Author Topic: Expert vs Monk Challenge!  (Read 151714 times)

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ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #560 on: June 17, 2011, 11:36:28 AM »
You can't increase your WBL by crafting. Just leting you guys know.
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[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #561 on: June 17, 2011, 11:43:26 AM »
You can't increase your WBL by crafting. Just leting you guys know.
Yes! take one GP, and craft 3. Any DM would let you do this!

Apart from that, you need skills, spells, feats and exp to craft magic gear.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #562 on: June 17, 2011, 12:42:16 PM »
Let me ask you this: Where does the gear come from? (when you start on higher levels, like 10 for example)
Note that higher level adventurers (so PCs also) are higher level because they did have adventures before and by my understanding of the game, their gear comes mostly from loot and rewards and not from magic marts. Of course that's just my experience and not an universl fact about D&D, so YMMV.
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #563 on: June 17, 2011, 12:48:26 PM »
Let me ask you this: Where does the gear come from? (when you start on higher levels, like 10 for example)
Note that higher level adventurers (so PCs also) are higher level because they did have adventures before and by my understanding of the game, their gear comes mostly from loot and rewards and not from magic marts. Of course that's just my experience and not an universl fact about D&D, so YMMV.

I don't know where it comes from. But I'm pretty sure that if your DM keeps giving you inappropriate loot. Everybody who is gear dependent is pretty sccrewed, so such a DM would just be an ass, since most Tier 1s are less screwed by losing their gear than Tier 5s.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #564 on: June 17, 2011, 02:27:26 PM »
I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that your equipment should be picked by your DM. I'm saying that, when you start on higher level, you can't use crafting to get stuff cheaper.

Quote from: Lycar on GitP
Ugh no! Crafting does NOT allow people to double their WBL!

 Every item the PCs possess counts against their assumed WBL with the full value obviously. Otherwise, the GP values of items would be completely useless for measuring the approximate power of the PCS bling.

 If method of acquisition suddenly somehow matters, how could you justify loot being part of WBL? They didn't pay a dime for that stuff apart from any consumables they may have used up during the fight where they got it.

 Having Crafting feats means that you are no longer dependent on random loot rolls/Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.

 You can, for example, trade in that Battleaxe +1 (for half price) and craft a Longsword +1 instead (costing half price up front in material) or customize your gear load out.

But you can NOT double your WBL!
And I wholy agree with this.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 03:07:04 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #565 on: June 17, 2011, 03:38:29 PM »
Why do we say the Monk is a frontline melee guy?  What do his class features say?  Everything the Monk has is for that role.

Why do we say the Expert is a skill monkey?  What does his class feature say?  Everything the Expert has is for that role.

That is why we say these things about the Monk and Expert: because that is what they are set up for.
Every post you have made so far says the Monk isn't cut out to be front line melee guy, so that's a lie. And if your going to pull out the PHB and try to fine some flavor text to prove me wrong, flip over to the Sorcerer entry and read about how the Wizard+lying = face of the party.

Example of a different comparison.
A Monk can be a better scout than any Rogue base can be. At level 2 while the Rogue has to stop and scout a dark spot and maybe even watch guard patterns before moving pas a guarded perimeter the Monk goes invisible and just walks though the area. At level 4 he can gain Wall Walker. It's not outright flight, but in enclosed areas he fights in three dimensions a level before the Wizard does. At level 9 he mastered moving in three and learns to fight in four dimensions, again a level before the Wizard can (plane shift). Back at 7th level the Monk maintains his Full-Concealment even from effects like Lifesense and Spot checks, unless the creature has Blindsight, always 'fail'. Rogue doesn't have those, he buys flight and probably never had an interplanar thought in his life, but he does have Trapfinding. Oh yeah, if the Expert can blow a feat on that, surely the guy with three feats more than the Expert can too. So there is that, and immunity to poison, and better saves, and more HP, too. Heck, the Monk can pick up Tracking too and those DCs are trivial. In every regard, the Mink's Class Features (including ACF) makes him a better scout than a Rogue or even the Scout class.

Also on the terms of combat viability, the Rogue has SA which has to be front loaded with items and tactics to work, the Monk simply picks up charging and though Wall Walker does it in style. He can reliably trigger Battle Jump off a Move Action and follow up with a Standard Attack at level 4 for the equivalence of three attacks (battle jump is done at x2). This is done two levels before the game thinks having two attacks is great and yes in this tiny window he is a more reliable source of damage than the Barbarian. Both the Rogue and Monk sport the same hit chance, but should it be enough to hit for the task the Monk can FoF out for more attacks (and later FoFs anyway). Both cling to their combat nooks, SA and charging, like it's the only way to remain combat viable. As far as being one trick ponies and the weaknesses tied to it. The Monk has to deal with a distance clause (Battle Jump greatly fixes) and the Rogue has to front load SA with tactics & items and then it still won't always work. Charging in the overall has always been better than SA, it's easier to obtain & use and doesn't need the TWF to keep up.

The Rogue isn't deprecated of course. His greater skill base leads to adding on social interaction. Disguise, Bluff, Gather Information, the Monk really has nothing for this area outside of Diplomacy. For most people that turn to Rogues, they turn to them for the social interaction because the rest of the party ditched it in favor for being combat brutes and gods. So while the Monk can be better suited for scouting, the party really needs someone to apologize for the holes in the wall and keep the spell caster from dominating everyone and they go Rogue. It's back to Min/Maxing again, combat and spells covered. You need someone with skills, and to be a target of various buffs to tack on proficiency in any role you all lack.
 
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #566 on: June 17, 2011, 03:55:30 PM »
The Monk ISN'T cut out to be fa front-line guy...but that's what all of his class features are geared toward anyway!

He has Hide and Move Silently as class skills, which is good!  He should use them!  However, none of his other class features synergize with them at all.  A Rogue is another example of a class where the class features are geared toward a particular goal: shanking people that didn't expect to be touched behind their traps without being alerted.  Sneak Attack synergizes very well with Hide/Move Silently and Trapfinding gives them something more to do with Search/Disable Device.

There are basically two skills that Monk abilities synergize with: Craft (Poison) and Jump.  Note how only one of them is even close to being useful.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 04:00:55 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #567 on: June 17, 2011, 04:34:08 PM »
Quote
At level 4 he can gain Wall Walker. It's not outright flight, but in enclosed areas he fights in three dimensions a level before the Wizard does.
Spider Climb. Alter Self. Levitate.

Which, if you think about it, are available at Wizard level 3, which, if you think about it, means that it is the wizard who gets to operate in three dimensions a level before the Monk does.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 04:40:03 PM by Solo »

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #568 on: June 17, 2011, 04:45:37 PM »
Quote
At level 4 he can gain Wall Walker. It's not outright flight, but in enclosed areas he fights in three dimensions a level before the Wizard does.
Spider Climb. Alter Self. Levitate.

Which, if you think about it, are available at Wizard level 3, which, if you think about it, means that it is the wizard who gets to operate in three dimensions a level before the Monk does.
Damn you Solo and your accursed logic!  :shakefist
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #569 on: June 17, 2011, 04:48:33 PM »
Well, that's only true if you look at it from a numerical point of view.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #570 on: June 17, 2011, 05:05:12 PM »
I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that your equipment should be picked by your DM. I'm saying that, when you start on higher level, you can't use crafting to get stuff cheaper.

Quote from: Lycar on GitP
Ugh no! Crafting does NOT allow people to double their WBL!

 Every item the PCs possess counts against their assumed WBL with the full value obviously. Otherwise, the GP values of items would be completely useless for measuring the approximate power of the PCS bling.

 If method of acquisition suddenly somehow matters, how could you justify loot being part of WBL? They didn't pay a dime for that stuff apart from any consumables they may have used up during the fight where they got it.

 Having Crafting feats means that you are no longer dependent on random loot rolls/Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.

 You can, for example, trade in that Battleaxe +1 (for half price) and craft a Longsword +1 instead (costing half price up front in material) or customize your gear load out.

But you can NOT double your WBL!
And I wholy agree with this.
WBL is only measured in just gold pieces for non-spellcasting classes. For spellcasters, it's measured in A.) gold pieces, 2.) spells they can cast (which can give them infinite resources for free a la Explosive Runes) and III.) XP.

And they can use 2 and III to augment A, such that their WBL is much, much higher than the noncasting classes.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
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[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #571 on: June 17, 2011, 05:30:20 PM »
"Sure, I wasn't given any more GP than Bob over there.  But I have the ability to make my GP count for more.  His 50 gp buys him a dull grey ioun stone.  My 50 gp buys me the raw materials for two dull grey ioun stones, which I then make into dull grey ioun stones by spending my exp."

Unless you're arguing that feats like merchantile background or any of the price discounts are inherently worthless.  If WBL is based on full market price, rather than on the materials you have to work with, spending 25% less to craft wands is absolutely pointless.
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ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #572 on: June 17, 2011, 05:44:52 PM »
No-one is disallowing you to use crafting during play. Because that's what it's created for.
Casters sacrifice XP, okay. That's a good point. My only qualm about it is that before the game starts, the PC could do ANYTHING, but it shouldn't have any impact on the game. You start with the same level AND the same WBL.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 05:54:00 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #573 on: June 17, 2011, 05:51:29 PM »
No-one is disallowing you to use crafting during play. Because that's what it's created for.
Casters sacrifice XP, okay. That's a good point. My only qualm about it is that before the game starts, the PC could do ANYTHING, but it shouldn't have any impact on the game. You start with the same level AND the same WBL.
Or you do what the DMG suggests and start with an XP total...
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #574 on: June 17, 2011, 05:53:48 PM »
Let me ask you this: Where does the gear come from? (when you start on higher levels, like 10 for example)
Note that higher level adventurers (so PCs also) are higher level because they did have adventures before and by my understanding of the game, their gear comes mostly from loot and rewards and not from magic marts. Of course that's just my experience and not an universl fact about D&D, so YMMV.

That is one of the sneaky points.
Magic Marts are that awesome.

The problem is for non-casters.
They "only" get to use a Magic Mart.
And this assumes that there are Magic Marts in the first place.

Casters get to be their own Magic Mart.
This gets around the whether or not Magic Marts exist, problem.
And they come out ahead in the deal too.

Insisting on opening the Magic Mart problem, causes more problems.
Expert can Spellcraft + Psicraft + UMD + UPD and use Scrolls
and Powerstones more aggressively (gp wise) than a Wand or Dorje user.
Hello options.


ACFs ?
Experts don't have no stinkin' ACFs.
 :(

ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #575 on: June 17, 2011, 05:56:19 PM »
No-one is disallowing you to use crafting during play. Because that's what it's created for.
Casters sacrifice XP, okay. That's a good point. My only qualm about it is that before the game starts, the PC could do ANYTHING, but it shouldn't have any impact on the game. You start with the same level AND the same WBL.
Or you do what the DMG suggests and start with an XP total...
Oh... right. So, would you allow a player to start a game that's supposed to be 10th level, on 11-12th level, just because he took Item Familiar on 1st level and invested his XP in it, getting more XP in return? I think not.

Quote
The problem is for non-casters.
They "only" get to use a Magic Mart.
And this assumes that there are Magic Marts in the first place.
That's what random treasures or rewards for completing quests are for. Magic Marts just simplify things.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 05:59:33 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #576 on: June 17, 2011, 05:58:22 PM »
No-one is disallowing you to use crafting during play. Because that's what it's created for.
Casters sacrifice XP, okay. That's a good point. My only qualm about it is that before the game starts, the PC could do ANYTHING, but it shouldn't have any impact on the game. You start with the same level AND the same WBL.
Or you do what the DMG suggests and start with an XP total...
Oh... right. So, would you allow a player to start a game that's supposed to be 10th level, on 11-12th level, just because he took Item Familiar on 1st level and invested his XP in it, getting more XP in return? I think not.
Of course not.  If you start with X xp, that's what you have..including Item Familiar bonus  No matter how you use it, you still have X xp (or less if you spent it on magic or Necropolitan or such).

If I start a game where everyone has 10k xp (level 5 exactly), they have 10k xp to use however they like.  They don't have 11k (starting at 7th level), they have 10k, even if they have Item Familiar.

And before you ask, this is definitely not unfair to the player with Item Familiar.  They still have the feat, which provides many, many benefits and this treatment results in having a set of "protected xp".
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 06:04:56 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

oslecamo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #577 on: June 17, 2011, 06:00:54 PM »
"Sure, I wasn't given any more GP than Bob over there.  But I have the ability to make my GP count for more.  His 50 gp buys him a dull grey ioun stone.  My 50 gp buys me the raw materials for two dull grey ioun stones, which I then make into dull grey ioun stones by spending my exp."

Unless you're arguing that feats like merchantile background or any of the price discounts are inherently worthless.  If WBL is based on full market price, rather than on the materials you have to work with, spending 25% less to craft wands is absolutely pointless.

On the other hand, time is still a limited resource. Considering you can only craft up to 1000 gp of magic gear per day (and only one item per day if it costs less than 1000 GP). If you take all the crafting feats sure you can get some extra cash, but it will take days if not weeks to get all your stuff done, so you stop being an adventurer and become a manufacturer. An adventurer can just go out there and kill/loot stuff. More risky, but considerably more cost efficient, and they gain exp instead of losing it.

ImperatorK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #578 on: June 17, 2011, 06:09:51 PM »
No-one is disallowing you to use crafting during play. Because that's what it's created for.
Casters sacrifice XP, okay. That's a good point. My only qualm about it is that before the game starts, the PC could do ANYTHING, but it shouldn't have any impact on the game. You start with the same level AND the same WBL.
Or you do what the DMG suggests and start with an XP total...
Oh... right. So, would you allow a player to start a game that's supposed to be 10th level, on 11-12th level, just because he took Item Familiar on 1st level and invested his XP in it, getting more XP in return? I think not.
Of course not.  If you start with X xp, that's what you have..including Item Familiar bonus  No matter how you use it, you still have X xp (or less if you spent it on magic or Necropolitan or such).
And the same can be said about WBL. You start with X gp (but not some kind of pocket money, but a virtual fortune which you spent during character creation) and no mather how or where from you get your items (background-wise) you still can pend only X gp.
Example: You create a PC called Artur and you "buy" him a magical sword called Excalibur. The background says that he got the sword for free, from Merlin (or Lady of the Lake, does not matter). Yet it costs you 20kgp during character creation.
(I hope I'm not confuzing you with my wierd analogies and examples)

Quote
And before you ask, this is definitely not unfair to the player with Item Familiar.  They still have the feat, which provides many, many benefits and this treatment results in having a set of "protected xp".
Anfd it is not unfair to a player that invested his feats in item creation feats. He still can use them during the game.

Just to be clear: I'm not saying that you guys are doing it wrong. No mather what is RAW or RAI, you can play as you want. I'm just stating that, IMO, that is how it should be.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 06:12:51 PM by ImperatorK »
"I'm done thinking for today! It's caused me enough trouble!"
"Take less damage to avoid being killed."
"In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed."


[spoiler]
Quote from: Lateral
Or you could just be a cleric of an ideal. Like, physics and say that the domain choices reflect potential and kinetic energy.

 Plus, where other clerics say "For Pelor," "For Nerull," or "For Crom?" You get to say, "FOR SCIENCE!" *fanfare*

About me:
Quote from: dark_samuari
I know your game, you just want a magical Amazon.com to knock off those good ol' honest magic shops run by polite, old wizards!
Use Iron Heart Surge on the sun. That'll teach him to use fluff as RAW.

Damn you! You totally ruined my build that was all about getting epic far shot early and throwing my enemies into the sun!
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #579 on: June 17, 2011, 06:11:51 PM »
Casters get to be their own Magic Mart.
This gets around the whether or not Magic Marts exist, problem.
And they come out ahead in the deal too.
Just to make sure this excellent point isn't missed...

and ignoring the whole question of whether crafting feats can let you start with a higher WBL...

The game functions better if "Magic Marts" exist. Otherwise, casters are the only ones who can have exactly what magic items they want (and they get them more cheaply... because lost XP is either eventually caught up... or never matters). And they're already a lot less magic item dependent than the non-casters, anyway. So not allowing "magic marts" just puts non-casters that much farther behind than they already are.

So bringing up "magic marts" in any argument as an excuse for limiting access to magic items as a means to balancing the game is idiotic. [spoiler](unless you want to hand out artifacts to the non-casters as treasure, and never put anything in for the casters except what they can craft themselves (Which I've seen done, and heard argued as a balancing mechanic)).[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]