Author Topic: Expert vs Monk Challenge!  (Read 151479 times)

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Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #180 on: May 29, 2011, 06:21:37 PM »
Psst. I'm trying to troll an obvious troll here. Get with the program.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Midnight_v

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #181 on: May 29, 2011, 07:07:55 PM »
Psst. I'm trying to troll an obvious troll here. Get with the program.
  :D I'm with it...
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Sir Giacomo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #182 on: May 29, 2011, 07:51:56 PM »
Ok, so we are running that Same Game test, this is from: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test
[spoiler]A Level 10 Same Game Test
    * A hallway filled with magical runes.
    * A Fire Giant.
    * A Young Blue Dragon.
    * A Bebilith.
    * A Vrock.
    * A tag team of Mind Flayers.
    * An Evil Necromancer.
    * 6 Trolls.
    * 12 Shadows. [/spoiler]
Then we need to discuss which sources we allow. Lets assume we allow just about everything.
And then we just need to fill in some details as to how Cpt. Monk and Mr. Expert handle each encounter. With a given build.

I'd love to see an expert doing this with just the core rules. :)

- Giacomo

Midnight_v

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #183 on: May 29, 2011, 08:06:05 PM »
... which is an irrelavant want.
As we're not discussing the "core rules".
Quote
Okay, I've been challenged by a friend, to defend tiers, so I have to make an Expert at least as good as a monk that I guess he's making.

Rules are level 10, character has to be mostly if not all that class.

Expert Class Skills (Just me guessing)
Use Magic Device
Use Psionic Device (Psychic Reformation)?
Diplomacy
Iaijutsu
Spot
Bluff?
Knowledges?  Local, Arcana, Planes, Dungeoneering?

Skill Tricks:
Collector of Stories

Feats:
Able Learner?
Knowledge Devotion?

Equipment:
Items of UMD, UPD and Diplomacy +5 or whatever,  Masterwork of the same, Wand of Lore of the Gods, Wand of Cure Light,

Personally, this already seems better than a monk to me, but he doesn't agree. Is he just insane?  What else shall I do?  Thanks! 

From the gate our discussion already has all those books involved so its a moot point, all of us are past that.
Though I have to admit I'm interested to see what you'd do with a core only monk...  I think item familiar and all those variant monks came from the UA... not the core 3. Still thats neither here nor there...
The only thing I'd kick out would things from dragon, kalamar, and dragonlance... I'm never sure what the fuck is going on with those books really so maybe I'M biased on that front.
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X-Codes

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #184 on: May 29, 2011, 08:12:44 PM »
No, by all means.  Do it with core rules.  Monk is even more gimped with just core rulebooks.  Afterall, he might get all those extra feats over the expert, but in the core environment... who fucking cares!?.

Midnight_v

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #185 on: May 29, 2011, 08:15:43 PM »
No, by all means.  Do it with core rules.  Monk is even more gimped with just core rulebooks.  Afterall, he might get all those extra feats over the expert, but in the core environment... who fucking cares!?.
:p Fair Enough.
The only thing the expert really loses is Iujitsu which melee isn't likely what we're doing anyway.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #186 on: May 29, 2011, 08:19:46 PM »
Geez, you people need a better hobby than trolling monk hate.

Like, srsly.
May I suggest watching Mortal Kombat Legacy?  :D
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #187 on: May 29, 2011, 08:34:14 PM »
What.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

skydragonknight

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2011, 08:47:17 PM »
Expert 1/Monk 19 with Able Learner is better than both. NOW what's the dip class.  :lmao
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #189 on: May 29, 2011, 08:53:02 PM »
Monk6/Expert 14 is better than that, isn't it?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Mixster

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #190 on: May 29, 2011, 08:59:53 PM »
Ok, so we are running that Same Game test, this is from: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test
[spoiler]A Level 10 Same Game Test
    * A hallway filled with magical runes.
    * A Fire Giant.
    * A Young Blue Dragon.
    * A Bebilith.
    * A Vrock.
    * A tag team of Mind Flayers.
    * An Evil Necromancer.
    * 6 Trolls.
    * 12 Shadows. [/spoiler]
Then we need to discuss which sources we allow. Lets assume we allow just about everything.
And then we just need to fill in some details as to how Cpt. Monk and Mr. Expert handle each encounter. With a given build.

I'd love to see an expert doing this with just the core rules. :)

- Giacomo

Challenge accepted.
We need to set some standards for what is allowed? Are we using standard WBL? Only tricks that would fly in a game? Will you build a Monk who can handle those tasks relatively well?

Remember that it is just who can take the most of the tasks who wins, only Tier 1 and 2 classes would be able to take all of them easily I'd assume. Monks and their Ilk are supposed to take less than 50%. I'm guessing Monks would have problems with 6 trolls.

EDIT: What are we using for stats? 25 Point buy or elite array?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 09:02:59 PM by Mixster »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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Kajhera

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #191 on: May 29, 2011, 09:43:50 PM »
I would recommend standard WBL, refrain from nonsensical interpretations of the rules (death not affecting one for example), 25pt buy, and some way to control your consumable expenditure - at least try and break even with the expected treasure of the challenges, or something.

Points will be deducted for death, getting animated after death, enslavement, getting eaten after death, coming out from a challenge with less valuable equipment than what you went in with, selling your soul to a fiend, and becoming a wight, even if you're more effective afterward.

Mixster

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #192 on: May 29, 2011, 10:00:15 PM »
I would recommend standard WBL, refrain from nonsensical interpretations of the rules (death not affecting one for example), 25pt buy, and some way to control your consumable expenditure - at least try and break even with the expected treasure of the challenges, or something.

Points will be deducted for death, getting animated after death, enslavement, getting eaten after death, coming out from a challenge with less valuable equipment than what you went in with, selling your soul to a fiend, and becoming a wight, even if you're more effective afterward.

How about Diplomacy and Handle Animal?
Partially charged wands are dirt cheap it's pretty easy breaking even with those,
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

Midnight_v

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #193 on: May 29, 2011, 10:35:28 PM »
We should get a judge, or at least someone to run the events.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Solo

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #194 on: May 29, 2011, 10:50:09 PM »
Midnight I nominate you.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #195 on: May 29, 2011, 10:50:40 PM »
Midnight I nominate you.
He's not a Pokemon, you know.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #196 on: May 29, 2011, 10:55:21 PM »
How about Diplomacy and Handle Animal?
Partially charged wands are dirt cheap it's pretty easy breaking even with those,
Way to ignore the thread. I realize you're just joining us but srsly?

I can't find a sign big enough, but dammit I'm going to try.
Let's start talking about who's Diplo check worked on Vecna now right? Maybe some Handle Animal for a bloat(?) of Hippogriff or something while we're at at. Srsly, DC 20ish is easy and we're talking about loading up on spells and followers. How about level 6 vs the level 10 test? Unseelie Fey StP Erudite Cohort makes my point any day. omg, it just dawned on me. Like the Experts who, like have ZERO abilities are, like superior to everything. His cohort is a freaking tier zero character. Mr big and bad takes order from my lv3 spell casting from minimal CL wands using expert. Yippee Ki Yay Monkerfunker.

We just had a page or two discussion about being a POS dependent on items to prove your useful, this included phoning a friend. Everyone but you seems to argee when it comes to measuring classes, you need to measure the classes (not who buys better items). Don't back track us by asking if you can dig in the discount bin of buying stuff never mentioned >.<
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Mixster

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #197 on: May 29, 2011, 11:01:57 PM »
How about Diplomacy and Handle Animal?
Partially charged wands are dirt cheap it's pretty easy breaking even with those,
Way to ignore the thread. I realize you're just joining us but srsly?

I can't find a sign big enough, but dammit I'm going to try.
Let's start talking about who's Diplo check worked on Vecna now right? Maybe some Handle Animal for a bloat(?) of Hippogriff or something while we're at at. Srsly, DC 20ish is easy and we're talking about loading up on spells and followers. How about level 6 vs the level 10 test? Unseelie Fey StP Erudite Cohort makes my point any day. omg, it just dawned on me. Like the Experts who, like have ZERO abilities are, like superior to everything. His cohort is a freaking tier zero character. Mr big and bad takes order from my lv3 spell casting from minimal CL wands using expert. Yippee Ki Yay Monkerfunker.

We just had a page or two discussion about being a POS dependent on items to prove your useful, this included phoning a friend. Everyone but you seems to argee when it comes to measuring classes, you need to measure the classes (not who buys better items). Don't back track us by asking if you can dig in the discount bin of buying stuff never mentioned >.<


I was being sarcastic.  :lmao I mostly asked because I would like to know the limits, so I don't create an expert who doesn't rely on those tricks, and then gets ridiculed because cpt. Monk did.

So we should probably get a list of things that aren't allowed, leadership should probably be on it, and then we should decide whether we go core or we add all manner of extra stuff. If Dragon Mag is allowed, the monk is Tier 4 anyway, and the whole discussion is moot.

However, if the expert can't use skills, and can't use items, I'm pretty sure the monk will handle anything better. But that's pretty silly because all the expert does is use skills.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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skydragonknight

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #198 on: May 30, 2011, 12:19:05 AM »
Monk6/Expert 14 is better than that, isn't it?

Hmm. +1 hit point per level and better fort/ref save progression vs. +2 skill points/level. Non-humans will take Expert, since they don't have Able Learner. Humans get Able Learner and +1 skill point/level, so they'll just go Monk if only for the hit points and base fort saves that will help keep them alive.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #199 on: May 30, 2011, 12:51:29 AM »
Monk6/Expert 14 is better than that, isn't it?

Hmm. +1 hit point per level and better fort/ref save progression vs. +2 skill points/level. Non-humans will take Expert, since they don't have Able Learner. Humans get Able Learner and +1 skill point/level, so they'll just go Monk if only for the hit points and base fort saves that will help keep them alive.
The monk's ability to not lose 6 con will help keep him alive too. ;)
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]