Author Topic: Expert vs Monk Challenge!  (Read 151461 times)

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BlackAngelika

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #400 on: June 12, 2011, 04:41:21 PM »
Sorry, but a monk isn't a fighter. I don't think of a monk as a melee class (or a fighting class for that matter). Just a monk.

veekie

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #401 on: June 12, 2011, 04:59:22 PM »
Well, which type of monk then?
The western scribes are basically clerics. Its not the D&D monk.

The eastern monks are either spiritualist ascetics or else pugilists in the  realistic versions. The former is again, clerics. The latter make use of quite lethal weapons, over the eras, not so much unarmed combatants but practitioners of martial arts, as focused on combat as any soldier.
The monasteries were hotbeds for rebellions, more often than not the rebels trained in these monasteries, which were often sited in inaccessible locations where armies can't go up easily.
They trained with the 'monk weapons' not because of exotic nature, but because they are farm tools that can be weaponized. They incorporated weapon drills into the exercises to 'purify the body', the same motions being what you could use a spear for, just as well as a staff.  
The famous qinggong 'flight' is weights training, they can perform feats of acrobatics and athleticism, running faster than most people because of that. The 'iron cloth vest' was endurance training, by use of physical and herbal regimens to toughen the body against blows.
The death touch is a knowledge of pressure points and joints, as well as how to fight using them. This is not the D&D monk. Its more like a rogue with fighter BAB and a speed boost.

The Wuxia or pop culture monk meanwhile is an able warrior, capable of directing their spiritual studies to produce near mystical effects. They wield all sorts of weird weapons, depending on their style. This is well, a swordsage. This is not the D&D monk.

So, what IS the D&D monk supposed to be?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
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Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
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[/spoiler]

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BlackAngelika

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #402 on: June 12, 2011, 05:32:23 PM »
Veekie, you're wasting your time. I'm not arguing anything, so you don't have to prove anything.
Damn, you made me feel like a troll. :(

retkin

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #403 on: June 12, 2011, 05:32:50 PM »
People say 16 bab is important for that final iterative attack. Flurry of blows gives 2 bonus attacks at the highest attack bonus. Add in haste and Snap kick and we now have 5 attacks at your highest bonus, either 16 bab is important because it grants that extra attack, or its not because that attack likely wont hit anyways.

Stunning fist and quivering palm don't sound like death touch to ya? Improved unarmed damage can't be attributed to knowing where to hit people? Perfect self doesn't give dr? Dimension dooring isn't a near mystical ability? Wholeness of body could be a kind of reactive DR. Honestly all that stuff is there, it just wasn't implemented the best, Dimension door should be on a 1d4 round cooldown like the horizon walker or something. They should get dr earlier, the ac bonus should add up faster. It should be easier to get bonus effects on your fists, but you can do some of these fixes no problem.

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #404 on: June 12, 2011, 06:47:50 PM »
I have never read a single dragon magazine, to me its basically just people getting money to homebrew. Anyways ive been lurking here for a long time, and i have loved monks since playing final fantasy tactics, i know they are weak in dnd, but to try to say they suck cause you can use some cheese to make the expert playable is laughable. A monk could use the same cheese but then flurry of blows that poison on shurikens, throwing out way more damage then the expert could even hope to.

The only reason his ac is so low is because of the ridiculous 22 pt buy, which i doubt any dm would inflict upon their players.
Gygax would.

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

JaronK

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #405 on: June 12, 2011, 06:48:59 PM »
    Since it's not relevant to either class (both can take it just as easily) we ignore Nymph's Kiss entirely for this comparison.  This is how we avoid Class X Fallacies.  Also, being Exalted has serious problems and is not available in most games, I've found.

    A Necropolitan can still easily be disguised as living, and only requires that the rest of the party be okay with undead (so, probably no paladins).  An exalted character actually does go out of their way to force the entire party to be good, and is more holy than a Paladin... by a wide margin.  So yes, I've found that a disguisable undead fits in much better than Exalted characters.  Also, note that this isn't necessarily from the underdark... it's just a character that bought one thing which is mostly produced by the Desmodu.  Desmodu are not setting specific, they just live underground.

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    It's not an undead character from the underdark.  Desmodu are from MMII and are not setting specific.  Please keep your facts straight.  While the Desmodu might be in the underdark, so are the Drow... but that doesn't make either creature setting specific, as both can exist elsewhere.  But yes, more DMs are willing to handle an undead character than a character that can't possibly exist due to being from mutually exclusive settings.  

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    Considering the Expert wouldn't even bother doing so?  I said very clearly that there's no reason they'd want to do it, but you've clearly stated your idea of a Monk is one that tries to be an Expert.

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    How do you compare classes?

    By using equivalent levels of optimization to make appropriate characters of each class, and seeing how well they deal with appropriate challenges.

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    Simple.  If you put both in the same party with the same optimization (roughly) in a reasonably normal campaign, would one clearly be outshining the other all the time, or would they basically do things about as well?  

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    Yes, he did.  The Monk you've been describing has spent half his free feats just trying to get what the Expert got for free at level 1.  Plus he killed his other abilities by pumping his Int to 18 to pull it off, so he gimped the heck out of himself trying to do it, and is a failure as a Monk.

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    The build I showed is quite competent in combat.  He doesn't try to flurry or use unarmed strikes because he's not a Monk, he uses skill.  And his damage is far higher per hit in addition to poison effects.

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    Build this Monk.  Remember, you made him Int 18 and burned four feats on skills.  Note the point buy I used for my Expert... note how useless your Monk would be.  Also, note that my build only used three feats and yet was quite effective in combat... more so than I'd imagine a similar Monk would be.

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    You spent FAR too much to do it.  You killed your point buy and your combat feats.  There's a big difference between "at the level a Ninja gets disguise self, everyone could trivially afford a Hat of Disguise" and "at the level an Expert gets any class skills he wants, a Monk could destroy all his own ability to emulate that."

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    JaronK- please show me: where have I ever said that the monk uses UMD better than other classes?

    Every time you've said the Monk isn't weak compared to other classes by showing how they can use UMD, you've said this.  Heck, your entire guide to monks boils down to begging the DM for partially charged wands.

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    Base damage is irrelevant, only total damage matters.  The Expert at level 20 with his Feycraft Quickrazor does 1d3+9d6 + poison damage per hit, while the Monk does 2d10 damage.  

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    2)   The slow fall ability is weak and easily emulated, true, but it is STILL USEFUL.

    I've actually never seen it come up.  If there's a wall right there, just climb down.  

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    3)   And the movement enhancement bonus is applied to all movement forms, not just land speed. This is a very powerful boost, in particular at high levels.

    I bought a cheap bat and completely beat the Monk's run speed.  In fact, the generally cheapest way to get flight speed is via mounts... which the Monk's speed boost is useless for.

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    No, he didn't try to be a Monk.  He tried to be a useful Expert.  And he's far better than the Monk, because the Monk you used gave himself critical MAD failure.

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    Sure.  Necropolitan Whispergnome Expert 6 with Charisma 14, Int 14, Dex 16, Con -, Wisdom 8, Str 6 (22 Point Buy).  Skills:  Maxed Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidate, UMD, Diplomacy, Move Silently, Hide, and Craft Poison, with a few ranks as needed in Handle Animal, Bluff, and Sense Motive.  Feats:  EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor, that feat that lets you use a first level psionic ability once in a while (take it for Psionic Minor Creation), Imperious Command.  If Necropolitan isn't available, swap Imperious Command for Master of Poisons and take the point buy up a little to get a reasonable con score... you'll take Imperious Command later.  Fly around on a Magebreed Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (this is a standard domesticated animal in the underdark, see MMII, and costs a pretty small amount of money) using poisonous attacks (Black Lotus Poison from Psionic Minor Creation) to kill enemies.  Occasionally dismount and sneak up to kill enemies.  At other times force them to cower via Imperious Command and let your bat trip and disable them before you go in for the kill.  The Never Outnumbered skill trick is a good plan too.  Other gear includes some basic armor, a crossbow with gnomish crossbow sight for sniping, a nice masterwork saddle, a few sets of marbles, and a bunch of skill boosting masterwork tools... and of course a Feycraft Quickrazor, so he can use Dex to hit with that without needing Weapon Finesse.

    OK, first my comment on your build and comparison to monk, and then a level 6 monk build of mine.

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    Comment on your expert build

    Note that the more powerful poison is Sinmaker's Surprise, with its higher DC (24) and acid damage that lands anyway (3d6 per hit).  I'll be using that as soon as I get Master of Poisons, which means Necropolitan is mostly there for the ability to avoid being seen by Lifesight and for the Point Buy, as well as for the needed HP increase.

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    I said he doesn't rely on magic items.  He needs a single +2 Cha item.  Everything else is mundane.  Of course I use a few (mundane) items, but they're items that work with the class itself.

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    3kgp and a level, IIRC.  You gain the level back quite quickly... you DO know how Exp works in this game, right?  I'm certainly well below WBL with this build.

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    Can that really be your answer to build an expert showing how great the expert class abilities are?

    Yes, I used his skills.  Every choice was made working with that.

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    I'm WELL within WBL for level 6.  You can afford the Necropolitan transition at level 3.  Other than the Cha boost item, nothing in that build costs more than 1kgp.

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    I blanked on the name, but it just lets you use a first level psionic ability once per day.  So you have poison for six hours per day.

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    More detailed questions on the expert build:

    The bat auto-detects at 100 feet out.  When that's not an option, he just gets up close... the enemy can't see him, and against any enemy that's not hiding he'll spot them plenty far out.  Most enemies aren't hiding when you find them.  Generally speaking, adventurers are on the offensive... you're sneaking into the enemy dungeon.  As such, you are hiding and sneaking up on them, and they're not hiding.

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    On the bat mount and handle animal, a lot of questions: What are the stats of this bat thing?

    See MMII.  It's a CR 4 creature... it's under D (Desmodu Hunting Bat).  The Warbeast template (necessary because it gives a cost for the creature) is at the end of MMII.  Also see Magebreed if that's available (though hardly necessary, it does help)

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    How likely is it that it will survive encounters for level 6 characters on a regular basis? Read: how often per average encounter will this expert have to cough up money for it again and take off 6 weeks for training another one?

    With 47 Hp and an AC of around 24 (with some cheap studded leather barding) he's far more durable than most Monks.  So, less often per average encounter than the Monk has to make a new character sheet.

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    And what if that expert then had moved to a different country where no such bats are available?

    He buys a different domesticated animal, obviously.  Maybe something with a burrow speed if it's an underground area, or a climb speed if it's mountainous, or a fast movement speed in the plains.  As a rule societies have the right sort mounts for their area.

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    Plus, is such a mount as an animal ready to accept an undead as a rider?

    By RAW, yes.  

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    Worst case, one of his 6 to 8 tricks (which are trained in to begin with) is used up on this, but by RAW it's okay even without that.

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    No, I just bought the bat.  You can do that you know.  They're sold in markets like Warhorses.

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    It's DC 5 to ride such a creature without penalties.  I don't even need the synergy bonus.  Seriously, do you even know the rules?

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    No, that's what marbles and sneaking up for surprise rounds are for.

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    Not amazingly, but he's T5.  He's hitting with about half his attacks.

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    • The iajutsu damage is currently going to be +4d6 (at a likely +14 skill bonus as far as I can see) for one attack per encounter. Deduct from that the -2 of damage and you get on the first round (even if it works) in melee +12 damage. So even, if iajutsu works, what is that going to matter in combat vs CR 6 creatures?

    You forgot the 3d6 Con damage, which can instant kill many CR 6s.  Also, it's not one attack per encounter.  He can just drop marbles under the creature.

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    At level 6, assuming he was created in a Desecrated Area (standard practice), he has 6d12+12 hp, or 56 hp.  How much does your Int 18 Monk have?  His intimidate bonus isn't great yet but it will be over time.  Where it works it will work and where it won't he won't.  He won't use that on immunes, obviously.

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    (PS: you cannot use a lyre of building to craft poison faster; it can only be used for building).

    You might want to read that item over again.  It does in fact say you can "magically construct... whatever."  So, go nuts.  But that wasn't for poison making.  That was for making anything he cares to make.  I just like making things.  That could be forts, or it could be new armor... whatever works.

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    You just don't understand how to use Iaijutsu Focus (you didn't get what the marbles were for), but more to the point your Monk is incapable of using Iaijutsu Focus.

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    Monk level 6 build
    Necropolitan Whispergnome Monk 6 with Charisma 14, Int 14, Dex 16, Con -, Wisdom 8, Str 6 (22 Point Buy).

    No no, Int 18, remember?  No using Shrodinger's Monk.  So, tank some of your scores here. 

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     Skills: Maxed UMD, Diplomacy, Move Silently, Hide, and Craft Poison, with a few ranks as needed in Handle Animal (for that bat mount, if that is really feasible, see my doubts above) and Sense motive. Feats:  Skill Prodigy (for UMD and possibly handle animal), that feat that lets you use a first level psionic ability once in a while (take it for Psionic Minor Creation), Improved natural attack.
    The differences to the expert for the time being that
    -   no iajutsu focus is needed (and hence no EWP gnomish quickrazor) since the unarmed damage is way more powerful (see also below).

    Sorry, you don't have Weapon Finesse and since you're using that oh so superior unarmed strike, you can't have feycraft stuff.  Your base to hit is only +1 when flurrying.  You're an incompetent failure.  Don't forget your damage, which instead of 1d3+4d6, is instead 1d8-2.  If you use Sleeping Tiger so you can hit the broadside of a barn, then that bonus feat advantage you talked so much about is blown on just being able to catch up with the Expert again (Weapon Finesse instead of just using a Feycraft Weapon) and while you have nice initiative, that's about it.  And your damage is piss poor due to dropping Str.

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    The poison isn't a touch attack, you have to hit them with your +1 to hit (or if you can hit, you still have no damage to speak of and your feats are blown).  I'm sorry, but you've completely failed to be a melee class, because you were trying to be an expert.  You're utterly useless.  You have failed completely to make a Monk.  Try again, this time stop trying to be an expert.  Make a real Monk.

    And don't forget, your Int had to be 18, because you've been saying this whole time your int was 18.  Don't forget to use your bonus feats to have some actual advantage this time, not just a chance to catch up to the Expert again.

    JaronK[/list]
    « Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 08:28:16 PM by JaronK »

    retkin

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #406 on: June 12, 2011, 07:25:15 PM »
    Why is he locked into 18 int? He used the sleeping tiger variant which gives weapon finesse btw. Half your arguments involve stuff that the monk can copy since you are just using feats and templated animals the monk could also get?

    JaronK

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #407 on: June 12, 2011, 07:32:42 PM »
    Why is he locked into 18 int? He used the sleeping tiger variant which gives weapon finesse btw. Half your arguments involve stuff that the monk can copy since you are just using feats and templated animals the monk could also get?

    Giacomo has spent this whole time saying his Monk would have 18 Int so as to be a better Expert, mostly because Skill Protegy uses your Int score to say how many skills you gain.  Now we see that he can't do that, because it screws the entire build (which we knew to begin with, of course).

    As far as stuff the Monk can do, well, frankly the Monk does very poorly with what that Expert did.  His damage is pathetic because he can't use Iaijutsu Focus with his unarmed strike.  The mount shows that his falling abilities and movement abilities were useless to begin with (he claims slow fall would be useful, but how often are you flying near a while if your bat dies?).  Getting the class skills he needs to fake being an Expert ends up screwing him, and Sleeping Tiger might help his to hit bonus but his damage is still pathetic (not sure why he's claiming he gets the damage of a large monk... he's small with INA, not medium). 

    Plus, his primary criticism of IF basically boiled down to "I didn't know Marbles existed."

    JaronK

    veekie

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #408 on: June 12, 2011, 07:45:51 PM »
    Because the Monk doesn't have the skill points, and without the feat that adds class skills or Able Learner, all of those cost double.
    The Monk needs:
    Str for damage, to hit
    Dex for AC, init, monk class skills, to hit with finesse(Str becomes secondary, but you have no bonus damage to use, you'd want it high)
    Con for hp, your AC is low enough as it is, and your hit dice is nothing amazing.
    Wis for ability DCs and AC.

    So normally, you're Str, Dex, Wis, Con, in that order. Switching your to hit to Dex or Wis just changes the order, you cannot drop Str because your damage is already nearly insignificant. Thats ok, because you can completely dump your Int and Cha....

    If you're using Handle Animal and UMD, you need Int to take the skill ranks. You need a variety of feats to reduce the investment cost to the point where you can take them without pumping Int. However, you have to abandon your monk class skills for the most part, until the upper mid levels where you can afford magic items to meet the static DCs. You need Cha to reduce the entry gap for those skills, perhaps once you have your +10 competence items you can do without.
    So you just turned a Str, Dex, Wis, Con, stat array into a Str, Cha, Dex, Int, Wis, Con array. Where do the points come from? Either you set some of your secondaries(reducing defensive power significantly) on fire or you reduce your already paltry damage further.

    The Expert using Iaijutsu to melee has what, Str, Dex, Con, then whatever he feels like? He has enough base class skills to cover Iaijutsu, Handle Animal and UMD, even if he dumps Int. He might blow a feat on getting a nice weapon, or use a race with a racial proficiency. Maybe get some armor. Thats about it for a minimally competent combat Expert, the rest is just putting feats into where anyone using the same fighting style would.
    Still has plenty of skill points left though, maybe he can get Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive and some Cha to be a diplomat. Or maybe Survival, Spot and Listen for a down to earth woodsy type. Maybe whore a bunch of knowledge skills and see if you can't apply that to damage too, though he might have to undump Int.
    The mind transcends the body.
    It's also a little cold because of that.
    Please get it a blanket.

    I wish I could read your mind,
    I can barely read mine.

    "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

    [spoiler]
    "Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
    -Ibuki Suika, on overkill

    To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
    Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
    Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
    Khiliarkhou Astrape!
    [/spoiler]

    There is no higher price than 'free'.

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    Bauglir

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #409 on: June 12, 2011, 08:45:43 PM »
    No, you dump Wis and do exactly what Jaron's Expert did minus the Intimidate. Done. I typed out a more detailed version above, but the fact that Iaijutsu requires a slashing weapon does mean that the monk has a setback with using his fists for the tiny amount of extra damage that they grant relative to the quickrazor, since he does need to use yet another feat to grab that one that lets you do slashing damage. Still, you can always just not bother, it doesn't actually matter that much and probably isn't worth the feat.

    "Trying to be an Expert" isn't a fault when the result is just as playable as an actual Expert. The Monk fails at what its class features say it should be good at. The Expert has no class features to tell it to be good at anything. Barring that it is highly misleading to players, which is worse?

    EDIT: A Wizard who uses Uncanny Forethought sucks because he's trying to be a Sorcerer. A Swordsage who takes Adaptive Style sucks because he's trying to be a Warblade. A Druid who takes Natural Spell so he can cast Cure spells in combat sucks because he's trying to be a Cleric (hint: this one isn't like the others, but can you figure out the correct reason why?). A Cleric who takes Divine Metamagic sucks because he's trying to be an Incantatrix. An Ur-priest sucks because he's trying to be a Cleric.
    « Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 09:00:40 PM by Bauglir »
    So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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    Midnight_v

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #410 on: June 12, 2011, 09:51:59 PM »
    Quote from: retkin
    I have never read a single dragon magazine, to me its basically just people getting money to homebrew. Anyways ive been lurking here for a long time, and i have loved monks since playing final fantasy tactics, i know they are weak in dnd, but to try to say they suck cause you can use some cheese to make the expert playable is laughable. A monk could use the same cheese but then flurry of blows that poison on shurikens, throwing out way more damage then the expert could even hope to.

    The only reason his ac is so low is because of the ridiculous 22 pt buy, which i doubt any dm would inflict upon their players.
    I fully gree with the bolded part, and welcome, I'm glad you decided to chime in.  ;)

    Quote
    The Wuxia or pop culture monk meanwhile is an able warrior, capable of directing their spiritual studies to produce near mystical effects. They wield all sorts of weird weapons, depending on their style. This is well, a swordsage. This is not the D&D monk.

    So, what IS the D&D monk supposed to be?   
    See swordsage, the monk really was supposed to be a Wuxia warrior, pop culture style, but the phb was written and tested, and RE-Written by people who really had no Idea how the game works. The looked at 1 small narrow view and spit balled the rest.
    Thats why it LOOKS like the monk has no role. He's supposed to be something he's not.
    \\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

    veekie

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #411 on: June 12, 2011, 09:58:56 PM »
    Well, mostly if I wanted to even get the image of the wuxia monk I wouldn't even be able to wield the weapons of the martial schools. The monk is supposed to turn farm tools and inferior weapons into effective murdertools with sheer skill, not be stuck with farm tools.
    The mind transcends the body.
    It's also a little cold because of that.
    Please get it a blanket.

    I wish I could read your mind,
    I can barely read mine.

    "Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

    [spoiler]
    "Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
    -Ibuki Suika, on overkill

    To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
    Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
    Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
    Khiliarkhou Astrape!
    [/spoiler]

    There is no higher price than 'free'.

    "I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

    JaronK

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #412 on: June 12, 2011, 10:20:11 PM »
    No, you dump Wis and do exactly what Jaron's Expert did minus the Intimidate. Done. I typed out a more detailed version above, but the fact that Iaijutsu requires a slashing weapon does mean that the monk has a setback with using his fists for the tiny amount of extra damage that they grant relative to the quickrazor, since he does need to use yet another feat to grab that one that lets you do slashing damage. Still, you can always just not bother, it doesn't actually matter that much and probably isn't worth the feat.

    Iaijutsu Focus requires drawing the weapon.  There's no way to use it with unarmed strikes.  And it is a pretty significant amount of damage... +4d6 damage at level 6 that works on any enemy (unlike sneak attack) is pretty significant, especially compared to the 1d8-2 damage that Monk is doing.

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    "Trying to be an Expert" isn't a fault when the result is just as playable as an actual Expert. The Monk fails at what its class features say it should be good at. The Expert has no class features to tell it to be good at anything. Barring that it is highly misleading to players, which is worse?

    The Expert has one class feature, namely access to all skills.  So, it does what it says on the tin.  If you want to make a good Expert, you do so with skills... but a good Expert is rarely

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    EDIT: A Wizard who uses Uncanny Forethought sucks because he's trying to be a Sorcerer. A Swordsage who takes Adaptive Style sucks because he's trying to be a Warblade. A Druid who takes Natural Spell so he can cast Cure spells in combat sucks because he's trying to be a Cleric (hint: this one isn't like the others, but can you figure out the correct reason why?). A Cleric who takes Divine Metamagic sucks because he's trying to be an Incantatrix. An Ur-priest sucks because he's trying to be a Cleric.

    Except a Wizard can totally play at being a Sorcerer, gaining spontaneous casting in addition to whatever else he's doing (I prefer to do it via Shadowcraft Mage).  A Monk playing at being an Expert is a waste though... Giacomo has done a great job proving that, by making incompetent Monks (the first was a concept Monk with 18 Int that obviously doesn't work at all, the second does pathetic damage and completely wastes all his class abilities).  You can see that he loses out on AC (can't wear armor, gets only a +1 bonus to AC due to his class features because his Wisdom was tanked, compared to the Expert probably wearing a Chain Shirt + Dastanas or something), can't use his class features (no run speed bonus or anything while mounted), and is far less mobile.

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #413 on: June 12, 2011, 10:38:33 PM »
    Well, mostly if I wanted to even get the image of the wuxia monk I wouldn't even be able to wield the weapons of the martial schools. The monk is supposed to turn farm tools and inferior weapons into effective murdertools with sheer skill, not be stuck with farm tools.
    Again... they're concept of what they were looking for was a little busted also.
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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #414 on: June 12, 2011, 10:45:56 PM »
    Giacomo's attempts at making a Monk be an Expert have been hampered by attempting to still use most of a Monk's class features. Dump the AC bonus, dump Flurry. Wear real armor, maybe carry a shield while you're at it. Giggle because you still get Evasion, which is at least something. Especially when you're hiding and AoE effects are the most obvious (if not effective) enemy tactic for dealing with it.

    You have pockets, yes? I don't think the rules actually explain what drawing a weapon is, mechanically, just assuming it would be obvious to players. Putting my hands in and out of my pockets seems as logical as gnome quickrazors for pulling it off, so I don't think you have a leg to stand on there. Again, unless I missed that definition. (Also, this is just a misunderstanding because I wasn't clear, I meant that a monk's unarmed damage is an insignificant boost over the quickrazor, and would be even at level 20, not that Iaijutsu was insignificant).
    So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #415 on: June 12, 2011, 11:00:11 PM »
    1) The feat that lets you use a psionic power is probably Hidden Talent (XPH, p. 67. Must be taken at first level)

    2) Pockets are not that common in clothing from the period that D&D is emulating, and even if it is, the gnomish quickrazor is explicitly called out as being sheathed after every single attack (at the cost of being unarmed when it's not your turn), which hands are not (and in fact, this would be against the quite common thought that monks use their whole body to attack with, and not just hands)

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #416 on: June 12, 2011, 11:06:30 PM »
    2) Pockets are not that common in clothing from the period that D&D is emulating, and even if it is, the gnomish quickrazor is explicitly called out as being sheathed after every single attack (at the cost of being unarmed when it's not your turn), which hands are not (and in fact, this would be against the quite common thought that monks use their whole body to attack with, and not just hands)

    2b) Your player would also have to declare that at such a time as their hands were in their pockets, they did not threaten the square in front of them.
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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #417 on: June 13, 2011, 01:25:11 AM »
    I don't really see a reason to make putting your hands in your pocket anything more than a free action, but YMMV, I suppose.  Quick draw is admittedly necessary to draw them, but eh. At any rate, I'm offering this as an alternative to the 100% RAW, but utterly ridiculous option of just using the quickrazors to trigger Iaijutsu, since the skill doesn't require you to attack with the weapon you draw. I can't unnecessarily handicap my own argument to demonstrate its strength, then (since we're arguing about strict RAW, then, and not what a reasonable DM should allow?)

    EDIT: Oh, and if it matters, a Monk's Outfit is explicitly stated to have pockets in the folds, and I think a Monk's Outfit is a reasonable default assumption for a Monk's outfit.
    « Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 01:27:21 AM by Bauglir »
    So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

    In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #418 on: June 13, 2011, 01:48:04 AM »
    Iaijutsu Focus requires drawing the weapon.  There's no way to use it with unarmed strikes. 
    The text mentions that Iaijutsu focus is how martial artists break boards with their bare hands.
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    Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
    « Reply #419 on: June 13, 2011, 02:21:09 AM »
    Iaijutsu Focus requires drawing the weapon.  There's no way to use it with unarmed strikes. 
    The text mentions that Iaijutsu focus is how martial artists break boards with their bare hands.

    That's a separate use for the skill.  Read it closer... against enemies, you have to draw the weapon.  Against objects, you do not, but you can have no other distractions when you have that second usage.  So yes, you can do unarmed Iaijutsu strikes... but only against unattended objects when nothing else is distracting you.  That's not what's being talked about here.

    As for pulling hands out of pockets as drawing a weapon... the rules actually do state that you have to draw an object to use the "draw or sheathe a weapon" option.  Your hand (or whatever body part you use) is not an object... it's part of a creature.  So, no dice there.  As for drawing other weapons and then kicking them (or whatever), well, that doesn't seem like something that's going to be allowed most of the time, but if we're going for strict RAW even when it doesn't make sense, then I'll remind you folks that Monks aren't by RAW proficient with unarmed strikes.  That's obviously not RAI and wouldn't be enforced in most games, but the same can be said of drawing one weapon to use Iaijutsu Focus damage with another.

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