Author Topic: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-Taking Requests  (Read 330894 times)

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Catty Nebulart

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Interesting take on the keeper I like it, more comments later after I've had a chance to properly mull it over.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

CDTalmas

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Before I tackle the monster that is the Aeon there, I'm going to post my review of the Achaierai.

Achaierai:
[spoiler]The achaierai should be a simple creature with simple wants.  The bird looks and acts as a normal "bird of prey" and, again, doesn't feel very PC-like.  Perhaps as a mount of sorts or a trained beast for a druid.  Unfortunately, the MM portrays them quite differently.  They are agile, intelligent creatures, much like the raptors of Jurassic Park but with the mind of a cat (chase after it, knock it down, gore it up a bit and play with it before finally consuming).

The Hit and Run ability feels a little weak when compared with, say, the Anthropomorphic Animal which can "pounce" during a spring attack.  Maybe allow its bite to start a grapple.  Then, while it has a creature of one size or more smaller grappled, it flees with its prey (its beak maintains the grapple without the achaierai itself having to).  This is especially effective if the creature moves in groups/flocks.

Long Legs is kind of a necessity for that creature's build.  They have an ostrich-type feel to them.  Disrupting Feathers would feel a bit on the tacked-on side, but they are outsiders.  Outsiders seem to have this penchant of being resistant to magic (and, again, it matches with the MM version).  Do the multiple legs grant a bonus on stability?  Possible grapple bonuses?

Regarding Black Cloud, is the cloud considered to be "poisonous"/Poison?  It is important to know for the sake of defending against its attack.  Druids, for example, would be immune once past ninth level.  The improved Maddening Cloud is a nice touch, though Will Saves are usually on the lower end as levels rise, making it rather powerful on its own.

Ability increases seem standard.  One thing, though, that always got me was the defined "Lawful Evil" of the creature.  If the creature were somehow of another alignment, would its natural/manufactured weapons count as the new alignment or STILL of the old alignment?  Remember, there are always exceptions to a given alignment.  I'm assuming you prefer to not look at alternate alignments as a possibility for simplicity sake.  I can't say I fully disagree with you, but I think a simple clause could fix it right up.[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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The achaierai should be a simple creature with simple wants.  The bird looks and acts as a normal "bird of prey" and, again, doesn't feel very PC-like.  Perhaps as a mount of sorts or a trained beast for a druid.  Unfortunately, the MM portrays them quite differently.  They are agile, intelligent creatures, much like the raptors of Jurassic Park but with the mind of a cat (chase after it, knock it down, gore it up a bit and play with it before finally consuming).
Heh, I admit I wasn't very inspired when making that one and it ended up somewhat bland. But I just can't take the official fluff seriously when I look at the picture and it reminds me of a four-legged chicken!

The Hit and Run ability feels a little weak when compared with, say, the Anthropomorphic Animal which can "pounce" during a spring attack.  Maybe allow its bite to start a grapple.  Then, while it has a creature of one size or more smaller grappled, it flees with its prey (its beak maintains the grapple without the achaierai itself having to).  This is especially effective if the creature moves in groups/flocks.
Hit and Run is gained at 2nd level. The AA ability is gained at 5th level. Of course the AA ability is stronger!

Long Legs is kind of a necessity for that creature's build.  They have an ostrich-type feel to them.  Disrupting Feathers would feel a bit on the tacked-on side, but they are outsiders.  Outsiders seem to have this penchant of being resistant to magic (and, again, it matches with the MM version).  Do the multiple legs grant a bonus on stability?  Possible grapple bonuses?
Continue...

Regarding Black Cloud, is the cloud considered to be "poisonous"/Poison?  It is important to know for the sake of defending against its attack.  Druids, for example, would be immune once past ninth level.  The improved Maddening Cloud is a nice touch, though Will Saves are usually on the lower end as levels rise, making it rather powerful on its own.
Isn't put as a poison effect, so isn't poison. Specially because almost everything at mid-high levels ends up immune to poison

Ability increases seem standard.  One thing, though, that always got me was the defined "Lawful Evil" of the creature.  If the creature were somehow of another alignment, would its natural/manufactured weapons count as the new alignment or STILL of the old alignment?  Remember, there are always exceptions to a given alignment.  I'm assuming you prefer to not look at alternate alignments as a possibility for simplicity sake.  I can't say I fully disagree with you, but I think a simple clause could fix it right up.[/spoiler]
Wotc already took care of that one for me. Creatures with alignment subtypes (the only ones whose attacks count as a subtype) keep said subtypes even when they change their alignments.

Anyway, gonna make a quick spiffing up of the Achaierai.

EDIT: Done.Moved hit and run to 1st level so it isn't just limited to full attacking at start, added Beak Snatch to 2nd level and powerful legs to 4th level.

CDTalmas

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The achaierai should be a simple creature with simple wants.  The bird looks and acts as a normal "bird of prey" and, again, doesn't feel very PC-like.  Perhaps as a mount of sorts or a trained beast for a druid.  Unfortunately, the MM portrays them quite differently.  They are agile, intelligent creatures, much like the raptors of Jurassic Park but with the mind of a cat (chase after it, knock it down, gore it up a bit and play with it before finally consuming).
Heh, I admit I wasn't very inspired when making that one and it ended up somewhat bland. But I just can't take the official fluff seriously when I look at the picture and it reminds me of a four-legged chicken!

The Hit and Run ability feels a little weak when compared with, say, the Anthropomorphic Animal which can "pounce" during a spring attack.  Maybe allow its bite to start a grapple.  Then, while it has a creature of one size or more smaller grappled, it flees with its prey (its beak maintains the grapple without the achaierai itself having to).  This is especially effective if the creature moves in groups/flocks.
Hit and Run is gained at 2nd level. The AA ability is gained at 5th level. Of course the AA ability is stronger!

Long Legs is kind of a necessity for that creature's build.  They have an ostrich-type feel to them.  Disrupting Feathers would feel a bit on the tacked-on side, but they are outsiders.  Outsiders seem to have this penchant of being resistant to magic (and, again, it matches with the MM version).  Do the multiple legs grant a bonus on stability?  Possible grapple bonuses?
Continue...

Regarding Black Cloud, is the cloud considered to be "poisonous"/Poison?  It is important to know for the sake of defending against its attack.  Druids, for example, would be immune once past ninth level.  The improved Maddening Cloud is a nice touch, though Will Saves are usually on the lower end as levels rise, making it rather powerful on its own.
Isn't put as a poison effect, so isn't poison. Specially because almost everything at mid-high levels ends up immune to poison

Ability increases seem standard.  One thing, though, that always got me was the defined "Lawful Evil" of the creature.  If the creature were somehow of another alignment, would its natural/manufactured weapons count as the new alignment or STILL of the old alignment?  Remember, there are always exceptions to a given alignment.  I'm assuming you prefer to not look at alternate alignments as a possibility for simplicity sake.  I can't say I fully disagree with you, but I think a simple clause could fix it right up.[/spoiler]
Wotc already took care of that one for me. Creatures with alignment subtypes (the only ones whose attacks count as a subtype) keep said subtypes even when they change their alignments.

Anyway, gonna make a quick spiffing up of the Achaierai.


Regarding the Hit and Run, I realize that's at 2nd level.  Perhaps a certain hit die will enable the beast to make multiple attacks or perform previously mentioned grapple?  (8+ HD or so)

Also... "Continue..."?

Regarding the alignment thing, I guess WotC did cover that... strange.  However, that's for redeemed monsters.  What of those born under good circumstances?  Should I just assume the same thing?

As far as poison, I really think that the cloud should have a type so that it can be defended against.  Maybe make it such that creatures normally immune to poison can still be affected, but with a +5 to their saves?  Creatures that require no fortitude saves are still immune (undead/construct).

All just thoughts on ways to keep it viable even at higher levels without necessarily breaking the game.

oslecamo

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Regarding the Hit and Run, I realize that's at 2nd level.  Perhaps a certain hit die will enable the beast to make multiple attacks or perform previously mentioned grapple?  (8+ HD or so)
I already made some modifications, check it out.

Also... "Continue..."?
That just means I was liking your train of tought. :P

Regarding the alignment thing, I guess WotC did cover that... strange.  However, that's for redeemed monsters.  What of those born under good circumstances?  Should I just assume the same thing?
That's an heavily debated topic. I'll just let it to DMs to decide.

As far as poison, I really think that the cloud should have a type so that it can be defended against.  Maybe make it such that creatures normally immune to poison can still be affected, but with a +5 to their saves?  Creatures that require no fortitude saves are still immune (undead/construct).

All just thoughts on ways to keep it viable even at higher levels without necessarily breaking the game.
It's simple damage! 6d6 damage at 18 HD! Even as an immediate action, that's pretty far from broken. Even acounting for the insanity, considering that it targets Fort and is based on a secondary stat, most things out there can easily shrugg it off, and constructs/undeads still gain the +5 save because they're immune to mind-affecting.

CDTalmas

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Regarding the Hit and Run, I realize that's at 2nd level.  Perhaps a certain hit die will enable the beast to make multiple attacks or perform previously mentioned grapple?  (8+ HD or so)
I already made some modifications, check it out.

Ah, cool.  Those work :)

Also... "Continue..."?
That just means I was liking your train of tought. :P

Gotcha!  Thanks for considering.

Regarding the alignment thing, I guess WotC did cover that... strange.  However, that's for redeemed monsters.  What of those born under good circumstances?  Should I just assume the same thing?
That's an heavily debated topic. I'll just let it to DMs to decide.

Yeah, it certainly seems like that would be a DM's call.  Could be more than just "how they act" being involved after all.

As far as poison, I really think that the cloud should have a type so that it can be defended against.  Maybe make it such that creatures normally immune to poison can still be affected, but with a +5 to their saves?  Creatures that require no fortitude saves are still immune (undead/construct).

All just thoughts on ways to keep it viable even at higher levels without necessarily breaking the game.
It's simple damage! 6d6 damage at 18 HD! Even as an immediate action, that's pretty far from broken. Even acounting for the insanity, considering that it targets Fort and is based on a secondary stat, most things out there can easily shrugg it off, and constructs/undeads still gain the +5 save because they're immune to mind-affecting.

You have it written as targeting Will.  That could be a typo or something you didn't realize.  Constructs/Undead, as written, would be wholly immune to it and not because of immunity to mind-affecting.  They're immune to fortitude saves.  However, I will concede as the usage of the word "toxic" is what is throwing me off.  I suppose it's just an untyped chemical that's somewhat corrosive.

CDTalmas

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Aeon, Pleroma:
[spoiler]The pleroma is an odd creature.  Thanks to PF's statement of some of them gaining "personalities", they can certainly become PCs.  Why they would start off weak is beyond me, but that is the purpose of this thread ;) To create playable creatures for the players.

Truth be told, despite the creature's many levels and VERY definable power, it feels very lackluster.  It's awesome that it can create permanent matter and create spheres of annihilation.  It's awesome that it gets full cleric casting, even if they are just domain spells (and abilities).  It's pretty cool that they get some spell-like abilities that mostly fit its flavor (not 100% certain about Freedom of Movement, though I can see a small connection).  It just doesn't have the wow factor, though.  It's almost like saying "Why yes, my genius son did start algebra at the age of 4, craft a master thesis by the time he was in high school, and join the scientific community at large where he's doing his darndest to fight cancer!"  Where's that cure for cancer, y'know?

Low-speed levitation to full blown flight later on is fine.  Helps the creature in the form of not touching pressure plates.  I assume that the casting is based on WIS, just like a cleric.  If it gains cleric levels, can it actually choose to gain two more domains (totaling five domain abilities)?  Does the pleroma gain "domain casting slots"?  Can it gain a domain it already has?  Also:  "It uses its Pleroma level for any domain special power" to me means that it overwrites that 1-level dip of cleric.  And PrC's that grant domains as well.

Regarding the resistances, I'm thinking of something along the lines of "once a monster class reaches 15 resistance, it becomes immunity."  Most creatures can still function as a PC despite having a powerful ability.

Ability score increases seem somewhat small and rather cramped in their distribution.  Obviously all three ability scores are required for the pleroma, but again with the lackluster thing.

Fast healing and SR are pretty much on target.

Breaking the spheres up into three categories was probably a good idea.  Balance the Scales is nice, though charisma will not be a highlight attribute for the creature (will probably focus more on WIS than CHA).  And finally, Eternal Cycle is okay.  I know the phoenix is the phoenix and all, but it doesn't take nearly as much work for that bird to be "reborn" than the 20 levels it takes for the aeon creature.[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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You're right that it doesn't have any "cancer cure" ability. The reason for that is quite simple. It gets 9th level spellcasting and 9th level SLAs. The phoenix gets to be reborn earlier and then improves on it because that's the main phoenix trick. The plemora gets reborning only at 20th level because it already has plenty of other powerful abilities. Heck I even wondered if I wasn't pushing it over the top with the spheres thrown in. I'm pretty sure you can get some cure to cancer by combining all the Aeon abilities.

Clarified all the domains slots and stacking thing. Wis-based is included on the fact that its cleric casting.

Gotta keep ability score bonus on more check when its fullcasters.

If I want to give a monster immunity to an element, I'll do so. There's a very significant diference between Resistance 15 and immunity, as high level enemies can still dish out high amounts of elemental damage.

Also pretty glad to see you got the "make monsters playable damnit!" spirit! :P

Catty Nebulart

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Quote
Keeper Skin: At  2nd level the Keeper gains Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electrecity, Fire and Sonic equal to his HD, DR/magic equal to half its HD, and SR equal to 11+HD. It may rise or lower its SR at any time as a free action even if it isn't its turn.

Electricity, raise

Quote
Alien  Physiology

This seems like a very fat list of immunities to give at once, 5'th and 7'th level are a little underwhelming, you might want to move a few immunities there.

Quote
Eyeless

Please clarify if it still has normal vision (like say a Myrdal who is also eye-less), or if it just has darkvision and sonar. The original monster is also not clear about it...


About the Hive Mind and Body Switch, the special companions should probably count as keepers for both abilities.

Pattern Assault seems a little underwhelming for a capstone, also since the keeper uses natural weapons it will fall behind regular fighters with it's lack of iterative attacks, unless it picks up levels in monk (or monk-like).
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

CDTalmas

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Again, I'm not saying that the pleroma isn't powerful.  It just feels like it's lacking, even with that resurrection ability.  Have you considered, perhaps, what would happen if two level 3 orbs (one creation, one destruction) were to be combined?  Do they negate?  Or do they enhance one another to be insanely powerful?  Can the pleroma control it at that point?  Would it have the effect of a staff of the magi?  Maybe automatic application of any number of metamagics to the creature's spells.  Maybe a gate is created and other pleromas of the same level are brought in.  The orbs still have their duration, after all.

It just feels like the orbs should've been the highlight of the creature, not spellcasting/SLA's.

Also, be careful with the creature's disrupting touch at the end of a charge.  One level of Barbarian makes this creature a monster (Lion totem for pounce).  With a full BAB, that's four touch attacks.

oslecamo

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Added a waiting list on the third post to help keep tab of things.

Also did a cleanup on the Succubus

Quote
Keeper Skin: At  2nd level the Keeper gains Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electrecity, Fire and Sonic equal to his HD, DR/magic equal to half its HD, and SR equal to 11+HD. It may rise or lower its SR at any time as a free action even if it isn't its turn.

Electricity, raise
Done.

Quote
Alien  Physiology
This seems like a very fat list of immunities to give at once, 5'th and 7'th level are a little underwhelming, you might want to move a few immunities there.
I wondered about how to best distribute the immunities quite a bit. Moved.

Quote
Eyeless
Please clarify if it still has normal vision (like say a Myrdal who is also eye-less), or if it just has darkvision and sonar. The original monster is also not clear about it...
Well, the monster says it's blind, so clarified that part on the class.

About the Hive Mind and Body Switch, the special companions should probably count as keepers for both abilities.
Ouch, can't believe I forgot to add that! Done.

Pattern Assault seems a little underwhelming for a capstone, also since the keeper uses natural weapons it will fall behind regular fighters with it's lack of iterative attacks, unless it picks up levels in monk (or monk-like).

Pattern assault now adds Int mod to damage rolls, all the time. How about this way? Remember that the Keeper's also geting a bunch of immunities and the body switch at 7th level.

Also please don't forget the merfolk! ;)

Again, I'm not saying that the pleroma isn't powerful.  It just feels like it's lacking, even with that resurrection ability.  Have you considered, perhaps, what would happen if two level 3 orbs (one creation, one destruction) were to be combined?  Do they negate?  Or do they enhance one another to be insanely powerful?  Can the pleroma control it at that point?  Would it have the effect of a staff of the magi?  Maybe automatic application of any number of metamagics to the creature's spells.  Maybe a gate is created and other pleromas of the same level are brought in.  The orbs still have their duration, after all.

It just feels like the orbs should've been the highlight of the creature, not spellcasting/SLA's.
Now there's an interesting idea. Behold the new Aeon capstone!


Also, be careful with the creature's disrupting touch at the end of a charge.  One level of Barbarian makes this creature a monster (Lion totem for pounce).  With a full BAB, that's four touch attacks.
Pft, already took care of that. The disruptive touch isn't an attack action, thus you don't get iterative attacks with it! :P

CDTalmas

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Very nice on the pleroma.  Now it just cured cancer ;) Well... maybe it caused it in the first place >.> Can never tell with them and their balancing act.  One last thing, though, and I might have missed this:  Can the pleroma be considered "speaking" by envisaging?  For sake of verbal components.  Many, and I do mean many, spells have a verbal component element to them.

[Edit]Oh, forgot to mention, the Luck domain will be a worthwhile investment for the pleroma if it is to utilize its final ability.  He only gets one shot per day--may as well make the best out of it!  Can probably oppose Luck with the Fate domain.[/Edit]
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 09:59:48 PM by CDTalmas »


Catty Nebulart

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Quote
Pattern assault now adds Int mod to damage rolls, all the time. How about this way? Remember that the Keeper's also geting a bunch of immunities and the body switch at 7th level.

I like it, instead of several attacks at ever decreasing reliability the keeper just gets a few reliable attacks that deal a lot of damage.

Quote
Also please don't forget the merfolk! Wink
But the Keeper is so much more interesting. :P
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

Catty Nebulart

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One minor balance fix, though I'm not 100% sure it's needed.

Quote
First, the Keeper now adds his Int mod to Mimic Weapon damage rolls all the time.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."


vingolf

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Taking requests are we? How about spicing up a Behir? Or an Ankheg?

Catty Nebulart

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So I was looking over the Succubus, and I had a few comments.

Quote
Gifted:At 3rd level the Succubus can use tongues on herself as a SLA 1/day for each HD she has. She also gains a bonus to listen and spot checks equal to her HD.

Honestly, since it starts out as 3*30 minutes you might as well make it a permanent effect since in a level or two at most that's what it'll amount to, and that reduces book keeping.

Also why is it not proficient with the Whip? :smirk

Also it's very powerful race, I'll stat some up to check for balance.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

Tenebrus

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This is some insanely good work.  Many thanks.

oslecamo

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vingolf: Added to the waiting list.

So I was looking over the Succubus, and I had a few comments.

Quote
Gifted:At 3rd level the Succubus can use tongues on herself as a SLA 1/day for each HD she has. She also gains a bonus to listen and spot checks equal to her HD.

Honestly, since it starts out as 3*30 minutes you might as well make it a permanent effect since in a level or two at most that's what it'll amount to, and that reduces book keeping.
You're right, changed.

Also why is it not proficient with the Whip? :smirk
Well, I had given it Use Rope for that kind of stuff, but since whips aren't that useful whitout investment, and it's quite flavourful, added! :p

Also it's very powerful race, I'll stat some up to check for balance.
Sure.

Tenebrus:Thanks! :D