "Cleric spells are good, but Arcanist spells are great and Beguilers get plenty of those spells, etc".  "Also, spell lists don't matter because UMD is a class skill for Beguilers!"

He specifically zoomed in on Spell Level 2, which I personally always have a hard time thinking of Cleric spells for but I mentioned like Augury, Shatter, Elation, some buffs, Lore of the Gods.  And he felt even though the only good level 2 Beguiler spell is Glitterdust, it's better than all those, so Beguilers are better.

I think I give up.  It's a lost cause.

Edit: I have spent the most effort of any character on this character.  That's sort of sad.

Double Edit: Mage Spectacles would give me what?  a 27?  So 10+ to activate a level 9 spell scroll?  That's not too bad I suppose.

[Saxony]

Other items were just for fun, except for the Masterwork Pillow (+2 on Lucid Dreaming) which I thought was hilarious.

[ImmortalSoul]

Well, even if your argument was kind of futile in the end, I for one would like to thank you for the work, because I learned quite a lot by looking up the stuff everyone brought up.

[carnivore]

i dont believe that this has proven anything .... except that Spells are Strong ....

why didnt the Monk player just do this:

Kalashtar
Monk 10

Attributes:
10 Str
20 Dex(16 base +2 lvls +2 Item)
14 Con
10 Int
10 Wis
18 Cha(16 base +2 item)

Feats:
1st lvl: Nymphs Kiss
3rd lvl: Skill Knowledge(UMD)
6th lvl: Wand Strike
9th lvl: Hardened Criminal(Immune to Intimidate Skill and can Take 10 with: UMD)

Bonus Monk Feats:
Imp Unarmed Strike
Weapon Finnesse(Sleeping Tiger)
Imp Initiative(Sleeping Tiger)
Imp Disarm(regular)

just have him cast spells from Scrolls and use Wands to make Melee Touch attacks ... since he would have +14 Initiative Minimum

he should have little trouble dealing with the Expert ... he is immune to Dreaming since he doesnt dream, and is Immune to Intimidate... and would have everything that the Expert can have and More, since he doesnt rely on Equipment

to me this still does not show the relative Strengths or Weaknesses of either Class.... all it shows is: "if you buy the right stuff you win"

 

[X-Codes]

*snip*

My question is: is he still more than a bite-sized snack for the Expert's pet Roc?

By the way, Wraithstrike can't be used effectively from items.  It's always a standard action to use a wand or scroll, even if the spell within is normally a swift action.

[Epimetheus]

to me this still does not show the relative Strengths or Weaknesses of either Class.... all it shows is: "if you buy the right stuff you win"

Agreed. Go UMD!

[snakeman830]

*snip*

My question is: is he still more than a bite-sized snack for the Expert's pet Roc?

By the way, Wraithstrike can't be used effectively from items.  It's always a standard action to use a wand or scroll, even if the spell within is normally a swift action.

Rules Compendium changed this.  It is now whatever action it is to cast the spell, unless stated otherwise.

[X-Codes]

*snip*

My question is: is he still more than a bite-sized snack for the Expert's pet Roc?

By the way, Wraithstrike can't be used effectively from items.  It's always a standard action to use a wand or scroll, even if the spell within is normally a swift action.

Rules Compendium changed this.  It is now whatever action it is to cast the spell, unless stated otherwise.

Eeehh... Even if the casting time is 10 minutes?

[snakeman830]

Correct, although even under the original rules that would have been the case.

[carnivore]

*snip*

My question is: is he still more than a bite-sized snack for the Expert's pet Roc?

By the way, Wraithstrike can't be used effectively from items.  It's always a standard action to use a wand or scroll, even if the spell within is normally a swift action.

he doesnt use Wraithstrike ..... he uses Wand Strike.... much better, notice:


Wandstrike[General](CArc p84)req:4 ranks Use Magic Device
You may make a Melee Touch Attack with a Wand which does 1d6 damage & consumes 1 charge. Since it is a touch attack, you may not apply extra damage bonuses (such as your Strength modifier) or bonus dice (such as Sneak Attack or Smite enemy).

[The_Mad_Linguist]

And while UMD is an expert class feature, it isn't a monk class feature.


Also the melee touch attack.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eh, I figured since it was Monk vs Expert item optimization wasn't too necessary and might annoy him more anyway.  I gave myself some Armor Spikes of Rocket Tag and a Wand to show that I could heal people just about as well as the terrible monk ability.  Other items were just for fun, except for the Masterwork Pillow (+2 on Lucid Dreaming) which I thought was hilarious.  I basically told my arguing opponent to shove it last night since he was being so absurd.  As I hinted at in my edit the argument then turned in to Beguilers have a SoD at level 1, so clearly they're better than favored soul (Sometimes I can't tell if he's joking, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't).  I responded with "Favored Souls have access to all Cleric spells", his response "Cleric spells are good, but Arcanist spells are great and Beguilers get plenty of those spells, etc".  "Also, spell lists don't matter because UMD is a class skill for Beguilers!"

He specifically zoomed in on Spell Level 2, which I personally always have a hard time thinking of Cleric spells for but I mentioned like Augury, Shatter, Elation, some buffs, Lore of the Gods.  And he felt even though the only good level 2 Beguiler spell is Glitterdust, it's better than all those, so Beguilers are better.

I think I give up.  It's a lost cause.

Edit: I have spent the most effort of any character on this character.  That's sort of sad.

Double Edit: Mage Spectacles would give me what?  a 27?  So 10+ to activate a level 9 spell scroll?  That's not too bad I suppose.

So could you tell us how it went in a little bit more detail? What happened? Did you do any tests?