Author Topic: Expert vs Monk Challenge!  (Read 151476 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #480 on: June 14, 2011, 11:24:37 PM »
I'm thinking of challenging myself with the same restrictions as the Expert I made... 22 point buy, decently optimized race, only generally available magic items, trying to optimize the class abilities of the class itself.  I'm thinking it could be fun to make a Dragonborn Water Orc Monk designed to trip and smash (though that doesn't work with Wisdom so well).

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ninjarabbit

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #481 on: June 14, 2011, 11:31:04 PM »
Here's a quick ECL 10 monk build

catfolk monk9

2 point build

str 14
dex 16 (12 base + 4 racial)
con 14
int 8
wis 16 (14 base +2 level up)
cha 10 (8 base + 2 racial)

Feats:
1-catfolk pounce, stunning fist
2-combat reflexes
3-improved initative
6-improved natural attack (unarmed strike), improved trip
9-snap kick

Maxed skills: hide, move silently, diplomacy

Nothing that great but at least it can pounce

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #482 on: June 15, 2011, 12:26:05 AM »
Non-core, and therefore invalid.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

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Sobolev

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #483 on: June 15, 2011, 12:40:00 AM »
I'm not even going to attempt it in Core, because that's just nonsense.  Here's the beginnings of my non-Core attempt.


Kalashatar Monk X // Fist of the Forest 3
ACFs: Kalashatar Monk 1 & 2 (Races of Eberron), Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil),  Wallwalker (Dungeonscape), Prayerful Meditation (Complete Champion), Holy Strike (Complete Champion),

[1st]
[Monk 1] Imp. Unarmed Strike
[Monk 1]
[Kalashatar Monk 2] Obtain Psicrystal

Feat Somewhere: Battle Jump

Make your Psicrystal take Mindsight so it can help you scout.

That's really all I've got so far, but I feel like it's at least something.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #484 on: June 15, 2011, 12:42:32 AM »
Fine

Lizardfolk3/monk7

22 point buy

str 18 (14 base +2 racial +2 level up)
dex 12
con 16 (14 base +2 racial)
int 6 (8 -2 racial)
wis 14
cha 8

Skills: 12 ranks swim, 5 ranks balance, 7 ranks tumble

Feats
1-stunning fist, improved grapple
2-deflect arrows
3-ability focus (stunning fist)
6-multiattack, improved trip
9-improved natural attack (unarmed strike)

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #485 on: June 15, 2011, 01:09:03 AM »
Hey the thread has turned down a useful path. Hope it keeps going, anyway, here is some stuff, I don't really have much saved for Monks.

Shiba ProtectorOA gives your Wisdom Bonus to Attack & Damage as a single level dip which in turn makes you less dependent on Str.
OR dump Wisdom.
Wall Walker & Invisible Fist virtually replace the need to forgo armor, all that's left is Wis to AC and that up to +5 bonus. Oh look, the Simple Monk VariantUA trade out that extra AC bonus for DR X/- (as barbarian) so find some 0 ACP armor and wear it.

Fist of the ForestCC is great, Constitution Bonus to AC & Fast Movement at level 1 and awards two Unarmed Strike advancements in three levels.
OR
Desecrated Necropoliton Monk PAOed back into a form with Constitution (con changes give hp, even if the spell says no, change your con via enhancement bonus to override) allowing you to dump that to start with too.

Changlings can enter WarshaperCAd, +4 str/con & Reach. Really, at this point you could have dumped Cha, Wis, Con, and now free Str boosts.

Invisible FistEoE really is made of win. Complete Psionics (also SRD) Ethereal Reaver exists in both the Ethereal Plane and Material Plane, if ripped you could place it on a Gauntlet (they are considered unarmed attacks) and as part of your Move Action draw it as needed and pocket it to flywalk though walls. Dark Moon Disciple's Su full concealment isn't invisibility, nothing less than Sunlight, True Seeing, and Blindsight-like effects can penetrate it. Max Move Silently and skip Hide.

Lastly, Holy StrikeCC, Rings of Force ArmorMiC, Spiked somethingFF, and Flaming FistsA&E all directly give bonus dice to unarmed Damage.

P.S. Subject to abuse. OA's Monk Weapons allow anything that attacks your attack to be stacked with them. Intent is probably FoF and thigns like Haste or such, as worded you might be able to argue for TWFing with one weapon, Snap Kick using a weapon, etc.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

snakeman830

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #486 on: June 15, 2011, 01:21:17 AM »
I believe these "Class vs. Class" discussions and Tier discussions are done on a "no multiclassing" basis, so no PrC's.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

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veekie

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #487 on: June 15, 2011, 03:30:06 AM »
I believe these "Class vs. Class" discussions and Tier discussions are done on a "no multiclassing" basis, so no PrC's.
Except we've already conclusively established the balance of power outside of multiclassing. Sans Wild Monk, its a foregone conclusion. This is taking that down a constructive angle by working out how to work WITH the monk's strengths, as Solo is doing.
Without multiclassing the best way to be an effective monk is not to use any of its features.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #488 on: June 15, 2011, 03:33:19 AM »
I have merely taken trolling to a new and sublime level by posting useful material instead of inane comments.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #489 on: June 15, 2011, 03:50:42 AM »
P.S. Subject to abuse. OA's Monk Weapons allow anything that attacks your attack to be stacked with them. Intent is probably FoF and thigns like Haste or such, as worded you might be able to argue for TWFing with one weapon, Snap Kick using a weapon, etc.

More information on that comment.

Furry of Blows, TWF & Snap Kick, all done with one weapon. Save 200,000gp by not having to buy a second weapon. Again, not really intent, but it's my fun find this week.

@Solo, I support your new direction.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #490 on: June 15, 2011, 03:56:22 AM »
I have merely taken trolling to a new and sublime level by posting useful material instead of inane comments.

Your trolling has rolled over the upper limit, reseting itself to...usefulness.  :O
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #491 on: June 15, 2011, 04:03:31 AM »
Yes, for the true master trolls without trolling at all!

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

X-Codes

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #492 on: June 15, 2011, 04:47:40 AM »
I would love to see an actual throw down at some point instead of just theory-crafting.  How2Make it happen?
Someone needs to roll up a Monk.  We've already got plenty of people who have been willing to roll up an Expert, but nobody's taking up the Monk.

What level/point-buy allotment/sources?

I enjoy crafting monks, even if it is more than likely a process of futility...
How about 28 PB, all material?  Two builds at ECL 7 and 15?  I don't see why everyone is building at ECL 10, given that there's really nothing spectacular going on at that level.  I also don't see why Solo went Core, since Monks are obviously laughably pathetic in the Core setting.

Also, no multiclassing or PrCs, though that should be given.

dark_samuari

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #493 on: June 15, 2011, 05:08:25 AM »
I would love to see an actual throw down at some point instead of just theory-crafting.  How2Make it happen?
Someone needs to roll up a Monk.  We've already got plenty of people who have been willing to roll up an Expert, but nobody's taking up the Monk.

What level/point-buy allotment/sources?

I enjoy crafting monks, even if it is more than likely a process of futility...
How about 28 PB, all material?  Two builds at ECL 7 and 15?  I don't see why everyone is building at ECL 10, given that there's really nothing spectacular going on at that level.  I also don't see why Solo went Core, since Monks are obviously laughably pathetic in the Core setting.

Also, no multiclassing or PrCs, though that should be given.

I'll do one at level seven (I cap myself at 11 & below for thematic issues).

Any specific purpose or goal? If not I'll simply build a monk who can assist an adventuring party as well as serve as a real, actual character.

Mixster

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #494 on: June 15, 2011, 05:13:18 AM »
Quote
Wall Walker & Invisible Fist virtually replace the need to forgo armor, all that's left is Wis to AC and that up to +5 bonus. Oh look, the Simple Monk VariantUA trade out that extra AC bonus for DR X/- (as barbarian) so find some 0 ACP armor and wear it.

Yeah those ACFs are actually pretty good. Monks can do a lot with them. (although simple monk isn't getting that much, what it gives up is probably less).

I think with PrCs allowed, the monk has much more support. So I'd assume the monk would win such a challenge, that would be nice to run.

@Butterfly sword, well if used two-handed, that's actually decent. According to Oriental Adventures page 18, you can also do it with a Nun-Chaku, which works as a heavy pick.
Also note those Mouth-Darts in OA that can give you 3 attacks with them per attack you make, soak them in black lotus extract and watch things without DR cry.

Quote
Complete Psionics (also SRD) Ethereal Reaver exists in both the Ethereal Plane and Material Plane, if ripped you could place it on a Gauntlet (they are considered unarmed attacks) and as part of your Move Action draw it as needed and pocket it to flywalk though walls
Isn't Ethereal Reaver in the MiC? Where it is basically a +3 enhancement that is ghost touch + see invisibility?

Quote
@Solo, I support your new direction.
Actually I do too, I'm sad to say this, but over those last 12 pages my regard of the monk did change a good bit. I especially like that invisible fist ACF.

Quote
How about 28 PB, all material?  Two builds at ECL 7 and 15?  I don't see why everyone is building at ECL 10, given that there's really nothing spectacular going on at that level.  I also don't see why Solo went Core, since Monks are obviously laughably pathetic in the Core setting.

Also, no multiclassing or PrCs, though that should be given.

Okay, sounds fine to me. I'd probably build a Monk, since I do believe with all material they are better.

EDIT: @ Dark_Samuari. I think we should build the characters and then have somebody design challenges for them. Or if we are 8 or so people doing this, everybody could design a challenge they are fairly confident their own character could take on. Then have every other character test that. That would require us to have even amount of monk and expert builders, but apart from that it would be a fair test IMO.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 05:15:44 AM by Mixster »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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veekie

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #495 on: June 15, 2011, 09:23:59 AM »
Well, a set of 'standard' character tests hmm, applied to characters in general.
Like so?:
City - Political scenario, diplomacy and intrigue.
City - Alley/Rooftop ambush, PC classed thugs
City - Sewer croc fight of some variety in limited lighting.

Dungeon - Closet Troll. Big monster, small room/corridor
Dungeon - Traps and a Jerk. Trapped area with an antagonist making use of them once discovered.
Dungeon - Dragon. "Boss" type enemy in a small space. Mindflayers and lichs apply as well.
Dungeon - Puzzle. A trick scenario which requires application of knowledge to a scenario.

Plains - Suddenly Brigands, PC classed humanoids attack the party across open area.
Plains - Wormsign, Combat with surprise mobility opponent, via flight, burrow, teleport, etc
Plains - Dark Ritual, crash an evil cultist special event in an open air site or a temple. Massed Adepts, at least a cleric and a demon. On the bright side you got the jump!

Gotta go, but I figure those are reasonably realistic situations a party could be in. Just need like a dozen more to round out likely environments and scenarios.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bauglir

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #496 on: June 15, 2011, 11:16:37 AM »
Here's a Monk build I posted a while back. I could've sworn we had some discussion about it, but then people started saying nobody was posting Monk builds, so I figured I'd better set the record straight.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 11:18:12 AM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

JaronK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #497 on: June 15, 2011, 01:51:19 PM »
I'd also add in that we shouldn't use anything with racial HD or LA... try to get as many Monk levels in there as possible.  And resulting builds should make good use of Monk class features... it proves nothing if you make a build that just happens to be a Monk, but would be perfectly good as something else.  For example, I made an awesome Commoner charger... but that didn't prove Commoners were strong, only that Shock Trooper/Valorous Lance/Headlong Rush/Dragonborn Water Orc was strong.  The only thing I used from Commoner was the ability to deal with animals and Infested with Chickens.

JaronK

Bauglir

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #498 on: June 15, 2011, 04:49:01 PM »
Then an Expert build should make use of an Expert's class features. Oh, wait.

If this were a Fighter thread, you would be totally right. But Monks get 4+Int skill points per level, and 4 of the skills in that build are Monk class skills (Craft (Poisonmaking), Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently). The Monk can't be barred from skills on account of them "being the Expert's schtick". It actually has some above-average ability to invest in them.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

veekie

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #499 on: June 15, 2011, 04:56:44 PM »
Then an Expert build should make use of an Expert's class features. Oh, wait.

If this were a Fighter thread, you would be totally right. But Monks get 4+Int skill points per level, and 4 of the skills in that build are Monk class skills (Craft (Poisonmaking), Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently). The Monk can't be barred from skills on account of them "being the Expert's schtick". It actually has some above-average ability to invest in them.
Hes not barred, but you could do the exact same process with a commoner and you wouldn't see that much of a performance gap.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."