Since it's not relevant to either class (both can take it just as easily) we ignore Nymph's Kiss entirely for this comparison. This is how we avoid Class X Fallacies. Also, being Exalted has serious problems and is not available in most games, I've found.
Note that you've just mixed settings. Carmendine Monk requires Forgotten Realms, while Skill Protege requires that funny K one. Taking both is less likely to be available... I find that while one setting is reasonable, taking from multiple is more likely to make DMs balk. Also, you've just burned four feats solely to try and play catch up with the Expert. That right there indicates you're making a rather piss poor Monk. And while the Monk does get three bonus feats (level 1, 2, and 6), that's one of their few actually good class features... throwing away that advantage just to play catch up is a poor choice. Not to mention completely free choice feats (such as level gained feats) are more valuable than locked in choice feats (such as the Monk ones), except of course where you can get those feats without prerequisites... if you wanted said feats anyway. By Comparison, an Expert could just get a Monk's Belt and be most of the way there (though I can't imagine why he'd want to, he's an Expert, not a Monk).
It depends on how easy it is to get that ability. Nobody cares that CA Ninjas get Disguise Self at level 10, because Hats of Disguise are cheap as dirt. However, you just spent 4 of your 7 total free feats trying to catch up with the Expert... that's a HUGE expense.
Exactly. A Ring of Feather Falling is trivially cheap (it's less than half the WBL of a level 4 character, even... by level 8 or so you could buy three of them just to practice juggling), so the fact that you get a worse version of that as a class feature is pretty irrelevant. Compare that to spending 4 of your 7 free feats (8 if you're human)... ouch.
What does you breathing have to do with this? Completely wrong picture.
Exactly. Both of us breathe just fine, so breathing has nothing to do with anything. If both do it, it's irrelevant.
Sure. If there was a feat that gave Cha to AC and was available to all, it would still be better on a Sorcerer than on a Fighter. Why? Because Sorcerers already use Charisma. It would not be a Class X Fallacy to say that Sorcerers are better than Fighters in part because they could use that feat (well, it would be a silly argument, but not a CXF). But in this case, you've been saying that Monks are better than Experts because of UMD (in part). Except that Monks do not have Cha synergy, and UMD is cross class for them... while it's in class for Experts. Monks are not any better at using UMD than anyone else (in fact, they're worse than most) so using UMD in a discussion of the comparative abilities of the two classes is a fallacy... if you count it in favor of the Monk.
It does not matter whether something is only written in the class description, or something that is useful to the class is written elsewhere (like a particular item that benefits in particular that class), it still can make that class stronger as a whole, and in a different way than the same game effect would for other classes.
In this case, no. Monks are worse at UMD than Experts. They're also worse than all classes with any Cha synergy, as well as all classes that actually get UMD as a class skill. Yes, Monks would really like to have Divine Power on them... but so would Rogues, who would also draw even more benefit from PAO into a Hydra. EVERY class can be made powerful with spells.
Rogues just wouldn't use Enlarge, obviously. They prefer things like Knock, Lesser Vigor, and various things that let them do their job better. One way or another, they'd better with UMD by a country mile.
In general, the (few) expert class abilities can be emulated easily, the (many) monk class abilities cannot be emulated easily. Advantage monk.
Ah, and here's where you're so wrong... NOBODY WANTS TO EMULATE A MONK. You WANT to emulate an Expert because darn it UMD and Diplomacy and Iaijutsu Focus and Move Silently and Hide and so on and so forth are actually useful. Who the hell wants unarmed strike, feather fall, and faster ground based run speed? Heck, a single flying mount does better than tons of Monk abilities. If I'm making a good Expert, I'm not thinking "man, if only I had unarmed strikes right now." I'm thinking "how can I use my skills to be better at what I do?" Perhaps I make a nice archer, with high Knowledge skills + Knowledge Devotion. Perhaps I make an assassin, using that minor talent feat to get Psionic Minor Creation and combining that with Move Silently, Hide, and Iaijutsu Focus, along with Master of Poisons (with a few Craft ranks), and throw in Imperious Command + Intimidate, then round it out with some nice social skills... and don't forget the UMD. Now I can sneak up on people and scare them into cowering or kill them, plus make everyone my friend. That's how I play an Expert, using his own abilities, not just trying to emulate Monk abilities that nobody cares about (seriously, at some point either that archer or assassin's going to want to be able to fly... so he can use Handle Animal and Ride and have a flying mount. Now why would he care about Safe Fall and land movement speed?).
When the only thing the expert class offers is some more skill points and the ability choose 10 class skills (not 21, as Saxony mistakenly believes), my above monk with INT 18 has six class skills to choose from, on top of his already 18 (!!) class skills (which in turn can get boosted even higher by ACFs or a ToB maneuver feat). This means the monk has, with just his bonus feat advantage, more than twice more class skills, plus chosen/already has the same most powerful skills the expert has.
Your Monk was trying to be an Expert. That means the Expert wins outright. The Expert wouldn't dream of trying to be a Monk... why would he want to do that?
Sure. Necropolitan Whispergnome Expert 6 with Charisma 14, Int 14, Dex 16, Con -, Wisdom 8, Str 6 (22 Point Buy). Skills: Maxed Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidate, UMD, Diplomacy, Move Silently, Hide, and Craft Poison, with a few ranks as needed in Handle Animal, Bluff, and Sense Motive. Feats: EWP: Gnomish Quickrazor, that feat that lets you use a first level psionic ability once in a while (take it for Psionic Minor Creation), Imperious Command. If Necropolitan isn't available, swap Imperious Command for Master of Poisons and take the point buy up a little to get a reasonable con score... you'll take Imperious Command later. Fly around on a Magebreed Warbeast Desmoderu Hunting Bat (this is a standard domesticated animal in the underdark, see MMII, and costs a pretty small amount of money) using poisonous attacks (Black Lotus Poison from Psionic Minor Creation) to kill enemies. Occasionally dismount and sneak up to kill enemies. At other times force them to cower via Imperious Command and let your bat trip and disable them before you go in for the kill. The Never Outnumbered skill trick is a good plan too. Other gear includes some basic armor, a crossbow with gnomish crossbow sight for sniping, a nice masterwork saddle, a few sets of marbles, and a bunch of skill boosting masterwork tools... and of course a Feycraft Quickrazor, so he can use Dex to hit with that without needing Weapon Finesse.
Note that you'll need an item of +2 Cha by level 6 to qualify for Imperious Command. Later on I'll probably invest in a Lyre of Building so that I can craft stuff extremely fast (with a decent Charisma it's quite easy to use the Lyre sans perform ranks).
Now, how does this compare to a Monk? Well, for the most part it's not equipment dependent (it's all mundane except for the +2 Cha item which is extremely basic... note that if the Desmoderu don't exist, he could train a Dire Bat for the same purpose). While he could use UMD, he doesn't depend on it. His point buy is acceptable for any game. He's FAR more mobile than a normal Monk, being both faster and better able to traverse vertically. He's viciously dangerous (DC 20 or 3d6 con damage HURTS) and is a threat both up close and at range (even firing single shots with the crossbow, that poison is nasty, while up close he can do IF damage effectively). He's a great scout with his solid stealth abilities (in the future he should take Lifesight). Basically, he does everything a Monk would do, but instead of trying to imitate a Monk, he does it via his own class using his advantage... skills. Poison is generated with help from his Craft Poison ranks. Melee damage is augmented by his Iaijutsu focus ranks. Handle animal helps him with the bat, and Intimidate lets him cower people. Diplomacy gives him the ability to handle social settings. This is an optimized Expert, not a wanna be Expert like the Monks you've been making. And sure, if you gave him stuff to use UMD on, he'd rock out with that too.
If I'm making a Monk, I'm not messing about with UMD and other stuff that's not the Monk's specialty. I'm going to look at the Monk to see what good abilities they have... which is mostly Flurry and that Stunning Fist bonus feat. So that's what I'm going to optimize around. That's why I tend to run away from Monk after 6 levels into Shou Disciple, so I can finally use Reach Weapons and such.
JaronK
