Expert vs Monk Challenge!

[Saxony]

Or you could take one or two levels in the ghost savage progression.  Odds are he'll be completely unable to handle an incorporeal threat - you don't even need buyoff.

Then it's not showing Expert is good. It's showing Ghost savage progression is good. Therefore inappropriate.

Edit: Though it does show Monks suck ass. But we want to show Experts are better than Monks and that Monks suck ass.

[Havok4]

Get the lucid dreaming skill and kill the monk before the fight starts. That would really illustrate why the expert rocks. When he calls no fair on that trick offer to not do that to him, then go to the regular fight and use a psionic item of ego whip to reduce the monks one dump stat, charisma, to nothing and call it a day.

[Sobolev]

While the original point was not necessarily that I would fight his monk, so much that I would demonstrate that Experts are awesome compared to Monks (This challenge actually makes me want to play an expert) I think a lot of this will carry over just fine.

I somehow forgot about Lucid Dreaming, even though the Ask a Simple Question thread has it in the name right now.  Silly me.  That will be included.

[Saxony]

Question: Who gets Lucid Dreaming as a class skill other than Experts and Factotums?

[snakeman830]

Question: Who gets Lucid Dreaming as a class skill other than Experts and Factotums?

Exemplars

[skydragonknight]

I was going to suggest "animal cohort", but the Handle Animal suggestion for Roc sounds better.

The other thing you'll want is Imperious Command to cower-lock him while the Roc eats him.

[Sobolev]

You'll want Mercantile Background for sure. Your character is going to rely heavily on magic items and UMD.

What does it do/Where do I find it?

[carnivore]

Get the lucid dreaming skill and kill the monk before the fight starts. That would really illustrate why the expert rocks. When he calls no fair on that trick offer to not do that to him, then go to the regular fight and use a psionic item of ego whip to reduce the monks one dump stat, charisma, to nothing and call it a day.

Lucid Dreaming is not that great to try to use vs a Monk ... for an Expert that is .... and it wont Kill him anyway, you would have to beat him in a Grapple first

Lucid Dreaming

[carnivore]

You'll want Mercantile Background for sure. Your character is going to rely heavily on magic items and UMD.

What does it do/Where do I find it?

Mercantile Background

[Saxony]

Question: Who gets Lucid Dreaming as a class skill other than Experts and Factotums?

Exemplars

So if an Expert used Lucid Dreaming to beat a Monk, they would be using their specific advantage (choosing their class skills).

Awesome.

[carnivore]

i was wondering how this would work if both opponents were required to take the same Feats that they get @1,3,6,9,12,15,18 ... but could spend thier Bonus feats from Race,Flaws,Class abilities on whatever they wanted ..... this would level the playing field since both would be subjected to the same circumstances and then thier class abilities would be what sets them apart

what do you think?

 

[carnivore]

i dont see how anyone can use Lucid Dreaming to beat anyone .... can someone enlighten me?

 

[archangel.arcanis]

i was wondering how this would work if both opponents were required to take the same Feats that they get @1,3,6,9,12,15,18 ... but could spend thier Bonus feats from Race,Flaws,Class abilities on whatever they wanted ..... this would level the playing field since both would be subjected to the same circumstances and then thier class abilities would be what sets them apart

what do you think?

 

I think that it would actually be better to take away the feats entirely since almost every feat would favor one or the other in some way. But for a realistic test let them pick their own feats since the game kinda expects you to pick feats and that you will hopefully pick something useful to your character.

[carnivore]

what i was thinking ... just supply them with a Generic Feat set .... exa:

1st lvl: Education
3rd lvl: Knowledge Devotion
6th lvl: Imp Initiative
9th lvl: Dodge
12th lvl: Mobility
15th lvl: Combat Expertise
18th lvl: Elusive target

this is intentionally sub-par .... then it will depend on the choices that they make with thier class abilities to determine the True Strength of thier builds

 

[Sobolev]

what i was thinking ... just supply them with a Generic Feat set .... exa:

1st lvl: Education
3rd lvl: Knowledge Devotion
6th lvl: Imp Initiative
9th lvl: Dodge
12th lvl: Mobility
15th lvl: Combat Expertise
18th lvl: Elusive target

this is intentionally sub-par .... then it will depend on the choices that they make with thier class abilities to determine the True Strength of thier builds

 

This would greatly increase the importance of bonus feats, and grossly inflate their importance past what they are worth in a normal game.  Among other things.

Edit: To beat a monk in a grapple I can just cast the Wu Jen spell that increases your size or something.  I'm sure I can beat him in a grapple somehow.  Anyone have any thoughts?

Also, how do I get my skill check for Handle Animal to 23 or whatever?  At 10 I have 13 Ranks...Some from Cha, maybe 5, item of +5, I guess that will work.

Current Ideas:
Human Expert 10
32 Point Buy

Class Skills:
Lucid Dreaming
Iaijutsu Focus
Use Magic Device
Use Psionic Device
Handle Animal
Intimidate
Diplomacy

Some other stuff.

Feats:
Able Learner (1st)
Mercantile Background (Human)
Improved Initiative (3rd)
Imperious Command (5th)
Knowledge Devotion? (7th)
Something (10th)
Flaws maybe?

Max UMD, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Lucid Dreaming, Iaijutsu Focus, Something?

Skill Tricks? Collector of Stories?

Items:
Wand of Enervation
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Wand of Lore of the Gods
Item of Ego Whip
Item of Psychic Reformation?
Shadow Cloak
Roc Egg?
That funky sword that does more damage if you draw it that round.

Just kicking this around, I think this character could be super cool.  It also clearly seems better than Monk!  However, my friend is hard to convince, so I'm going to finish the whole build and present it first.  More ideas?  I'll post like a sheet at some point.

[Saxony]

i dont see how anyone can use Lucid Dreaming to beat anyone .... can someone enlighten me?

 

Step 1: Go to sleep when Monk is asleep. Realize you are dreaming. DC 5 Lucid Dreaming check.
Step 2: Move into Monk's dreamscape. DC 15 Lucid Dreaming check.
Step 3a: Grapple opponent. You do not have to pin your opponent. You only have to dodge Monk's Attack of Opportunity, land the touch attack, and beat their grapple check.
Step 3b: Before you can sustain a grapple with the Monk, the Monk kills you in the dreamscape. You wake up "immediately, with a hammering heart". Repeat Steps 1-3 until successful. Continue to Step 4.
Step 4: Make DC 25 Lucid Dreaming Check to pull you and foe into Dreamheart.
Step 4b: Before you can pull you and foe to Dreamheart, Monk makes a DC 10 Wisdom check to wake up.
Step 5: You and foe take 25 damage.
Step 6: Make a DC 20 Lucid Dreaming check to leave Dreamheart.
Step 7: Foe keeps taking 25 damage every round unless they make a DC 18 Wisdom check and wake up.
Step 8: Foe does not wake up and foe dies in the Dreamheart, dying in the real world (dying in a normal dreamscape doesn't do this). Foe cannot be brought back to life via "Resurrection" or "Raise Dead" spells.
Step 8b: Foe does wake up with successful DC 18 Wisdom check. Repeat Steps 1-8 until successful.

The only thing a Monk can do about this is see it coming and prepare somehow (Hint: The Monk we're actually fighting won't) or make a DC 18 Wisdom check. Let's be nice and assume the level 10 multiple attribute dependent Monk has 16 Wisdom and 16 Constitution. They have [9(4.5+2)+10]=68-69 hit points. This means they die in two rounds after being taken to the Dreamheart. They have a 1/4 chance of making a DC 18 Wisdom check with a +3 modifier. They have a 56% chance of failing twice in a row and thus dying. That's if they didn't wake up in the initial fight. I doubt a Monk would try to wake up from a dream of grappling someone in the first assassination attempt. Since one can change their outward appearance and a Monk can never realize they are dreaming (because that requires being trained in Lucid Dreaming), I don't think a Monk would try to wake up if an Expert approached them in a dream. They would only try waking up once said Expert tried to grapple them. I'll give 2 rounds for an Expert to establish a grapple against a Monk, meaning the Monk get's two chances to make a DC 10 Wisdom check to wake up in their regular dreamscape. They have a 65% chance to beat it, meaning a 12.2% chance to fail both times. Multiply both probabilities together (not waking up in initial grappling attempts, not waking up in Dreamheart) and we get a 6.8% chance of working.

Summary:
A kill method with a success rate of 56% on the first try and a 6.8% success rate on every subsequent try.

The only point of contention is Step 2. How in the hell does one travel to the specific foe's dreamscape?

[ninjarabbit]

I'm thinking intimidate + imperious command + fearsome armor + some boosters like 5 ranks in bluff and masterwork item of intimidate + nymph's kiss= the monk doing what he does best: running away. Even with the monk's good wis you should be able to pull it off most of the time.

[Sobolev]

Yeah, and the thing about the Dreaming thing is that it continues to demonstrate how much more useful Experts are than Monks in non-combat.  If the mission is "Go kill this evil count" I can do it way easier than he can.

[betrayor]

I suppose a combination of divination spells and the dream travel spell could do it....

[Havok4]

The best part of the lucid dreaming assassination attempt is that the monk can do almost nothing against it and you experience little real risk. He is not likely to even have the knowledge skills needed to realize what is going on. And because you do not lose consumables in a dream just get scrolls of giant size and polymorph to be able to easily grapple the monk, along with some scrolls of energy resistance so you are not hurt in the dreamheart. You buff up before going to the monks dreamscape and then can pretty assuradly beat him in a grapple and can make sure he dies in the dream heart.

The only point of contention is Step 2. How in the hell does one travel to the specific foe's dreamscape?

The ability to travel from one dreamscape to another is likely how you do it. Get a scroll of find the path and you should be able to find his dreamscape just fine.