Author Topic: Expert vs Monk Challenge!  (Read 151474 times)

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Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #660 on: June 21, 2011, 06:15:21 PM »
Why would it be unfair to the monk since the monk does not have MAD?
???
Where did I say that a monk doesn't have MAD? you're confusing me with one of the monk fanbois.
Shhh, I was hoping to bait them.

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ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #661 on: June 21, 2011, 06:24:27 PM »
Why would it be unfair to the monk since the monk does not have MAD?
???
Where did I say that a monk doesn't have MAD? you're confusing me with one of the monk fanbois.
Shhh, I was hoping to bait them.
That's no concern of mine. Take your trolling elsewhere.
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

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I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #662 on: June 21, 2011, 06:28:00 PM »
No

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #663 on: June 21, 2011, 06:40:53 PM »
@ JaronK
Gonna be hard, but okay. I've got no illusions that monks aren't weak, but IMO it is a little exagerrated.
 So I can use 32 pb and make, lets say, 10th level Monk and then someone willing will make an Expert with the same level and pb to prove that the Expert is better? Sounds good.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #664 on: June 21, 2011, 07:10:29 PM »
@ JaronK
Gonna be hard, but okay. I've got no illusions that monks aren't weak, but IMO it is a little exagerrated.
 So I can use 32 pb and make, lets say, 10th level Monk and then someone willing will make an Expert with the same level and pb to prove that the Expert is better? Sounds good.
Part of the problem is that monk doesn't work well with low PB, while expert totally can.

That's the issue with MAD, after all.
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JaronK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #665 on: June 21, 2011, 07:28:17 PM »
@ JaronK
Gonna be hard, but okay. I've got no illusions that monks aren't weak, but IMO it is a little exagerrated.
 So I can use 32 pb and make, lets say, 10th level Monk and then someone willing will make an Expert with the same level and pb to prove that the Expert is better? Sounds good.

They're same tier, so really the goal is "close enough that the two could be in the same party without one being obviously overwhelmed by the other."  As long as the end result is two characters that seem like they belong in the same party (or at least, could belong in the same party) we're good.

And yeah, you could do it 32 Point Buy, as long as you're not trying to deny that Monks do need a high point buy.

I admit I was horribly tempted to make a VoP/VoPeace Expert Diplomacer, but that would be wrong. 

JaronK

lans

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #666 on: June 21, 2011, 07:35:27 PM »
Also, please note:
Quote
Combat reflexes is meaningless to you due to your dex mod. Still just one AoO.
Invisible fist wont ever grant you etherealness, you just threw away the best part of that ACF.
Invisible Fist is good (sure if you have 12+ Wis it's good, but with 8 wisdom it doesn't do anything worthwhile).
I think the etheralness has a 1 round minimum, and Combat Reflexes still lets him take AoOs while flat footed.

Anyway, other people have done a decent job of pointing out the flaws in Giacomo's nonsense... I'm AFB right now so I can't refute it properly at this time, but I'll hit the "double standard" bit.  Though doesn't Skill Prodigy require being level 1?  If so, what's the point of the +2 Int item, which doesn't give skillpoints either?

I haven't seen the text, but I'm assuming its just more effective at level 1.  Otherwise you have the 1st two levels with the skills as cross classed.

So, have we all agreed at this point that Giacomo's plan of using Skill Prodigy to emulate skills while pumping Int and thus tanking other needed scores does not in fact work well for a Monk at all?

JaronK
Not at 22 PB, but with higher PBs it becomes more viable. Also becomes more viable if a monk can shore up its weaknesses.

What would your build look like with a 32PB, and 2 flaws?
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dark_samuari

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #667 on: June 21, 2011, 07:49:47 PM »
I admit I was horribly tempted to make a VoP/VoPeace Expert Diplomacer, but that would be wrong. 

JaronK

Please make an enlightened one.

JaronK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #668 on: June 21, 2011, 09:15:40 PM »
Hey, just realized a VoP/VoPeace expert could be really good, using Intimidate and Diplomacy while enemies are stopped in their tracks.

As for my other build, with two extra feats I guess I'd go with Master of Poisons and Item Familiar (if that's not too cheesy, it's just to boost Iaijutsu Focus... if that seems too much, then go with Darkstalker).  With higher point buy, I'd probably raise Int by 2 and Dex by 2, not sure what else though.  Don't really need a lot of stats with that build.

JaronK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #669 on: June 21, 2011, 09:30:30 PM »
hmm ... Monk with Touch Of Golden Ice
could go like Carnivore's Pyrokineticist approach.
Jacking the saves up, etc. trying to turn it into a save-or-die.

Same problem of Closing The Gap, to then tag the poison attacks.
You're basically handing a few rounds of ranged attacks, to the other guy.
And it only works on evil.
 :scared

dark_samuari

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #670 on: June 21, 2011, 11:33:29 PM »
I'm going to re-post this as I feel it is an adequate (or at least worth-while attempt) at a monk build that utilizes monk class abilities in conjunction with some other non-monkish features/tactics.


The Shade: Male Ghostwise Halfling Monk 7; CR 7; Medium Humanoid (Halfling); HD 5d6+2/2d8+2; hp 45; Init +3; Spd 40 ft.; AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 11; Base Atk +5; Grp +1; Atk +9 melee (1d6+0/x2; unarmed strike) or +9 melee (1d3+0/x2; 10ft.; sai) or +10 ranged (1/x2; 10ft.; shurkin); SA Skirmish (+1d6 & +1 AC); SQ Speak Without Sound (20ft. telepathy towards one person), Darkvision (60ft.), Invisible Fist (1/4 rounds invisibility), Still Mind, Shadow Blend and Blur of Motion; AL LG; SV Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7; Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10.
Skills, Skill Tricks and Feats: Balance +5 (0 ranks +3 dex +2 synergy), Bluff +1 (1 rank +0 cha), Climb +4 (2 ranks +0 str +2 racial), Craft (Poison) +8 (7 ranks +1 int), Disguise +1 (1 rank +0 cha), Hide +13 (10 ranks +3 dex +4 size bonus), Intimidate +11 (9 ranks +0 cha +2 apprentice bonus), Jump +13 (5 ranks +0 str +2 synergy +2 racial +4 speed), Knowledge (Local) +12 (10 ranks +1 int +1 specialized), Move Silently +14 (9 ranks +3 dex +2 racial), Profession (Merchant) +4 (2 ranks +2 wis), Read/Write/Speak (Common, Halfling and Sylvan) and Tumble +15 (10 ranks +3 dex +2 synergy); Collector of Stories; Apprentice (Soldier), Combat Reflexes, Favored in House, Improved Unarmed Strike, Knowledge Devotion, Master of Poisons and Mindsight.
Traits & Flaws: Specialized (Knowledge: Local); Inattentive & Unreactive
VariantsIn a non-sunlit room within the city against humanoids
AC 22 (10 +1 size +3 dexterity +1 monk bonus +2 wisdom +4 total defense) [Total Concealment is also in effect so flip a coin...]    
Attack +12 (+5 BaB +1 size bonus +3 weapon finesse +3 knowledge devotion [he'll easily be hitting 26 by this level])
Damage +5 & purple worm poison (1d3[2 average] +0 strength +3 knowledge devotion with purple worm poison)        

So we end up with a guy who, honestly, can't hit for a whole lot of damage but if he lands his blow begins to inflict some nasty poison. In addition his defense is hurting too difficult (this is after all without any magic items factored in) so he can continue to dance with his foes until he lands something.

ADAPTATION
If the flavor and mechanics surrounding using a Ghostwise Halfling don't work for you the build is easily adapted to using the Jungle Halfling from Unearthed Arcana, which means The Shade loses Mindsight but picks up two open feat spaces & a legitimate ranged combat option in the form of a shortbow.  
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 12:12:38 AM by dark_samuari »

JaronK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #671 on: June 22, 2011, 12:01:13 AM »
So he's spending a lot of money on poisons... that doesn't seem like a good plan in the long run.  Have you worried about other gear?

JaronK

dark_samuari

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #672 on: June 22, 2011, 12:11:04 AM »
So he's spending a lot of money on poisons... that doesn't seem like a good plan in the long run.  Have you worried about other gear?

JaronK

Poison merely serves as a secondary option but there is always the option of trading out Favored in House for Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation). I haven't placed much emphasis on other gear to be honest though.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #673 on: June 22, 2011, 04:35:11 AM »
Why hasn't anyone thought to make a monk using Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike) or Item Familiar (Unarmed Strike)?

Give it Throwing, Returning, Distance, Morphing, Sizing, Collision...

Turn that flurry of blows into a flurry of throws and be awesome.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #674 on: June 22, 2011, 04:46:03 AM »
Why hasn't anyone thought to make a monk using Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike) or Item Familiar (Unarmed Strike)?

Give it Throwing, Returning, Distance, Morphing, Sizing, Collision...

Turn that flurry of blows into a flurry of throws and be awesome.
Because I didn't want to go down that road of horrors. Also if PAO is supposed to be off limits (to which I agree), Morphing/Sizing should probably be too. You do of course point out some of the highlights of being a living weapon.



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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #675 on: June 22, 2011, 04:48:22 AM »
Why hasn't anyone thought to make a monk using Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike) or Item Familiar (Unarmed Strike)?

Give it Throwing, Returning, Distance, Morphing, Sizing, Collision...

Turn that flurry of blows into a flurry of throws and be awesome.
Because I didn't want to go down that road of horrors. Also if PAO is supposed to be off limits (to which I agree), Morphing/Sizing should probably be too. You do of course point out some of the highlights of being a living weapon.
Admit it: you would have, if you'd thought of it first.

After all, it DOES showcase one of the monk's class features, and quite well.

It exploits the weird wording on the monk's unarmed strike, and uses it to its full measure.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #676 on: June 22, 2011, 08:52:43 AM »
Why hasn't anyone thought to make a monk using Ancestral Relic (Unarmed Strike) or Item Familiar (Unarmed Strike)?

Give it Throwing, Returning, Distance, Morphing, Sizing, Collision...

Turn that flurry of blows into a flurry of throws and be awesome.
Because I didn't want to go down that road of horrors. Also if PAO is supposed to be off limits (to which I agree), Morphing/Sizing should probably be too. You do of course point out some of the highlights of being a living weapon.
Admit it: you would have, if you'd thought of it first.

After all, it DOES showcase one of the monk's class features, and quite well.

It exploits the weird wording on the monk's unarmed strike, and uses it to its full measure.
That it does. Sorta matches the fluff too, ki lasers.

And if your body is not an ancestral weapon I don't know what is :P
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
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Tshern

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #677 on: June 22, 2011, 09:18:04 AM »
JaronK: Someone pointed out the low duration of the poison created with Minor creation. Assuming you have a feat to spare or one you can change, you could, I believe, remedy that with Practiced manifester. Two hours becomes ten hours, which isn't too bad.

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Mixster

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #678 on: June 22, 2011, 11:47:34 AM »
Also, please note:
Quote
Combat reflexes is meaningless to you due to your dex mod. Still just one AoO.
Invisible fist wont ever grant you etherealness, you just threw away the best part of that ACF.
Invisible Fist is good (sure if you have 12+ Wis it's good, but with 8 wisdom it doesn't do anything worthwhile).
I think the etheralness has a 1 round minimum, and Combat Reflexes still lets him take AoOs while flat footed.

True on the combat reflexes. On the invisible fist. Nope, it doesn't have a minimum 1 clause, so RAW you need 12+ wis to use it. Which Giacomos monk build didn't have.

JaronK: Someone pointed out the low duration of the poison created with Minor creation. Assuming you have a feat to spare or one you can change, you could, I believe, remedy that with Practiced manifester. Two hours becomes ten hours, which isn't too bad.

True that. A decent expert build could probably be made with Necropolitan, Hidden Talent minor creation, practiced manifester and item familiar.

I'm going to re-post this as I feel it is an adequate (or at least worth-while attempt) at a monk build that utilizes monk class abilities in conjunction with some other non-monkish features/tactics.


The Shade: Male Ghostwise Halfling Monk 7; CR 7; Medium Humanoid (Halfling); HD 5d6+2/2d8+2; hp 45; Init +3; Spd 40 ft.; AC 17, touch 17, flat-footed 11; Base Atk +5; Grp +1; Atk +9 melee (1d6+0/x2; unarmed strike) or +9 melee (1d3+0/x2; 10ft.; sai) or +10 ranged (1/x2; 10ft.; shurkin); SA Skirmish (+1d6 & +1 AC); SQ Speak Without Sound (20ft. telepathy towards one person), Darkvision (60ft.), Invisible Fist (1/4 rounds invisibility), Still Mind, Shadow Blend and Blur of Motion; AL LG; SV Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +7; Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10.
Skills, Skill Tricks and Feats: Balance +5 (0 ranks +3 dex +2 synergy), Bluff +1 (1 rank +0 cha), Climb +4 (2 ranks +0 str +2 racial), Craft (Poison) +8 (7 ranks +1 int), Disguise +1 (1 rank +0 cha), Hide +13 (10 ranks +3 dex +4 size bonus), Intimidate +11 (9 ranks +0 cha +2 apprentice bonus), Jump +13 (5 ranks +0 str +2 synergy +2 racial +4 speed), Knowledge (Local) +12 (10 ranks +1 int +1 specialized), Move Silently +14 (9 ranks +3 dex +2 racial), Profession (Merchant) +4 (2 ranks +2 wis), Read/Write/Speak (Common, Halfling and Sylvan) and Tumble +15 (10 ranks +3 dex +2 synergy); Collector of Stories; Apprentice (Soldier), Combat Reflexes, Favored in House, Improved Unarmed Strike, Knowledge Devotion, Master of Poisons and Mindsight.
Traits & Flaws: Specialized (Knowledge: Local); Inattentive & Unreactive
VariantsIn a non-sunlit room within the city against humanoids
AC 22 (10 +1 size +3 dexterity +1 monk bonus +2 wisdom +4 total defense) [Total Concealment is also in effect so flip a coin...]   
Attack +12 (+5 BaB +1 size bonus +3 weapon finesse +3 knowledge devotion [he'll easily be hitting 26 by this level])
Damage +5 & purple worm poison (1d3[2 average] +0 strength +3 knowledge devotion with purple worm poison)         

So we end up with a guy who, honestly, can't hit for a whole lot of damage but if he lands his blow begins to inflict some nasty poison. In addition his defense is hurting too difficult (this is after all without any magic items factored in) so he can continue to dance with his foes until he lands something.

ADAPTATION
If the flavor and mechanics surrounding using a Ghostwise Halfling don't work for you the build is easily adapted to using the Jungle Halfling from Unearthed Arcana, which means The Shade loses Mindsight but picks up two open feat spaces & a legitimate ranged combat option in the form of a shortbow. 
The build is decent, but it still loses horribly to just about anything that is CR6+. And this is essential to the argument against the monk.
The monk just doesn't have enough power to stand up to the creatures he meets. The expert probably doesn't have either. But he isn't trying to do so.
This means that the only thing either of them have going for them is the non-combat ones. To which I can only say that a monk has invisible fist, and an expert has skills. I'd argue that skills are sligthly better, but could see some arguments the other way.
The problem is, if for some reason, invisible fist is out of the question. The monk has crap. (what is he gonna do about 3 trolls at level 7? Run away?) The expert does still have plenty of tricks, since skills are versatile.

So basically, everything comes down to the fact that monks suck, and while experts suck more at some areas, they are better in the areas that matter. Since monks are so bad in combat, it doesn't matter if you are worse than him.

So to put it in terms of odds, the monk might have 3% chance of succeeding in a combat, and the expert might have 1% chance of succeeding. So while the monk might be three times as good as the expert here, he is still worthless. The expert might have 80% chance of succeeding at a skill related task, while the monk might have 40%, so while the expert is just double as good as the monk at this. It doesn't matter, since the expert can actually do something.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Nachofan99

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #679 on: June 22, 2011, 12:04:51 PM »
I like the summation Mixster RE: 3% monk at combat 1% expert at combat - sure he's 3x as good but he still sucks - and likewise with expert and skills vs monk and skills.

However, I do really like the suggestion by Lycanthromancer to use the monk's body as the ancestral relic+more and I don't think anyone should come down hard on a monk optimizing like that for the sole reason that it really, really, REALLY, is leveraging a unique and essentially "monk only" advantage that is also iconic to the class.  Wonder what a good build (ab)using that looks like?