Author Topic: Expert vs Monk Challenge!  (Read 151475 times)

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Midnight_v

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #140 on: May 28, 2011, 04:25:48 PM »
Quote
"if you buy the right stuff you win"
While there was a pretty bullshit post about both parties using the same feats...
maybe just maybe we can come up with a paradigm where the above ceases to be true.

Maybe one unified gear list for comparison would be reasonable.
I find that Umd is the biggest offender of this (umd becoming more important than anything else the class does.) but at least if both combatants were stuck usingthe "base gear set" we'd have a better idea of what class could do what? in relation to each other.
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AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #141 on: May 28, 2011, 04:37:00 PM »
Or no gear at all, excluding simple weapons and armor, because it's about the CLASSES abilities and not items.
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #142 on: May 28, 2011, 04:46:36 PM »
Or no gear at all, excluding simple weapons and armor, because it's about the CLASSES abilities and not items.
Nearly full agreement here, class features are what matters when compairing classes, not who is more intelligent with 760,000 gold.

However, some classes get respective items that directly coloerate(sp) with their class features. Example, a +5 Furious Berseker Fury Greatsword would improve it's effective numerical bonus by +2 and deal an additional +1d6 damage on top of the welder's rage ability being increased by one step (greater rage to mighty rage for example). This item is nothing more than a +5 greatsword to everyone else which means it is a Barbarian's sword, not a Rogue's. I believe it should be accounted for just as many others think Craft X feats should be worth something to a player (instead of being for NPCs, like the skill profession).
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #143 on: May 28, 2011, 04:55:45 PM »
Or no gear at all, excluding simple weapons and armor, because it's about the CLASSES abilities and not items.
I can't tell if you're being uhm... sarcastic or not. I imagine you are.
So no. . . I'm not describing a final destination style duel.
I actually would say its more about the combanation of feats/skills/class abilities. So while umd is a skill
making a so-called build that allows a wizard via $300,000 or so dollars worth of wands etc or crowns of antimagic... That is NOT
a commentary on anything that any class actually does. Thats a commentary on what the items can do.
So what I suggest is a situation in which people use... stat boosters/a pre-set selection of It material/ a given allowance for a +10 weapon made to your specifics or whatever.... but item familiars, Intelligent items, leadership feats...They honestly lend to a situation that muddles the reality of whats going on.

Alternatively, you could limit the books allowed, I'm not one of those assholes who are talking about "whats allowed in a game" or "conservative Dm'ing" or' "keeping pc's in check"(whatever that supposed to mean) I'm just suggesting we get on the same page about whats actually being discussed.
 
Edit:
Soro_lost  got his post in while I was typing. I think I mentioned that in my post, primary weapon or whatever. I don't think the crafting thing is good for comparison. I do think your post seems passive agressive about it, It'd be cool to just drop it.
 I do agree is buidling should NOT be about the money.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 05:01:34 PM by Midnight_v »
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AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #144 on: May 28, 2011, 05:32:04 PM »
Quote
I can't tell if you're being uhm... sarcastic or not. I imagine you are.
No, I'm not.
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #145 on: May 28, 2011, 07:06:30 PM »
I do think your post seems passive agressive about it.
Me passive aggressive? Let me correct that.

The morons that think buying items is relevant towards comparing class abilities are idiots, possible idiotic morons. You want to impress me with your Starmantle Cloak? Try casting the frigging spell your self, during combat. And it goes both ways too, Craft X item is stupid, it's like putting ranks in Profession, your DM isn't running a game anything close to WotC's official campings or published worlds if you even *think* you should take them. UMD as a class skill is worth one half point of build accreditation. How much is half a point? A Core only Fighter with 8 in strength that took Toughness seven times scores above 100 points. Also any ability or so called trick that is functional the same but worse than Diplomacy is crap. Example, a Planar Sheppard Cohort, it doesn't make you awesome. What is going on Planar Sheppard is awesome and your paying just for the privilege to carry his loot.

Better?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #146 on: May 28, 2011, 07:09:17 PM »
I do think your post seems passive agressive about it.
Me passive aggressive? Let me correct that.

The morons that think buying items is relevant towards comparing class abilities are idiots, possible idiotic morons. You want to impress me with your Starmantle Cloak? Try casting the frigging spell your self, during combat. And it goes both ways too, Craft X item is stupid, it's like putting ranks in Profession, your DM isn't running a game anything close to WotC's official campings or published worlds if you even *think* you should take them. UMD as a class skill is worth one half point of build accreditation. How much is half a point? A Core only Fighter with 8 in strength that took Toughness seven times scores above 100 points. Also any ability or so called trick that is functional the same but worse than Diplomacy is crap. Example, a Planar Sheppard Cohort, it doesn't make you awesome. What is going on Planar Sheppard is awesome and your paying just for the privilege to carry his loot.

Better?
If the writers thought that players shouldn't take crafting feats (despite actually putting them in the Player's Handbook of all things) then why do wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class feature?
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #147 on: May 28, 2011, 07:10:35 PM »
If the writers thought that players shouldn't take crafting feats (despite actually putting them in the Player's Handbook of all things) then why do wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class feature?
why does everyone have Profession as a class skill?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #148 on: May 28, 2011, 07:13:35 PM »
If the writers thought that players shouldn't take crafting feats (despite actually putting them in the Player's Handbook of all things) then why do wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class feature?
why does everyone have Profession as a class skill?
PrC prereqs?

Also, fighters don't.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #149 on: May 28, 2011, 07:37:54 PM »
If the writers thought that players shouldn't take crafting feats (despite actually putting them in the Player's Handbook of all things) then why do wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class feature?
why does everyone have Profession as a class skill?
PrC prereqs?

Also, fighters don't.
The bard can dance and sing, the cleric can do recite scripture, the wizard can be a magical librarian, the ranger can track animals for pelts, and the fighter can remain poor and stupid.

Srsly though. They gave Profession to PCs, they offer Crafting feats, they wrote a Craft skill. Its what made 3.5 a simulation fantasy game and the lack of such flavor concerns is what made 4th edition. It's filler flavor and as a concept its great, but who the hell plays D&D to be a professional NPC?

This is CharOp, the standard game ideal has NPCs and WBL's rules say screw you towards the entire concept of crafting to begin with. Take a better feat, put those skill ranks in Profession(kicks ass for a living), be great and don't settle for mediocrity. You are the friggin hero of the world, you get the princess in the castle, your chocobo can in fact fly, you made a cake and ate it, and if all else fails - you died and went to hell and your player rolled up a new character that's better than you.



Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #150 on: May 28, 2011, 07:41:27 PM »
It's not as simple as items vs no items. There's some truth to the "It's the items that are winning here, not the class" argument, but if you're going to insist on no items, Artificers are suddenly not Tier 1 anymore, or else they're leagues ahead of everybody because you allow them to have access to some items, which then proceed to do all the work. Anybody who says that items are irrelevant to class power is a moron. Anybody who insists that an Expert is a better class than the Monk because it gets UMD as a class skill isn't too bright, either.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #151 on: May 28, 2011, 07:44:18 PM »
If the writers thought that players shouldn't take crafting feats (despite actually putting them in the Player's Handbook of all things) then why do wizards get Scribe Scroll as a class feature?
why does everyone have Profession as a class skill?
PrC prereqs?

Also, fighters don't.
Skill Focus also is in Player's Handbook. And Acrobatic. That doesn't mean players must take them.

Quote
Anybody who says that items are irrelevant to class power is a moron.
Thank you.
Okay. We have Artificer, one class that relies on items. So what? He's better at crafting them, but that's not his only ability, if  I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:46:43 PM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

snakeman830

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #152 on: May 28, 2011, 07:51:42 PM »
Crafting (both mundane and magical) has been assumed to be a tool in the player's arsenal all the way through 3rd edition.  It has several uses (primarily in making your money go further, but also to get things that you aren't finding/able to buy for whatever reason).  It has always been assumed to be a part of the game.  To say that crafting is not a PC tool is ignoring quite a bit that says otherwise (namely bonus feats like Scribe Scroll, numerous crafting-related PrC's, Fabricate, and the Artificier).  The artificier can literally do nothing if there are no items at all except for buff random constructs.  Infusions, his only class feature that's not crafting-related, cannot target most creatures, only constructs and objects.

So no, you can't remove items from the equation.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:53:34 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #153 on: May 28, 2011, 07:58:43 PM »
To be fair, though, that only really applies when the class is the one making the item, rather than relying on items it has no way of producing.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bauglir

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #154 on: May 28, 2011, 08:01:31 PM »
He's also better at using them, which is where some of the real Tier 1ness comes in (hooray metamagic!). Or I could mention the Warlock, whose primary appearance in optimized builds is making use of his ability to craft any damn thing. Or I could mention all the builds that optimize crafting in order to obtain extra wealth, often making use of class features to do it. Or I could mention why Vow of Poverty is considered worse for some classes than others. If items had no bearing on class power, then it stands to reason that a lack of items would impact characters of all classes equally. Have you noticed how spellcasters are considered awesome in low-magic games where you can't find wealth, because they still get their magic toys?

All these are reasons why these classes are considered better than Dumbass McFighter. They aren't the only reason, which is why nobody argues about these classes being better than a Monk. But even the icing on this cake contributes to its world-shattering arcane might.

EDIT: 2 ninjas. Damn you!
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

X-Codes

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #155 on: May 28, 2011, 08:25:31 PM »
Anybody who insists that an Expert is a better class than the Monk because it gets UMD as a class skill isn't too bright, either.
In all fairness, it's not just UMD, it's also 2 of the 3 Diplomacy Synergy skills and Handle Animal.  What's more, when you talk about T5 classes you're really talking about characters who can really only optimize skill use to a reasonable level.

Sobolev

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #156 on: May 28, 2011, 08:44:35 PM »
This is going to be difficult to articulate.  I'm going to fail to articulate this in a way that other people understand.  People are going to continue to assert that the only way to compare two things is to make them have all the same stuff (feats, skills, items).  While there is some scientific validity to this, involving confounding variables, in that the addition of wealth, items, and skills that are more powerful than Monk class features do make this analysis more difficult.  However, I'm still going to explain why this logic is flawed, so that everyone can just tl;dr and carry on with this discussion to the umptienth power.  Good luck with that.

Let's start here then shall we?  How many D&D games that in no way involve items or money are there in comparison to the games that function in the way described in the player's handbook and dungeon master's guide where wealth and item acquisition are a major role?  Clearly then, not using items at all is completely nonsense because no games will be played under this constraint, so the ability of a naked monk with no skills and combat feats to beat up a naked expert with no skills and combat feats is hilariously irrelevant.  Similarly, if you note, the tier list states that the classes are hypothetically carried to the same level of optimization, that would include proper item choice and proper feat choice.  

Firstly, I would like to assert that Class skills are as much a class feature as anything else, in just the way that HD per level is a class feature.  We could all agree that a Fighter with everything the same, but with a lower HD (perhaps a D4) would be a weaker class.  But it would be a weaker class not through HD?  I think we could also agree that if Fighters had 20 skill points per level and had all classes as class skills they would be stronger than they are now.  Skill points are clearly then a function (one might say feature?) of a class.  The problem then, and I assure you it is only a problem with how people FEEL the game should work rather than how it DOES work is that some skills are simply more powerful than the features of a class.  That may offend someone's sensibilities but it continues to be the case.  Use Magic Device is a perpetual offender because it gives you the ability to cast spells, for money.  Most of us can agree that cast spells is one of the most powerful class features, particularly if it is full casting which Use Magic Device can do.  It again, can offend the way some people think the game should work, but that's just the truth of it.  Is that the only reason that Experts are better than Monks in the specific case?  No.  Monks have close to ZERO meaningful class features, just like Experts do and have worse skills.  

I want to give another example.  Imagine comparing these two classes, which have the class feature "Magic" and no other class features.  They have the same HD (d4) and 0 skill points per level.
Weaker Wizard
Magic:Weaker Wizard characters can cast spells exactly as a Wizard of their level casts spells.  Weaker Wizard characters do not get a feat at first level.

Wizard Take 2
Magic: Wizard Take 2 characters can cast spells exactly as a Wizard of their level can cast spells.


Can we then agree, that the second Wizard is more powerful?  It can cast spells in the same way, but receives one more feat.  Would your mind be changed if Weaker Wizard characters got a +1 to Spot with a class feature called "Canny Insight"?  I hope not, because with that feat one of the weakest things you could possibly do is get +2 to Spot, among other things.  Clearly then the class features of Weaker Wizard are not worth the lost feat.  If we were then to extrapolate this to Expert vs Monk, and simply look at Use Magic Device, the argument can be made that the Monk can just take a feat to get the ability to use Use Magic Device as a class skill.  Are it's other class features then worth a feat?  Maybe?  Do they still knowing that Experts have other class skills that are quite powerful?  They can also use Psionics, Autohypnosis, Lucid Dreaming, Handle Animal, etc.  That may not jive with your imagination of what it should be able to do, but has little bearing on a discussion of their relative power levels.


An argument has been made for item standardization as well.

At level 20 I will give every class in the PHB these items:
Vorpal Greatsword +5
Heavy Fortification Full Plate +5
Standard Adventurer's Gear
Holy Symbol
Heward's Handy Haversack
Material Component Pouch

There, so now we have a list of items to make every class "fairly balanced".  We will remove skills, because everyone seems to assert that they are not class features.  No one may have other items.  We won't use feats either, because anyone could take them! (lol?)  In alphabetical order then:

Barbarian: Can wear the full plate and sacrifice some class features, but likes the sword.  The rest of the stuff is pretty whatever!
Cleric: Can wear the plate, can use the sword with a penalty I suppose?  Likes the Holy Symbol!  Casts spells and wrecks everyone.
Wizard: Doesn't use any of those items except the component pouch.  Still manages to wreck the Barbarian and he and the Cleric walk off in to the sunset.
Etc.

All we've proved is that the power level of the Wizard and the Cleric is so far above the Barbarian, it doesn't even matter that they are naked.  What about if we compare a Monk and a Barbarian?  The easiest way for us to image is just to imagine the two fighting, but a one on one fight with no other terrain or factors is pretty rare in game, so that's sort of foolish.  The next easiest way is to imagine them in different situations.  They fail at nearly all except direct combat ones, in which case the Barbarian is pretty clearly ahead, with actual useable items and class features that make him a better fighter (instead of making him better at jumping off cliffs I guess?  Or making him not take penalties for aging which will never come up, or making it so he is immune to things that only affect Humanoids).  If you then picture him fighting an expert, or the two in a fight, again the barbarian wins out.  

But an Expert (or any class that has features that do not strictly revolve around combat) might be built that avoids combat all together.  Many wizards spend a good deal of time avoiding physical combat, and fair fights.  Still Wizards are clearly good, and clearly better in combat than many other classes. There is more to D&D than just combat and the wizard can shine there too, and I don't mean RP either or other games that all everyone to talk their way out of anything.  Plenty of situations call for non-combat abilities.  I think the worst thing that could be concluded is that they are equal, even if monks "shouldn't" be equal to experts.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #157 on: May 28, 2011, 08:49:24 PM »
I dunno. I played in a 16th level game where only one character had anything beyond a mundane (non-masterwork) weapon and (if they were lucky) plain leather armor.

Of course, the one character was a paladin with some sort of half-god template and so many artifacts on his person that trying to Detect Magic within miles of him would blind you AND your family.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

SorO_Lost

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2011, 09:12:24 PM »
Quote
Anybody who says that items are irrelevant to class power is a moron.
No one said that. :p

It's not as simple as items vs no items. There's some truth to the "It's the items that are winning here, not the class" argument, but if you're going to insist on no items
Seconded, see also my comment about a +5 Furious Berseker Fury Greatsword.

All these are reasons why these classes are considered better than Dumbass McFighter. They aren't the only reason, which is why nobody argues about these classes being better than a Monk. But even the icing on this cake contributes to its world-shattering arcane might.
You're on a roll.

Anybody who insists that an Expert is a better class than the Monk because it gets UMD as a class skill isn't too bright, either.
In all fairness, it's not just UMD, it's also 2 of the 3 Diplomacy Synergy skills and Handle Animal.  What's more, when you talk about T5 classes you're really talking about characters who can really only optimize skill use to a reasonable level.
And excellent summery. Really nails down my point if you spoke of items instead of skills.

Skill or Item optimization is of little to no value to measuring classes. The ability to craft them in 99% of the cases is subsumed in the fact everyone has free access anyway. What matters is what you can do without them, what items do to augment YOUR abilities, and yes what your abilities can do to augment items (to a lesser extent). In a less than humorless paragraph; the Monk is better than an Expert. Expert is limited to nothing but skill optimization, the monk on the other hand can still punch his way though the Expert's house and could probably beat a cat. the PsyWar is better than a monk because even without getting into infinite PP the power access is just plain better than the Monk features. Devolving things into who has what items is a sure sign of losing.

I'm in a hurry so I can't comment full on the other guy's post. If you asked me to compare the barbarian with the monk. I'd have to start asking questions. A barbarian is better at combat and combat rules the game. Generally, the Barbarian is superior. However the monk does pull ahead for noncombat situations and has more than the one trick pony offering of charge and hit with big club. Not much though. Idk, I'd like to think the Monk could pull his own out of game, with when coupled with how easy it is to out scale monster HP with charging (ie the only thing the barb can do) theres room for opinion to rear it's head and both people could be right.




Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Sobolev

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Re: Expert vs Monk Challenge!
« Reply #159 on: May 28, 2011, 09:48:29 PM »
I dunno. I played in a 16th level game where only one character had anything beyond a mundane (non-masterwork) weapon and (if they were lucky) plain leather armor.

Of course, the one character was a paladin with some sort of half-god template and so many artifacts on his person that trying to Detect Magic within miles of him would blind you AND your family.

If the one character was controlled by the DM, that isn't a game, and is the DM masturbating while you all watch and pretend to care.
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Quote from: Negative Zero on November 04, 2009, 02:16:14 AM
In my humble opinion, CO is haberdashery. Some say we're mad, but we can all agree we're hatters. Yes, we have potential to make very sophisticated hats, very fancy hats, be they dark or light. But the truth is that the color of the hat does not come from the group of us - our community doesn't directly produce hats. We simply give average head circumferences, list current fashion trends, and point out some shiny, obscure baubles to add to the latest hat line.