Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[retkin]

On the chart for monks theres no new ability at 5 or 9 that lowers flurry of blows attack penalty, so (monk1/x4) would still receive the -1 penalty to flurry of blows, and it would disappear when the character hits 9th level regardless of what class he takes.

[Sinfire Titan]

On the chart for monks theres no new ability at 5 or 9 that lowers flurry of blows attack penalty, so (monk1/x4) would still receive the -1 penalty to flurry of blows, and it would disappear when the character hits 9th level regardless of what class he takes.

By RAW, this is correct. You only lose out on Greater Flurry, but the attack penalties disappear on their own. That makes Monk 1 so much better.


So, Monk 1/Expert 19 it is!

[JaronK]

I cannot believe what I am reading here.
JaronK, please, at least revise your awful expert build ...

You haven't posted your Monk build, but we all know what it looks like... massively campaign dependent, requiring very specific available magical gear, high point buy, and multiple campaign settings merged together to be even baseline functional.  So, no commentary from you.

I like my Expert build... it's obviously thrown together as a copy of an old Factotum build I actually played in game for a bit, but unlike the Monks you've described, it's actually appropriate for the class... it's a skill monkey that uses skills for everything, because that's what an Expert does.  It's not pretending to be anything other than what it is.  As a T5 build it's pretty darn reasonable.  Multiple attack options, functional in multiple areas... sure, it's no Factotum and definitely no Wizard, but it's appropriate for a specific sort of play (NPC class assassin).  Might even make a good enemy NPC to throw at the players sometime.

JaronK

[JaronK]

On the chart for monks theres no new ability at 5 or 9 that lowers flurry of blows attack penalty, so (monk1/x4) would still receive the -1 penalty to flurry of blows, and it would disappear when the character hits 9th level regardless of what class he takes.

I don't think this works, because most likely the phrase "When a monk reaches 5th level" refers to class level 5 (since it's saying you're still being a monk) not character level 5 as would be necessary for it to work with Monk 1/X4.

JaronK

[retkin]

Why does greater flurry get its own label on the chart then? Is a Monk4/Fighter 1 not a monk anymore? Did that monk not reach 5th level?

[JaronK]

Why does greater flurry get its own label on the chart then? Is a Monk4/Fighter 1 not a monk anymore? Did that monk not reach 5th level?

Tables are just guidelines unless specifically referenced by the text.  Note that Greater Flurry, in text, is in the same rules chunk as the rest of the Flurry of Blows ability.  The text seems to be referring to class level, given context... I see nothing to indicate that it means character level there, and context strongly indicates class level.  Compare the text for the reduced penalties to the text for greater flurry:

"When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th it disappears."
"When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves."

You're trying to claim that the first refers to character level, and the second to class level.  Considering it's the exact same phrasing in the exact same section (Flurry of Blows), I can't buy that.

Furthermore, note that page 23 clearly states that level, in the context of class entries, means "The character's level in that class."  This is similar to how the PHB states at the beginning of the spells section that level always means caster level in the context of spell entries.  I assume that seals it that it means "when a monk reaches her 5th monk level?"

JaronK

[retkin]

That references the table only, not anywhere in the text it says level. Why does every other ability in the game have a marker on the table besides the flurry of blows mini upgrades?

Why does slow fall use the text "improves with her monk level" which clearly means level in the monk class, as opposed to the flurry ability? Id say the greater flurry text means the flurry text is poorly written not that it negates the flurry penalties fading.

Edit, also its funny you mention the 2 campaign settings about the monk, but use 3.0 material (iajutsu), abuse psionic minor creation, crazy templated mount (anything that requires 11 syllables to say the name of is ridiculous) you cheese point buy with becoming undead. All these selling points of your expert are just one tricks that work from different books, i could see getting 1 by most dms, but getting all of them into an actual non high optimization game, i doubt it.

A 1 level dip in factotum and able learner allows a monk to do every trick the expert could possibly do. I would assume most people would agree that the 1 feat trade off is worth 19 levels of class features (even if they are the monks non optimal ones)

[Midnight_v]

I can't help but think retkin is a dupe account. Is it really that crucial? Come from nowhere w/no introduction and start in this exact thread with pro monk defense complaining things like:

3.0 material (iajutsu), abuse psionic minor creation

I'm pretty sure OA got a 3.5 update, so you're just in the dark there and abuse and use are relative terms that "YOU" don't get to define... perse.
I'll give you the mount. I hate templated bullshit myself, but I don't find you to be a genuine poster. Who are you Retkin?

[Sir Giacomo]

At this point, Giacomo MUST be a troll.  Can we get him banned or something.  Unless he starts contributing more than "Monks are clearly better than Experts, you guys are just jealous" I would prefer if he stopped bumping my thread.  I think the build posted by JaronK is good and similar to the conclusion of this thread 10 pages ago.  Saying "A monk with 18 Int can do all the same and have class features!" is just nonsense.  I outlined all of the monk class features several pages ago.  Many of them require a high strength to make up for your poor BAB.  Many more require a good Wisdom bonus.  You can't have an 18 in everything in most games.

Also, monk bonus feats are HIGHLY limited, they aren't just "Four bonus feats' or even close.  Many of the feats are just bad.

The only reasonable monk mentioned thus far was the Wild Shape Monk, which you would then go in to MoMF and then go from there.  No one is debating that, but that's not really what was being discussed either.

Since it's not relevant to either class (both can take it just as easily) we ignore Nymph's Kiss entirely for this comparison.  This is how we avoid Class X Fallacies.  Also, being Exalted has serious problems and is not available in most games, I've found.

Note that you've just mixed settings.  Carmendine Monk requires Forgotten Realms, while Skill Protege requires that funny K one.  Taking both is less likely to be available... I find that while one setting is reasonable, taking from multiple is more likely to make DMs balk.

Also, you've just burned four feats solely to try and play catch up with the Expert.  That right there indicates you're making a rather piss poor Monk.  And while the Monk does get three bonus feats (level 1, 2, and 6), that's one of their few actually good class features... throwing away that advantage just to play catch up is a poor choice.  Not to mention completely free choice feats (such as level gained feats) are more valuable than locked in choice feats (such as the Monk ones), except of course where you can get those feats without prerequisites... if you wanted said feats anyway.  By Comparison, an Expert could just get a Monk's Belt and be most of the way there (though I can't imagine why he'd want to, he's an Expert, not a Monk).

It depends on how easy it is to get that ability.  Nobody cares that CA Ninjas get Disguise Self at level 10, because Hats of Disguise are cheap as dirt.

However, you just spent 4 of your 7 total free feats trying to catch up with the Expert... that's a HUGE expense.

I do not think so. Of course, the monk using four of his 7 total free feats for skills is weaker in combat than a monk using all his 7 free feats for combat. But this is not a monk build vs monk build comparison, but a monk vs expert comparison.

Exactly.  A Ring of Feather Falling is trivially cheap (it's less than half the WBL of a level 4 character, even... by level 8 or so you could buy three of them just to practice juggling), so the fact that you get a worse version of that as a class feature is pretty irrelevant.  Compare that to spending 4 of your 7 free feats (8 if you're human)... ouch.

Exactly.  Both of us breathe just fine, so breathing has nothing to do with anything.  If both do it, it's irrelevant.

Sure.  If there was a feat that gave Cha to AC and was available to all, it would still be better on a Sorcerer than on a Fighter.  Why?  Because Sorcerers already use Charisma.  It would not be a Class X Fallacy to say that Sorcerers are better than Fighters in part because they could use that feat (well, it would be a silly argument, but not a CXF).  But in this case, you've been saying that Monks are better than Experts because of UMD (in part).  Except that Monks do not have Cha synergy, and UMD is cross class for them... while it's in class for Experts.  Monks are not any better at using UMD than anyone else (in fact, they're worse than most) so using UMD in a discussion of the comparative abilities of the two classes is a fallacy... if you count it in favor of the Monk.

In this case, no.  Monks are worse at UMD than Experts.  They're also worse than all classes with any Cha synergy, as well as all classes that actually get UMD as a class skill.  Yes, Monks would really like to have Divine Power on them... but so would Rogues, who would also draw even more benefit from PAO into a Hydra.  EVERY class can be made powerful with spells.

But for some, the synergy of some spells is better than for others. Rogue and monk benefit greatly from divine power, fighter not so much. Haste is great for classes that can get full attacks, not so great for a caster (whose number of spell attacks is not increased). And so on.
I feel that we are quite close in our opinions here, yet you come to completely odd conclusions imo.

Rogues just wouldn't use Enlarge, obviously.  They prefer things like Knock, Lesser Vigor, and various things that let them do their job better.  One way or another, they'd better with UMD by a country mile.

Ah, and here's where you're so wrong... NOBODY WANTS TO EMULATE A MONK.  You WANT to emulate an Expert because darn it UMD and Diplomacy and Iaijutsu Focus and Move Silently and Hide and so on and so forth are actually useful.

See my comments above on how I would go about to compare two classes: by making them comparable as much as possible. Ah, and btw monk already has move silently and hide as class skills. And when a feat allows one class to emulate already a big chunk of what the other class gets, while the opposite is not true, it tells something about the relative power of classes.

Who the hell wants unarmed strike, feather fall, and faster ground based run speed?

Heck, a single flying mount does better than tons of Monk abilities.  If I'm making a good Expert, I'm not thinking "man, if only I had unarmed strikes right now."  I'm thinking "how can I use my skills to be better at what I do?"  Perhaps I make a nice archer, with high Knowledge skills + Knowledge Devotion.  Perhaps I make an assassin, using that minor talent feat to get Psionic Minor Creation and combining that with Move Silently, Hide, and Iaijutsu Focus, along with Master of Poisons (with a few Craft ranks), and throw in Imperious Command + Intimidate, then round it out with some nice social skills... and don't forget the UMD.  Now I can sneak up on people and scare them into cowering or kill them, plus make everyone my friend.  That's how I play an Expert, using his own abilities, not just trying to emulate Monk abilities that nobody cares about (seriously, at some point either that archer or assassin's going to want to be able to fly... so he can use Handle Animal and Ride and have a flying mount.  Now why would he care about Safe Fall and land movement speed?).

Your Monk was trying to be an Expert.  That means the Expert wins outright.  The Expert wouldn't dream of trying to be a Monk... why would he want to do that?

Sure.  Necropolitan Whispergnome Expert 6 with Charisma 14, Int 14, Dex 16, Con -, Wisdom 8, Str 6 (22 Point Buy).  Skills:  Maxed Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidate, UMD, Diplomacy, Move Silently, Hide, and Craft Poison, with a few ranks as needed in Handle Animal, Bluff, and Sense Motive.  Feats:  EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor, that feat that lets you use a first level psionic ability once in a while (take it for Psionic Minor Creation), Imperious Command.  If Necropolitan isn't available, swap Imperious Command for Master of Poisons and take the point buy up a little to get a reasonable con score... you'll take Imperious Command later.  Fly around on a Magebreed Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (this is a standard domesticated animal in the underdark, see MMII, and costs a pretty small amount of money) using poisonous attacks (Black Lotus Poison from Psionic Minor Creation) to kill enemies.  Occasionally dismount and sneak up to kill enemies.  At other times force them to cower via Imperious Command and let your bat trip and disable them before you go in for the kill.  The Never Outnumbered skill trick is a good plan too.  Other gear includes some basic armor, a crossbow with gnomish crossbow sight for sniping, a nice masterwork saddle, a few sets of marbles, and a bunch of skill boosting masterwork tools... and of course a Feycraft Quickrazor, so he can use Dex to hit with that without needing Weapon Finesse.

Note that you'll need an item of +2 Cha by level 6 to qualify for Imperious Command.  Later on I'll probably invest in a Lyre of Building so that I can craft stuff extremely fast (with a decent Charisma it's quite easy to use the Lyre sans perform ranks).
Now, how does this compare to a Monk?  Well, for the most part it's not equipment dependent (it's all mundane except for the +2 Cha item which is extremely basic... note that if the Desmoderu don't exist, he could train a Dire Bat for the same purpose).  While he could use UMD, he doesn't depend on it.  His point buy is acceptable for any game.  He's FAR more mobile than a normal Monk, being both faster and better able to traverse vertically.  He's viciously dangerous (DC 20 or 3d6 con damage HURTS) and is a threat both up close and at range (even firing single shots with the crossbow, that poison is nasty, while up close he can do IF damage effectively).  He's a great scout with his solid stealth abilities (in the future he should take Lifesight).  Basically, he does everything a Monk would do, but instead of trying to imitate a Monk, he does it via his own class using his advantage... skills.  Poison is generated with help from his Craft Poison ranks.  Melee damage is augmented by his Iaijutsu focus ranks.  Handle animal helps him with the bat, and Intimidate lets him cower people.  Diplomacy gives him the ability to handle social settings.  This is an optimized Expert, not a wanna be Expert like the Monks you've been making.  And sure, if you gave him stuff to use UMD on, he'd rock out with that too.

If I'm making a Monk, I'm not messing about with UMD and other stuff that's not the Monk's specialty.  I'm going to look at the Monk to see what good abilities they have... which is mostly Flurry and that Stunning Fist bonus feat.  So that's what I'm going to optimize around.  That's why I tend to run away from Monk after 6 levels into Shou Disciple, so I can finally use Reach Weapons and such.

JaronK

OK, first my comment on your build and comparison to monk, and then a level 6 monk build of mine.

Comment on your expert build

• The iajutsu damage is currently going to be +4d6 (at a likely +14 skill bonus as far as I can see) for one attack per encounter. Deduct from that the -2 of damage and you get on the first round (even if it works) in melee +12 damage. So even, if iajutsu works, what is that going to matter in combat vs CR 6 creatures?

Monk level 6 build UMDing a wand of enlarge, or mighty wallop would increase the damage to 6d6 (. Comments welcome in that thread.

[Bauglir]

It got updated in Dragon magazine, which many are loathe to admit as a valid source because it makes Monks pretty awesome (Weapon Supremacy at level 1, for starters, although there are probably better things to do with Fighter feats you don't have to meet prereqs for). As for Jaron's build, that's a fine Expert opponent, but given how much of its power derives from sources other than being an Expert, I'd have to say that if this is the build he puts forth, he needs to drop the "Class X Fallacy" stuff.

My proposed counter of a Monk build would be identical, but without the ranks in Intimidate or any of the other skills except Handle Animal, and it would have Skill Prodigy instead of Imperious Command. This does require Int 16 to get Handle Animal as a class skill, but investment there will be so minimal that you don't really need it to be a class skill (of the other skills JaronK uses and which I'm going to continue using, only UMD and Iaijutsu Focus don't appear on the Monk skill list). So it's got one fewer trick (but with an appropriate stock of wands can probably handle the odd situation where its opponent is vulnerable to fear effects but not to poison or precision damage; this means it's got a slightly higher gold upkeep). Its major difference is that it has better saves and has Evasion (which, oddly, works just fine for a monk in Light armor). Other'n that, it's got the disease immunity and a few bonus feats that might occasionally come up (Stunning Fist, for instance, is a free occasional debuff but the DC will be laughably low), but these are practically irrelevant. Its base damage is higher than the Gnome Quickrazor, because it's just drawing and sheathing them to trigger Iaijutsu Focus while it punches things. If you insist that that doesn't work, it'll just drop EWP Quickrazors and put its hands in its pockets every round. Maybe take Lifesight instead, or something, but I don't know its prereqs and don't care enough to look.

I'd say that the above is a fair trade, and that took me about 10 minutes to put together (mostly ensuring everything is legal). Since I'm just launching of JaronK's ideas, that's to be expected, but the point is that I probably could come up with something that synergizes more effectively if I were willing to invest more time.

Again, if you want to argue that the Monk is worse because its class features encourage using other stats, the Expert automatically loses. It has no class features.

[BlackAngelika]

Monk sucks because he's a class that is good thanks to it's own abilities.
He got a good weapon - Unarmed Strike - which can't be taken from him and has improving damage dice.
He got nice saves (plus Still Mind).
He got evasion/improved evasion.
He got Wis to AC, so not dependant on armor.
He got self healing.
He got immunity to dease and poison.
Etc.
The MAD is a pain but overall a monk isn't very dependant on gear.
BUT D&D IS VERY GEAR CENTERED. Most of the things that make monks cool are easely emulated by magic items and items are better. A monk fares poor in comparison to other classes that are fully geared. IMO he is so weak because the designers thought "Well, if the players would somehow lose their equipment the monk would shine"... The thing is - PCs without gear is very rare in most games.
So... that's why monks suck IMO. Other classes have something to build on and improve with items. Monks don't because if you try to focus on one thing (like melee for example) monk won't be able to keep up with other classes or monster. And going for versatility is even worse.

[veekie]

He got Wis to AC, so not dependant on armor.

It would....if the AC bonus was comparable to even LIGHT armor. Monks have lower ACs than even level 1 wizards because of that, at least the Wizard has Mage Armor(+4), compared to the Monk's AC bonus(+2? its a secondary stat unless you have Intuitive Strike, which is another feat set on fire).

[retkin]

I have never read a single dragon magazine, to me its basically just people getting money to homebrew. Anyways ive been lurking here for a long time, and i have loved monks since playing final fantasy tactics, i know they are weak in dnd, but to try to say they suck cause you can use some cheese to make the expert playable is laughable. A monk could use the same cheese but then flurry of blows that poison on shurikens, throwing out way more damage then the expert could even hope to.

The only reason his ac is so low is because of the ridiculous 22 pt buy, which i doubt any dm would inflict upon their players.

[BlackAngelika]

@ veekie
I said items are better, didn't I? Monks AC Bonus is still better then nothing, IMO.

@ retkin
Really? I think of Dragon & Dungeon magazines as help for the non-caster classes. Lots of material from them helps big time.

I think 22 pb is unfair for the monk. If you take away experts toys then it would be more fair. Class features against class features. nothing that you can buy (that means crafting also, you have still pay for materials). Who's better now?

[veekie]

^^
Check the costs of poisons. Most poisoner builds need Minor Creation to get a steady, affordable supply at lower levels, at higher levels, Fort is the most common high save, not to mention the types that are outright immune(demons, Con-less creatures, couple of plants and ooze types). AND your monk risks poisoning himself every single time until he gains immunity.

Consider a common 32 pt buy array for a monk:
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 8
AC +2 dex, +3 wis
Thats still 1 less AC than the wizard(+2 dex, +4 armor), who isn't supposed to be even anywhere near the front lines. Using Intuitive Strike or Weapon Finesse to switch it to Wis or Dex gives you another point, except there goes one of your feats. AND you have no Int to speak of to get those skills mentioned above. If you invested in skills, your other ability scores have to suffer, just to afford the skill points, putting you further back.
Make that a rogue instead and you'd see the same, except the rogue has better burst damage potential, and rarely needs to stay there to be full attacked.
Compare the weapon as well, you get a...2d10 weapon that cannot be disarmed.
By level 20.
Anyone with martial weapon proficiency can get a 2d6 greatsword, dealing only on average 2 damage less. At level 1. Or throw on a polearm for reach, high crit etc. Heck, at level 1 you could just give the wizard a crossbow and he'd outdamage the monk.

EDIT:
Honestly the AC bonus is worse than nothing, because it gives new players the impression that the monk has good defenses. A low level monk could be a better fighter by being an elf, taking an armor proficiency feat and then using a longbow with light armor.

[retkin]

I am pretty sure everyone has pretty low ac at level 1, and whats a wizard wasting a precious spell at that level buffing his ac? Talk about useless. You can get weapon finesse through acfs if you don't want to focus on stunning fist.

Your limited to +4ac from armor at level 1 from wealth charts, you can add 1 or 2 with a shield and 1-3 more with dex if you werent planning on wearing full plate later on, so thats anywhere from 15-17 ac, you could get 20 with scalemale and a tower shield with a 14 in dex. so the monks 15ac is pretty normal.

[BlackAngelika]

@ veekie
What are you arguing about? O.o If you are arguing that a monk is weaker then an equiped fighter or rogue... then I don't know who you're arguing with, because it's clearly not me. I already said that monk sucks. And I said that monk is quite good if PCs are in a situation where they don't have their equipment (very rare, I know, that's why monks suck). Your nswer is "Rogue with equipment has better AC/attack". Really?

[Bauglir]

To be fair, a level 1 wizard would be a moron to blow one of the few opportunities he has to be effective on giving himself +4 ac for an hour. Now, your average NPC Warrior, on the other hand... they can't afford Full Plate, sure, but they don't have to to beat the monk. Light armor and a shield will do.

[BlackAngelika]

That Mage Armor could be cast on the monk instead. I'm just sayin'.

[veekie]

Yes it could, but the monk being a better fighter by throwing away all his class features for a decent ranged weapon and light armor tells you a lot.