Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[Epimetheus]

I think this discussion is getting bogged down by details. From what I can tell, the argument that most follow is that an expert optimized using various sources will be better than an optimized monk. Main reasons would be UMD, Handle Animal, and Iaijutsu Focus.

One may feel that the Oriental Adventures, (Necropolitan?!) whisper gnome with gnomish quickrazor, Quick Draw, who has raised a warbeast (possibly magebred) Desmodu Hunting Bat to be rather unlikely. It's true..., but it's still far better than any of the monk concepts that have been brought up.

I feel that the main monk contender will probably end up using obscure sources. How about the Wild Monk from Dragon 324. (Class Features: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6897.0) Wild shape could possibly let the monk contend against the optimized expert. While it may get Wildshape (Large) at lvl 12, with the Skin of Kaletor item (12K) boosts wildshape lvl by 4 (also from Dragon 324), letting some very, very broken things happen at lvl 8. (Wildshaped for all 24 hours, as a 12 HD animal)

It might also be worthwhile to consider Dragon Wildshape (Draconomicon. Note that it requires 19 Wis and wis doesn't do much for the Wild Monk. One could buy a WildingClasp+Monk'sBelt though to make up for this.).

The Wild Monk, however, is likely a waste of space until lvl 6, when it obtains wild shape. The expert doesn't do so hot either due a low skill mods (especially UMD), but at least the skill checks succeed often enough.

[X-Codes]

The tier system doesn't take class variants into account, and the Wild Monk is pretty much the reason for that.  The Wild Monk is so different from the PHB Monk that it may as well be a different class altogether, just how the Shapeshift Druid is a Tier 3 class while the PHB Druid is Tier 1.

[Sinfire Titan]

The tier system doesn't take class variants into account, and the Wild Monk is pretty much the reason for that.  The Wild Monk is so different from the PHB Monk that it may as well be a different class altogether, just how the Shapeshift Druid is a Tier 3 class while the PHB Druid is Tier 1.

Tell that to the Dungeoncrasher, Wildshape Ranger, Spell to Power Erudite, Divine Mind (Mind's Eye version), and one or two others.


Dragon material should never be counted on the Tiers list though.

[JaronK]

The tier system doesn't take class variants into account, and the Wild Monk is pretty much the reason for that.  The Wild Monk is so different from the PHB Monk that it may as well be a different class altogether, just how the Shapeshift Druid is a Tier 3 class while the PHB Druid is Tier 1.

It does, actually.  Mostly I didn't put them in if they'd be in the same tier as the original (for example, Stalwart Sorcerer vs Sorcerer, or Cleric vs Cloistered Cleric).  If it's enough to change a tier, I put it in (like Zhentarium Fighters).  But it's possible I missed some, and there's a few I haven't tried (like the Shapeshift Druid).

JaronK

[veekie]

Though as an aside, I think the Shapeshift Druid only drops to T2 really, its still a fullcaster with a rage-equivalent combat mode.

[Solo]

 If anyone wants to DM a Test of Spite style challenge involving JaronK's expert and the only actual monk build in this thread (ie. mine) I'd be happy to participate.

[JaronK]

If anyone wants to DM a Test of Spite style challenge involving JaronK's expert and the only actual monk build in this thread (ie. mine) I'd be happy to participate.

You'd have to fill in the rest of his WBL, of course.  I'd be happy if he were able to handle even a few challenges!  Would it be wrong to just fly past a bunch of them, given the option?

JaronK

[X-Codes]

Though as an aside, I think the Shapeshift Druid only drops to T2 really, its still a fullcaster with a rage-equivalent combat mode.

Being a full caster doesn't merit T2 status.  Just ask the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer.  In fact, the Dread Necromancer is practically designed to smash campaigns via undead minions, even though the amount of power it can dish out in a short period of time is limited.

In any case, the Druid's spell list is basically more varied than those of the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer, and not substantially more powerful.  Sure, druids still get Shapechange, but DN's get Planar Binding, so just having one offender apparently isn't enough.  Sure, Druids get the Bite of X spells, but those buffs do not play nicely at all with the Shapeshifting ability.  In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find more than one or two spells that would make GOD go in those mid-upper levels, even with Spell Compendium.  They're all very situational.

Also, Druids are losing a very, VERY strong class feature in that animal companion when using the Shapeshift variant.  A PHB Druid is basically bringing two characters to the table, especially at low levels, and has a lot of solid buffs that generally only affect their animal companion or summons, not other party members.  As a result, the Shapeshift Druid not only has weaker action economy, but also finds some of the Druid's better spells less appealing because there probably won't be any legal targets for them.

[oslecamo]

In any case, the Druid's spell list is basically more varied than those of the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer, and not substantially more powerful.  Sure, druids still get Shapechange, but DN's get Planar Binding, so just having one offender apparently isn't enough.

That would simply be because Shapechange is extra broken by itself, but Planar Binding needs a lot of support to get going. whitout dimensional anchor and magic circle against X, which the dread necro doesn't have, good luck actually binding anything as they can just SR and/or teleport/plane shift away from you.

 Sure, Druids get the Bite of X spells, but those buffs do not play nicely at all with the Shapeshifting ability.  In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find more than one or two spells that would make GOD go in those mid-upper levels, even with Spell Compendium.  They're all very situational.

They may be situational, but they're still there for when those situations happen. What makes the Dread Necro and Beguiller T3 it's precisely that they don't have huge spell lists to pick from and change everyday.

[X-Codes]

In any case, the Druid's spell list is basically more varied than those of the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer, and not substantially more powerful.  Sure, druids still get Shapechange, but DN's get Planar Binding, so just having one offender apparently isn't enough.

That would simply be because Shapechange is extra broken by itself, but Planar Binding needs a lot of support to get going. whitout dimensional anchor and magic circle against X, which the dread necro doesn't have, good luck actually binding anything as they can just SR and/or teleport/plane shift away from you.

SR is true for anyone casting Binding.  Magic Circle isn't that difficult to obtain, and dimensional anchor isn't 100% necessary as there are plenty of binds that can't teleport.  The big thing is, however, that Dread Necromancers have access to Planar Binding for basically half the game while Druids get Shapeshift only *very* late in their career.

 Sure, Druids get the Bite of X spells, but those buffs do not play nicely at all with the Shapeshifting ability.  In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find more than one or two spells that would make GOD go in those mid-upper levels, even with Spell Compendium.  They're all very situational.

They may be situational, but they're still there for when those situations happen. What makes the Dread Necro and Beguiller T3 it's precisely that they don't have huge spell lists to pick from and change everyday.

They're there for those situations if you prepared them in the morning.  Guess wrong and you might as well not have any spells in the first place.  The versatility of the Druid's spell list only comes into play if a given situation can wait 8 hours.

[Bauglir]

So... it just hits things with the quickrazor, then. I'd already admitted that at this level, it has to do that if the hand-drawing thing is discarded. It's merely on par with the Expert for raw damage output, but that's still not a loss. People saying it's not a "real" Monk build are preoccupied with what they think a Monk ought to be, and I suppose they think it's valid to say that a "real" Wizard throws fireballs all day?

[veekie]

^^
A "real" Wizard uses spells.
A "real" Expert uses skills.
A "real" Monk would use them monk abilities, wouldn't you say? Except none of them are any use at all.

[oslecamo]

SR is true for anyone casting Binding.  Magic Circle isn't that difficult to obtain, and dimensional anchor isn't 100% necessary as there are plenty of binds that can't teleport.

It's still several leagues under to a sorceror that can bind almost anything. Not to mention the dread necro doesn't have all the mind control tricks to bypass the whole paying costs parts. So you're drastically limited on what you can bind, and you actually have to pay their services. Overal much weaker than planar binding on a caster with the proper suport spells.

 The big thing is, however, that Dread Necromancers have access to Planar Binding for basically half the game while Druids get Shapeshift only *very* late in their career.

Well but the druid gets plenty of other tricks.

Entangle is one of the best 1st spells around.  Then the druid gets superior mobility, pseudo-teleport, Freedom of Movement, Sheltered Vitality, great variety of nukes, and well, just much more than the Dread Necro during his career.

They're there for those situations if you prepared them in the morning.  Guess wrong and you might as well not have any spells in the first place.  The versatility of the Druid's spell list only comes into play if a given situation can wait 8 hours.

Isn't that one of the automatic assumptions on any CO discussion? That prepared casters automatically know whatever is waiting for them and have all the time in the world to prepare? Or that they're loaded with scrolls, either way negating any advantage from spontaneous casting?

[X-Codes]

They're there for those situations if you prepared them in the morning.  Guess wrong and you might as well not have any spells in the first place.  The versatility of the Druid's spell list only comes into play if a given situation can wait 8 hours.

Isn't that one of the automatic assumptions on any CO discussion? That prepared casters automatically know whatever is waiting for them and have all the time in the world to prepare? Or that they're loaded with scrolls, either way negating any advantage from spontaneous casting?

No, the automatic assumption is that full casters of a decent level have a half-dozen (or more) "I Win" buttons prepared that day.  The Druid spell list really doesn't have many "I Win" buttons.

[veekie]

That is why it'd be T2. It'd have about the same variety of available win buttons as a Sorc, despite being a prepared caster.

[oslecamo]

They're there for those situations if you prepared them in the morning.  Guess wrong and you might as well not have any spells in the first place.  The versatility of the Druid's spell list only comes into play if a given situation can wait 8 hours.

Isn't that one of the automatic assumptions on any CO discussion? That prepared casters automatically know whatever is waiting for them and have all the time in the world to prepare? Or that they're loaded with scrolls, either way negating any advantage from spontaneous casting?

No, the automatic assumption is that full casters of a decent level have a half-dozen (or more) "I Win" buttons prepared that day.  The Druid spell list really doesn't have many "I Win" buttons.

Which is by the very definition of the tier system enough to make the druid T2.

The best the dread necro has is "I need to burn extra resources to somehow get magic circle and then cast for 10 min and allow SR and a save and then still have to cut a deal with the monster that's controled by the DM because I don't have all the spells necessary to bypass those parts, not to mention I can't bind the cool stuff because they can just port away".

[Sobolev]

*steers discussion back on topic*

[Sobolev]

So... it just hits things with the quickrazor, then. I'd already admitted that at this level, it has to do that if the hand-drawing thing is discarded. It's merely on par with the Expert for raw damage output, but that's still not a loss. People saying it's not a "real" Monk build are preoccupied with what they think a Monk ought to be, and I suppose they think it's valid to say that a "real" Wizard throws fireballs all day?

People bring up that it's not a "real" monk build, because the argument is that a Monk can do everything an Expert can do and still have all these amazing class features! But if you tank all of your stats to get a usable Charisma and Intelligence, the only two stats you previously could dump, you don't actually have any class features left.  Many of them rely on Wisdom or Strength being quite high for you to use them (i.e. Flurry and Combat Bonus feats requiring Strength; Stunning Fist, Quivering Palm, Wis to AC requiring Wisdom).

A monk who uses the same stats as an Expert (they actually have to be a little higher to get the same number of skill points per level) is not a real monk because he can't actually use any of his class features, the things that are being toted as part of his superiority.

[lans]

My monk would copy JaronKs expert, dropping the poison and stealth, using martial monk variant for EWP,  armor prof, and weapon supremacy or something. Trade in DR, invisible fist, and decisive strike. So poison and stealth vs a more robust character.  Higher AC, +3 on 2 saves, immediate invisibility, and I think a point of DR. I could try to cover stealth but the martial monk only gets 3sp/level.

The Expert probably has the edge overall, but it might be campaign dependent.

[JaronK]

Exactly, Sobolev.  The "Giacomo Monk" that we just saw fails to take advantage of any actual Monk abilities except perhaps saves.  Feats are wasted on trying to get skills Monks traditionally don't use instead of accentuating what few strengths Monks have.  Wis to AC is wasted on a tanked Wis score.  Flurry is wasted on a build that's designed around mobile mounted combat.  Run speed boosts are also wasted on a mounted warrior.  It only shows the Monk class itself being useless, because you have to optimize in spite of the class, not with the class.

The Martial Monk variant that gets three Fighter bonus feats without Prerequisites is probably worth a tier bump at lower levels though... Weapon Supremacy at level 1 is pretty nuts.  I just have horrific visions of a level 2 Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Monk with Weapon Supremacy, Dragonwrought, Epic Toughness, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting going rather insane...

JaronK