Author Topic: Expert vs Monk Challenge!  (Read 151481 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #460 on: June 13, 2011, 09:54:29 PM »
Edit: Can this thread be stickied?!

Only if you send it to GiantITP first.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #461 on: June 13, 2011, 10:28:39 PM »
No, as the monk whispergnome build illustrated, it does similar damage with unarmed strikes (all the time) to the  iajutsu focus (not available all the times, in particular when you consider that marbles need to be deployed first from a flying mount. Note also that I due to an editing Error the monk' damage appeared to be not that of a large monk. I corrected that).

It does 1d8-2 damage per hit, with a lower to hit bonus.  This is not at all similar to 1+4d6, which is what the Expert is hitting with.  2.5<15.  You might get two attacks due to flurry, but then you're at an even lower bonus to hit... and since you're not flat footing opponents as much, you don't get the lower to hit requirements.  If you use the alternate strike ability, you need to use full round actions for that, which removes the mobility advantage of the mount, once again proving that Monks are not a mobile attack class (as they're supposed to be).

Note also the lack of effective ranged abilities on your Monk.  The Expert fights quite effectively at 360' out, with some penalties beyond that point... useful for a flying mounted warrior.  The Monk is limited to Shuriken range at best. So no, your offensive abilities are not comparable.

Quote
Right now it is sufficient to say that I see no reason why his expert whispergnome should be perceived as anything but clearly inferior to my monk whispergnome.

The Expert can fight.  The Monk is worthless at fighting.  The Monk's advantages are evasion and increased ref/will saves, the Expert's advantage is he does enough damage to matter.  The Expert also has more skills.  It's not even close.

Quote
Also I think I have shown clearly that all of the monk's class abilities or ACFs at level 6 are still there, still contributing to the "monkness" of the class: decisive strike and high unarmed damage, invisibility, speed enhancement, monk combat style feats without requirements, ki strike, energy resistance, high saves. And these are supposed to be negligble or crappy?

You don't get invisibility from being a Monk (I think...), Decisive strike removes your mobility, your unarmed damage as a small level 6 Monk with INA is 1d8-2, and your speed bonus is worthless compared to the speed of the mount (where it doesn't help), plus you burned any advantage you'd have from combat style feats by spending many feats to gain skills and one feat to make up for not getting feycraft.  You got +1 to AC for an AC bonus instead of just wearing light armor that would give at least +4.  All you got was the increase (+4 or so) to two saves.  You have proved that Monks are weak by needing to optimize everything but being a Monk.

Quote
Guys, what more evidence do you need?

How about a Monk that's actually competent using Monk abilities?  The Expert was a skillmonkey scout who can fight, and he still fights better than your Monk.

Quote
JaronK has also asked for another build of mine with INT 18 and 22-pt-buy.
Well, no big deal.
Using a similar trick to JaronK's "CON dumping with changing into an undead":

7th level monk (note that this monk did not lose a level like the necropolitan whispergnome expert, although in this case it hardly matters), starts as human (possibly the monastery's librarian or scribe)

Experience is a river.  You regain the lost level quickly.

Quote
STR 8, DEX 8, CON 8, INT 18, WIS 14, CHR 8.
Feats: otherwordly (human), skill prodigy, knowledge devotion, INA
Monk feats: stunning fist, combat reflexes, improved Trip.
Key event: gets polymorph any object (up to Level 20 for 1,600 gp) into an astral deva.
Skills: a lot, enough to emulate JaronK's
Items: maybe some stun, trip, and STR boosters.

Again (though this time with a completely different build), this monk is better than JaronK's expert.
Sure, an expert can also use PoA...but again, all the monk's class abilities are there, synergising well with the astral deva form.

...you went with buying a permanent Polymorph Any Object?  SERIOUSLY?  Did you see me spending my wealth on a Candle of Invocation?  No?  How about having a Wizard Haunt Shift my Expert into a Hardened Adamantium Skeleton so as to have Hardness 30?  Nope, didn't do that either.  Then don't be insane.  Try again without raging TO abuse.  Your entire power comes from having a Wizard buff you, not from being a Monk.  Look again at the Expert I made.  Note how what I used were the Expert's abilities (namely, having skills).  Not having a nearby Wizard.  Not optimizing my other stuff.  I complimented the Expert's abilities with his feats and items... I didn't just outright overwhelm them.  ANY class would be strong at level 7 if Polymorphed into a strong form, so you've just class X fallacy'd again.  I swear, it should be just named the Giacomo fallacy.

JaronK
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 11:04:47 PM by JaronK »

Sinfire Titan

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
  • You've got one round to give a rat's ass.
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #462 on: June 13, 2011, 10:44:46 PM »
Invisible Fist ACF allows a Monk to become invisible for 1 round at the cost of both evasion and improved evasion.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #463 on: June 13, 2011, 10:47:23 PM »
...you went with buying a permanent Polymorph Any Object?  SERIOUSLY?  Did you see me spending my wealth on a Candle of Invocation?  No?  How about having a Wizard Haunt Shift my Expert into a Hardened Adamantium Skeleton so as to have Hardness 30?  Nope, didn't do that either.  Then don't be insane.  Try again without raging TO abuse.  Your entire power comes from having a Wizard buff you, not from being a Monk.  Look again at the Expert I made.  Note how what I used were the Expert's abilities (namely, having skills).  Not having a nearby Wizard.  Not optimizing my other stuff.  I complimented the Expert's abilities with his feats and items... I didn't just outright overwhelm them.  ANY class would be strong at level 7 if Polymorphed into a strong form, so you've just class X fallacy'd again.  I swear, it should be just named the Giacomo fallacy.

JaronK
He thinks that since it's okay for my psywar build to use Metamorphosis that it's likewise okay for him to use Polymorph, and doesn't realize why it was for me, but not for him.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #464 on: June 13, 2011, 11:06:16 PM »
Invisible Fist ACF allows a Monk to become invisible for 1 round at the cost of both evasion and improved evasion.

Ouch.  Useful at a few levels, but the moment things start having Blindsight and such, that's pretty darn painful.  Please tell me it's at least like 1 round per class level per day or something?

JaronK

Eldritch_Lord

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #465 on: June 13, 2011, 11:38:56 PM »

Ouch.  Useful at a few levels, but the moment things start having Blindsight and such, that's pretty darn painful.  Please tell me it's at least like 1 round per class level per day or something?

JaronK

It's usable at will, and at 9th level you can use blink instead for [Wis mod] rounds; both have a 3-round cooldown.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #466 on: June 13, 2011, 11:40:01 PM »

Ouch.  Useful at a few levels, but the moment things start having Blindsight and such, that's pretty darn painful.  Please tell me it's at least like 1 round per class level per day or something?

JaronK

It's usable at will, and at 9th level you can use blink instead for [Wis mod] rounds; both have a 3-round cooldown.
That's actually pretty nice.

It's not as nice as a lot of things, but still nice.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #467 on: June 14, 2011, 12:17:23 AM »

Ouch.  Useful at a few levels, but the moment things start having Blindsight and such, that's pretty darn painful.  Please tell me it's at least like 1 round per class level per day or something?

JaronK

It's usable at will, and at 9th level you can use blink instead for [Wis mod] rounds; both have a 3-round cooldown.
That's actually pretty nice.

It's not as nice as a lot of things, but still nice.
The important part is that its an immediate action, so it helps with action economy a little. Plus it gives the Wildshape monk a way to survive for another 3 levels.

Quote from: Jaronk
Experience is a river.  You regain the lost level quickly.

Could you go over the numbers? I have a small amount of doubt on whether you regain it this quickly.
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #468 on: June 14, 2011, 05:15:50 AM »
It's usable at will, and at 9th level you can use blink instead for [Wis mod] rounds; both have a 3-round cooldown.

Nice.  That's not too shabby at all then.

As for experience, I'm a bit tired atm but you start catching up quite quickly.

JaronK

Halinn

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #469 on: June 14, 2011, 10:29:21 AM »
As for experience, there's a thread on that on the WotC forums here. Short version: you will have caught up at level 13, as far as I can interpret the tables.

Nachofan99

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #470 on: June 14, 2011, 12:14:50 PM »
I would love to see an actual throw down at some point instead of just theory-crafting.  How2Make it happen?

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #471 on: June 14, 2011, 01:44:12 PM »
As for experience, there's a thread on that on the WotC forums here. Short version: you will have caught up at level 13, as far as I can interpret the tables.

That's to completely catch up.  But right away you're caught up some of the time.  By 6 if you started at 3, you should be caught up a noticable percentage.

JaronK

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #472 on: June 14, 2011, 02:12:11 PM »
As for experience, there's a thread on that on the WotC forums here. Short version: you will have caught up at level 13, as far as I can interpret the tables.

That's to completely catch up.  But right away you're caught up some of the time.  By 6 if you started at 3, you should be caught up a noticable percentage.

JaronK

To elaborate, if you're 2000 exp behind the party, and a level is 12000 exp long, you're clearly on the same level as them for a vast majority of the time.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 07:44:58 PM by Sobolev »
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Sir Giacomo

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #473 on: June 14, 2011, 07:31:02 PM »
Hmmm.

Quite a few new comments.
Unfortunately not enough time right now for a reply with the necessary details.
Will post more in a couple of days (maybe earlier).
In the meantime, possible re-reading my recent posts, some posters may consider changing their view that the expert is equal to or even better than the monk.

- Giacomo

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #474 on: June 14, 2011, 07:59:02 PM »
Please, do take your time.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #475 on: June 14, 2011, 10:52:06 PM »
I would love to see an actual throw down at some point instead of just theory-crafting.  How2Make it happen?
Someone needs to roll up a Monk.  We've already got plenty of people who have been willing to roll up an Expert, but nobody's taking up the Monk.

Sobolev

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 742
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #476 on: June 14, 2011, 10:54:17 PM »
I would love to see an actual throw down at some point instead of just theory-crafting.  How2Make it happen?
Someone needs to roll up a Monk.  We've already got plenty of people who have been willing to roll up an Expert, but nobody's taking up the Monk.

Which is telling I think.
Sha'ir Handbook
Binder Handbook


Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #477 on: June 14, 2011, 10:55:00 PM »
I would love to see an actual throw down at some point instead of just theory-crafting.  How2Make it happen?
Someone needs to roll up a Monk.  We've already got plenty of people who have been willing to roll up an Expert, but nobody's taking up the Monk.
I rolled up a monk a while ago.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #478 on: June 14, 2011, 11:15:11 PM »
A monk 1/druid 19 would kick an expert's rump all over town.

...What? It's a monk! It's even on the class level list!
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #479 on: June 14, 2011, 11:20:05 PM »
I would love to see an actual throw down at some point instead of just theory-crafting.  How2Make it happen?
Someone needs to roll up a Monk.  We've already got plenty of people who have been willing to roll up an Expert, but nobody's taking up the Monk.

What level/point-buy allotment/sources?

I enjoy crafting monks, even if it is more than likely a process of futility...