Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[JaronK]

As a note, the Expert is supposed to be a bit weaker in combat... he's got all class skills, so he does everything else better.  But with that said, Iajuitsu Focus + Blurstriking Gnomish Quickrazors can do a very significant amount of damage, and using UMD to turn into a Dwarf Ancestor can really help out your AC (you have to be an outsider for the latter to work, otherwise Crucian is the best you can do).  And Imperious Command + Intimidate + the armor in Drow of the Underdark that lets you intimidate as a move action is quite nice.  If you can manage to go first (+1 Eager Armor Spikes of Warning?) and get to him fast enough to keep him cowering, he'll never act... which means he's flat footed permanently.  Just make sure your Intimidate skill is high enough (Item Familiar?).

JaronK

[Epimetheus]

I suppose this any skills thing is getting out of hand.

The impression I'm getting is that lacking certain key skills [or that lack decent spellcasting] will make a class completely subpar to an optimized Expert. The way it's been described, the optimized Expert is Tier 3... That means any properly built Human Paragon is also Tier 3. What. As in a monk that dips 1 level of human paragon (and has able learner) has fixed all his/her problems.

[Bozwevial]

Well, the Human Paragon gets fewer skill points than the Expert does. Not to mention that the Monk would have fewer skill points to allocate anyway, so the Expert is ahead in multiple areas.

[betrayor]

In monk's defense there is an alternative class feature that gives you wildshape......

[Toptomcat]

Where exactly are the rules for the Lucid Dreaming skill? This is the first I've heard of it.

[Mixster]

In monk's defense there is an alternative class feature that gives you wildshape......

Where is that printed? That could actually be quite useful if you keep your flurry, fast movement and AC bonus, and you just give up some of those weird useless abilities, or weapon profs.

[Saxony]

Where exactly are the rules for the Lucid Dreaming skill? This is the first I've heard of it.

[Saxony]

Where exactly are the rules for the Lucid Dreaming skill? This is the first I've heard of it.

Where is that printed? That could actually be quite useful if you keep your flurry, fast movement and AC bonus, and you just give up some of those weird useless abilities, or weapon profs.

You quoted the wrong post here.

[Mixster]

Where exactly are the rules for the Lucid Dreaming skill? This is the first I've heard of it.

Where is that printed? That could actually be quite useful if you keep your flurry, fast movement and AC bonus, and you just give up some of those weird useless abilities, or weapon profs.

You quoted the wrong post here.

What, I do not see that. What did I quote wrong.

Nobody saw that... 

[awaken DM golem]

Well ... it isn't really because Expert is such the Dish ; it's that all it has is Skills.

Monk semi-core-ish intended , gets the 3 bonus feats that might bypass some qualifications.
Expert can't do that.

Expert has skills ... Monk needs the UA/Srd alternative Feat that gets any one Skill, just to keep up.
And Monk falls behind anyway, because of MAD.


But yeah, it's kinda funny ...  ...  that the Monk Class features are weaker than some of the standard skills.

[ninjarabbit]

It wouldn't be too hard to get intimidate fairly high by level 10 and beat a monk's counter check (1d20+ 10 hit dice+ wis modifier), so maybe 25 or so on average, 35 or 36 at the very most.

13 skill ranks
+2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks in bluff
+2 masterwork item
+2-5 from cha depending on how much you want to invest
+2 from nymph's kiss
+5 from fearsome armor
+3 if you want to invest in skill focus (intimidate)
+1 from abrasive trait
+x from item familiar


So it's pretty easy to beat a monk's counter check

[betrayor]

In monk's defense there is an alternative class feature that gives you wildshape......

Where is that printed? That could actually be quite useful if you keep your flurry, fast movement and AC bonus, and you just give up some of those weird useless abilities, or weapon profs.

It is in dragon 324.....

You lose fast movement and gain wildshape.....

[Sobolev]

In monk's defense there is an alternative class feature that gives you wildshape......

Where is that printed? That could actually be quite useful if you keep your flurry, fast movement and AC bonus, and you just give up some of those weird useless abilities, or weapon profs.

It is in dragon 324.....

You lose fast movement and gain wildshape.....

That sounds too good to be believed.

[Mixster]

In monk's defense there is an alternative class feature that gives you wildshape......

Where is that printed? That could actually be quite useful if you keep your flurry, fast movement and AC bonus, and you just give up some of those weird useless abilities, or weapon profs.

It is in dragon 324.....

You lose fast movement and gain wildshape.....

That sounds too good to be believed.

My thoughts exactly. This monk could easily be tier 3 or 4. Especially with beast strike.

[betrayor]

to be fair you also lose slow fall and still mind....
You also gain resist nature's lure and you have to be lawful neutral....

[Bozwevial]

to be fair you also lose slow fall and still mind....
You also gain resist nature's lure and you have to be lawful neutral....

Because those are huge losses.

[Sobolev]

I need independent verification, because again, this is too absurd to be believed.

[Havok4]

I just got to look at that acf myself, I wonder how I managed to miss that. It is indeed very good. The wild shape is somewhat slower than a druid but it is still acceptable and kicks in at level 6, just when a monk would begin the sharper bit of their decent into uselessness. You lose slow fall, still mind, and your selectable bonus feats, you do not lose fast movement as far as I can tell. That actually makes monks a decent class, solving its high level scaling issues and MAD. Also it amounts to a martial arts using bear in a can. Although it makes monks worse for the first 5 levels.

[MalcolmSprye]

Is Dragon magazine  widely accepted as valid? I know my GM requires we clear stuff from Dragon with him.

I just got to look at that acf myself, I wonder how I managed to miss that. It is indeed very good. The wild shape is somewhat slower than a druid but it is still acceptable and kicks in at level 6, just when a monk would begin the sharper bit of their decent into uselessness. You lose slow fall, still mind, and your selectable bonus feats, you do not lose fast movement as far as I can tell. That actually makes monks a decent class, solving its high level scaling issues and MAD. Also it amounts to a martial arts using bear in a can. Although it makes monks worse for the first 5 levels.

[Sobolev]

Is Dragon magazine  widely accepted as valid? I know my GM requires we clear stuff from Dragon with him.

I just got to look at that acf myself, I wonder how I managed to miss that. It is indeed very good. The wild shape is somewhat slower than a druid but it is still acceptable and kicks in at level 6, just when a monk would begin the sharper bit of their decent into uselessness. You lose slow fall, still mind, and your selectable bonus feats, you do not lose fast movement as far as I can tell. That actually makes monks a decent class, solving its high level scaling issues and MAD. Also it amounts to a martial arts using bear in a can. Although it makes monks worse for the first 5 levels.

As far as I know it's usually a "Check Dragon Magazine with me" situation"  That's what everyone I know does.