Author Topic: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-Taking Requests  (Read 333841 times)

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the_shadowmind

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Any reason for choosing the 3.0 CR 6 Monster's of Fearun version instead of the arguably weaker 3.5 CR 8 Anauroch: The Empire of Shade version? Not having the book is understandable.
Geez, excuse me for not having every adventure D&D book ever printed.   :p
I did say that not having the book was understandable.

I like the version better, so thank you.
The other one at level 4 you could get screwed overly by needed to cast a spell from one list of the other and having a 35% chance of not being able to.

Now I want to find a game where I can play a gestated Sharn 8/Mystic Theruge 10/ Cloisted Cleric 1/Choker2/ Tarrasque 2/Blink Dog 2/ Nymph 3/Pseudodragon 1/Creature of Legend 2/Warblade 3/Sword sage 2

oslecamo

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Deadly Dancer

[spoiler]
HD:d8
LevelBabFortRefWillFeature
1+1+0+2 +0Deadly Dancer Body,  Improved WhirlWind Attack, Deadly Grace, +2 Dex
2+2+0+3 +0Deadly Dodge, Soak Blood, +1 Dex
3+3+1+3 +1Augmented Critical, Deadly Dance, +1 Dex
Skills: 6+int modifier per level, quadruple at 1st level.The Deadly Dancer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb(Str), Diplomacy(Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Royalty and Nobilty) (Int), Move Silently(Dex), Perform(Cha), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str) and Tumble(Dex)
 
Proficiencies:its own natural weapons.

Features:
Deadly Dancer Body: At 1st level, the Deadly Dancer loses all other racial bonus and gets aberration traits (darkvision 60 feets basicaly). It's a medium sized aberration creature with base speed 40 feet. All its four limbs ends in an Appendage Blade wich count as natural weapons dealing 1d6+Str mod damage each. The Deadly Dancer must still hold itself upon one of its limbs, so it can only attack with three Appendage Blades at a time unless flying by some special means.
 
The Deadly Dancer also gets a Nat armor bonus equal to its Con mod. It cannot speak or perform fine manipulation, but can still communicate trough complex dances. It feeds trough absorbing liquides trough its Appendage Blades.

In addition, the Deadly Dancer's base speed increases by an extra 10 feet for every new Deadly Dancer level, and 5 feet for any other level taken.

Improved Whirlwind Attack: As a standard action the Deadly Dancer can make a blade appendage attack at its full attack bonus against every oponent whitin its reach.

Deadly Grace: The Deadly Dancer can use its Dex mod instead of Str mod for melee attack and damage rolls. It can also use Dex instead of Cha for Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate and Perform.

Ability Score Increase: The Deadly dancer gains a permanent +2 to Dex at first level and then +1 to Dex at 2nd and 3rd level, for a total of +4 Dex at 3rd level.

Deadly Dodge: At 2nd level the Deadly Dancer cannot be flanked and always retains its Dex bonus to AC even when flatfooted or unable to see the oponent. Whenever an oponent misses an attack against the Deadly Dancer, it provokes an attack of oportunity from the Deadly Dancer (if whitin reach of course).

In addition as an immediate action the Deadly Dancer may roll a Tumble check and use it either as its AC or as a Save result against one attack targeting it.

Soak Blood: At 2nd level whenever the Deadly Dancer deals the killing blow to a living creature with at least 2 HD with one of its Appendage Blades, that natural weapon gains an enanchment bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to half the HD of the killed victim. This bonus lasts for 24 hours. The Deadly dancer cannot gain an enanchment bonus higher than +5 to attack and damage rolls, but enanchment points can be spent to get special abilities like keen.

Augmented Critical: At 3rd level the Deadly Dancer's Appendage Blades threaten a critical in a 18-20 and deal triple damage in a sucessfull critical.

Deadly Dance:At 3rd level the Deadly Dancer may create a special performace 1/day for every 3 HD it has as a free action during its own turn. During it all of the Deadly Dancer's move speeds double, and as a fullround action the Deadly Dancer may move up to its (improved) movement speed and attack once every creature it passes whitin reach (max of one attack against each creature each round).

In addition when an oponent misses an attack against it while he's on a Deadly Dance, the Deadly Dancer may turn the dodge into a mocking movement, allowing it to take a 5-foot step and perform either a Demoralize or Feint atempt against the oponent that missed the attack. Deadly Dancers gleefully provoke attacks of oportunity by moving around their oponents just to dodge them and create dispair in their prey.

Deadly Dance lasts for a number of rounds equal to half the Deadly Dancer's ranks in tumble, after wich the Deadly Dancer is fatigued.

[/spoiler]

Comments
[spoiler]
The Deadly Dancer is the monster form of the Vestige Paimon, wich focus on dancing while slicing up people. It also drinks blood from its Appendage Blades.

Focusing on those points, the end result is a quite agile melee melee monster. Altough it does have a lot of abilities for a 3-level class, it also has no hands, no mouth, not much on "standard" defenses like fast healing/DR/SR, no ranged capacity and no magic.

Your superior speed allows you to close in fast and then focus your blades in one target or attack everybody whitin reach if you're surrounded. Immunity to flanking and flatfooted and tumble to AC or saves allows you to take some risks. Deadly grace allows you to focus on Dex as the main stat.

So if you want to play a creature that's literally a set of dancing blades, the Deadly Dancer's for you!

[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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I like the version better, so thank you.
Always good to see another satisfied customer. :)

Now I want to find a game where I can play a gestated Sharn 8/Mystic Theruge 10/ Cloisted Cleric 1/Choker2/ Tarrasque 2/Blink Dog 2/ Nymph 3/Pseudodragon 1/Creature of Legend 2/Warblade 3/Sword sage 2
I must point out that you cannot multiclass freely between base monster classes besides template/prcs like Creature of Legend. You need to take Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid feats for each additional base monster class, so you would need at least 12 feats for that build.

the_shadowmind

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Now I want to find a game where I can play a gestated Sharn 8/Mystic Theruge 10/ Cloisted Cleric 1/Choker2/ Tarrasque 2/Blink Dog 2/ Nymph 3/Pseudodragon 1/Creature of Legend 2/Warblade 3/Sword sage 2
I must point out that you cannot multiclass freely between base monster classes besides template/prcs like Creature of Legend. You need to take Monster Blooded and Monster Hybrid feats for each additional base monster class, so you would need at least 12 feats for that build.
[/quote]

10 feats, 2 for choker, 2 for tarrasque, 2 for blink dog, 2 for nymph and two for pseudodragon. Could lose the blink dog and pseudodragons level, since they aren't that needed the free action DD is only an okay ability, and the telepathy can be gotten else where, reducing it to 6 feats. Dark chaos shuffle would work but likely not allowed in most games. 

Wasn't there an option before the monster feat were made that the DM could allow multiclassing between could be allowed, but not recommend?

Requiring two feats is per class is quite a commitment.
Perhaps a third feat in the chain that allow you to multiclass freely between the monster classes, but you don't get the ability score bonuses unless you have the monster blooded feat for that class.

How does monster hybrid interact between the Growth-like abilities of the Monster classes.

b100d_arrowz

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The Sharn’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb(Str), Diplomacy(Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Royalty and Nobilty) (Int), Move Silently(Dex), Perform(Cha), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str) and Tumble(Dex)
Should be the Deadly Dancer's class skills.


How about the Daelkyr from the Eberron campaign setting? In that canon they are the ones who made beholders, mind flayers, chokers etc. Seem like a fun CR 20 to make
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the_shadowmind

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How about a try at the Genie, Khayal. CR 6, Tome of magic pg 162-163?

oslecamo

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War Troll(Prc)


[SPOILER]War troll(Prc)

Prerequisites:
-Must have all 5 levels of the troll class
HD:d10
LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
1st
+1
+2
+0
+0
Bonus feat, Brute  Warrior, +1str +1con
2nd
+2
+3
+0
+0
Forged by Magic, Hard Charge, +1str +1con
3rd
+3
+3
+1
+1
Dazing Blow, Lunging Shot, +1str, +1con
4th
+4
+4
+1
+1
Bonus Feat, Improved Regeneration, +1str, +1con
5th
+5
+4
+1
+1
Precise and Methodical, War Experience, +1str, +1con
6th
+6
+5
+2
+2
]Master Of the Dazing Blow, Improvise, +1str, +1con
7th
+7
+5
+2
+2
Premium Merceneary, Bonus Feat, +1str, +1con

Skills: 2+int modifier per level. Class skills are spot, listen, climb, jump, swim, knowledge(war), intimidate, ride, tumble.

Proficiencies: All simple weapons, martials weapons, light and medium armor, light and heavy shields

Features:


Bonus feat: At 1st, 4th and 7th level a war troll can select a feat from the fighters bonus feat and war troll lvs count as fighter lvs for selecting feats.

Brute Warrior: Where others rely on fancy tutelage and natural talent, a War Troll compensates the lack of those things with raw muscle power. The War Troll may ignore any skill points or ability score requisites on feats he picks. If a feat's effect would be based on a skill or ability score, the War Troll may replace them with his Intimidate skill and Strenght respectivily.

Ability Score Increase: The War Troll gains a permanent  +1 to Str and Con at every level, for a total of +7 Str and +7 Con at 7th level.

Forged by Magic: War Trolls are engineered by powerful arcane spellcasters to be unstoppable engines of war. At 2nd level, a War Troll gains DR/adamantine equal to 1/2 its HD. Additionally, these spellcasters made the War Troll especially resistant to magic; war Trolls have Spell Resistance equal to their HD + 11, wich can be droped at any time as a free action, even if it isn't the troll's turn.

Hard Charge: At 2nd level the War Troll's base speed increases by 10 feet, and it can now use manufactured weapons with its Overrun ability from the normal troll class.

Dazing blow: At 3rd level, the first time a War Troll hits an oponent with a weapon in each round, they're dazed for 1 round unless he make a fortitude save equal to 10+1/2HD+str modifier. This ability is considered a free action, the war troll  may only use this ability one time per round and the war troll declares this ability before the attack .

Lunging Shot: At 3rd level the War Troll learns how to combine its spear hurling tradition with more advanced weapons, and then improves it. As Lunging Throw from the Troll class, but the War Troll doesn't need to move, works with any ranged weapon, and the War Troll ignores adverse wind conditions with its ranged attacks, even magic ones like Wind Wall.

Improved Regeneration: At 4th level the War Troll's regeneration is now equal to its full HD. Only acid  deals normal damage to a war troll. If a war troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 2d4 minutes. The War Troll can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Precise and Methodical:At 5th level the War Troll knows how to combine its massive natural prowess with martial skill to make sure its oponents have no breathing room whatsoever. The DCs of any skill used by oponent threatend by the War Troll increases by an amount equal to the War Troll's Bab. So for example a caster trying to cast a 1st level spell defensively near a Troll 5/War Troll 5 would have to suceed on a Concentration Check with DC 24 instead of DC 16. Oponents are aware of this ability.

War Experience: At 5th level a War Troll can evaluate an oponent's prowess with just a glance. The War Troll automatically knows all the feats of other creatures he can see whose CR is equal to his HD or lower. If they're higher CR, the War Troll must fight with them for a number of rounds equal to the CR-level diference to gain this benefit.

In addition, as an immediate action, the War Troll may nullify one feat one oponent has for 1 round by using his superior battle experience to counter them with minimal effort. The feat must belong to the fighter bonus feat list, and the oponent loses all benefits of the feat for 1 round. If the feat was a requisite for some prestige class or special ability the oponent has, it cannot use those special abilities while the feat is nullified, including special abilities from the prestige class. Oponents with the same number of fighter levels or higher than you are immune to this ability. You need to know your oponent's feats to use this ability.

Master Of the Dazing Blow: At 6th level, every hit from the War Troll works as a Dazing Blow, not only the first sucessfull hit every round.

Improvise: A War Troll can quickly adapt to any battle situation. At 6th level as an immediate action, they may gain any feat for wich they meet the prerequisites. This feat lasts for 1 round.

Premium Mercenary:
War Trolls are warriors for hire of renown, and it's also a well known fact they love magic weapons and armor, so such items are usually offered as bargaining chips to get on the good side of the War Trolls, least they accept a better-paying contract from an enemy. At 7th level, by spending 24 hours into an heavily populated area, the War Troll may get one of its weapons and suits of armor (or a shield) to receive an enanchment bonus equal to half its HD as extra pay for some past job or an advancment for some work in the future. The items cannot gain an enanchment bonus higher than +5 to attack and damage rolls (AC in the case of armor/shield), but enanchment points can be spent to get special abilities like keen.

Only one such weapon and armor/shield at a time, altough the War Troll may change their enchantments with another 24 hours in any heavily populated area.

[/SPOILER]

Comments:
[spoiler]
Overhauled War Troll since I believed the old one was quite lacking.

So now the war troll is more of a combat master/tactician, knowing how to properly hinder its oponents while laying down the hurt. Dazing blow at will now, first only once per round, then in every attack at 11th level. Because Fort saves are obscenely high across the board.

Can nullify oponents feats or gain new ones on the fly as needed, but not both on the same round.

Capstone of people offering you shiny gear for free because you're so badass.

So if you want a troll that knows how to properly swing a sword and loves it, the War Troll's for you!
[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Wasn't there an option before the monster feat were made that the DM could allow multiclassing between could be allowed, but not recommend?
it's still there in the FAQ.

Requiring two feats is per class is quite a commitment.
Perhaps a third feat in the chain that allow you to multiclass freely between the monster classes, but you don't get the ability score bonuses unless you have the monster blooded feat for that class.
Don't really like that idea since as I don't really feel it's a very good idea to mix too many monster classes at once.

How does monster hybrid interact between the Growth-like abilities of the Monster classes.
Well I would say the growths stack untill you reach colossal, then you stop growing.

Quote
The Sharn’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb(Str), Diplomacy(Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Royalty and Nobilty) (Int), Move Silently(Dex), Perform(Cha), Sense Motive(Wis), Spot(Wis), Swim(Str) and Tumble(Dex)
Should be the Deadly Dancer's class skills.

Corrected, thanks.

How about the Daelkyr from the Eberron campaign setting? In that canon they are the ones who made beholders, mind flayers, chokers etc. Seem like a fun CR 20 to make
You people and your 20th level monsters. Ok, I'll work on that next, this project started with the 20 levels red dragon after all. :p

the_shadowmind

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I meant what do you do it you have two at X HD before size Y, at the same time, when one instance of Y is small and the other instance of Y is large.
Pesudodragon, or a Growth ability and the a size set ability?


b100d_arrowz

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You people and your 20th level monsters. Ok, I'll work on that next, this project started with the 20 levels red dragon after all.  :p
How about the nice simple Shrieker from MMI  :P
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Jim Profit

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Actually oslecamo, I disagree about changing anything about the monster. There's really nothing a monster PC could do that would make another PC feel screwed over. Less you allow major exploits. In my experience, my DMs have been pretty content with my monster PC ideas, so long as I admittedly stay the course, and don't multiclass into a class or prestige class until monster levels are over. Thus preventing dipping abuse. And really, dipping abuse loses it's meaning after so long. Here's two of my own examples. I am a necrophiliac when it comes to undead PCs... lulz! It's just a shame that undead die immediately at zero HP, so really... they need all the help they can get. (Cause even though they're immune to most things, stuff like fireball would really hurt.) One thing that gives undead abuse potential is all hit dice is changed to d12s, so they can get the most out of a caster class... at least they could if they didn't have to eat so many levels. Here are two of my favorite undead, turned into monsters. And while I'm not a wiz at game balance, I would like to see how I stack up, because I've yet to run these passed a DM. Most undead are pretty straight foward.

All Undead have the following:
Hit dice d12. (All HD turned into d12)
Poor Reflex/Fortitude, Good Will.
Poor Base Attack Bonus.
Skillpoints 2+int modifier x4 first level, 2+int modifier each additional level.

MOHRG
[spoiler]
Weapon Proficiency: Simple and Martial.
Armor/Shield Proficiency: None.
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Spot.
Level 1: Slam (1d4), +2 Dexterity, +2 Natural Armor.
Level 2: Improved Grab, +2 Strength, +3 Natural Armor.
Level 3: Slam (Touch attack), Paralyzing Touch 1/day, +4 Natural Armor.
Level 4: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +5 Natural Armor.
Level 5:  Paralyzing Touch 2/day, +2 Dexterity, +6 Natural Armor.
Level 6: Paralyzing Touch 3/day, +7 Natural Armor.
Level 7: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +8 Natural Armor.
Level 8: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +9 Natural Armor.
Level 9: Slam (Reach), Paralyzing Touch at-will, Create Spawn.

Slam (Ex) :
You have a natural attack that deals 1d4 damage, critical 20/x2.

Dexterity Bonus (Ex) :
You gain +2 to dexterity at 1st, 4th, 5th, 7th, and 8th level.

Strength Bonus (Ex) :
You gain +2 to strength at 2cd, 4th, 7th, 8th level.

Natural Armor (Ex) :
At first level you gain a natural armor bonus of +2, and an additional +1 every level thereafter to a maximum of +9 at level 8.

Improved Grab (Ex) :
You gain improved grab as a bonus feat at second level, even if you don't meet the prerequisites. You may use improved grab in combination with your slam attack.

Slam Touch Attack (Ex) :
All attacks with your slam are treated as melee touch attacks.

Slam Reach (Ex) :
Your slam attack becomes a reach weapon 10ft at ninth level.

Paralyzing Touch (Su) :
At third level once per day as an immediate action, you can have your slam attack require the opponent to make a fortitude save, DC equal to 10+half your mohrg level+charisma modifier, or become paralyzed for 1d4 minutes. This increases to 2/day at fifth level, 3/day at sixth level, and at-will at ninth. A creature who saves against the paralyzing touch, is immune to the effect for 24 hours.

Create Spawn (Su) :
Creatures killed by the mohrg, rise as zombies in 1d4 days, under the morhg's control. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life, and must have been infected by the mohrg's paralyzing touch at least once in order to rise as a zombie. You can only control a total hit dice amount of zombie's this way, equal to your mohrg level+charisma modifier.
[/spoiler]

As you can see, it's mediocre, up until the sweet spot at level nine. Create spawn has been limited on purpose to prevent cheese, but I don't really think it was the hordes of zombies that worried people. Thats really a gimped summoner or animal companion. I think what worries people is the crazy paralyzation spam. But by level nine, other classes should be doing crazy shit anyway... But just to be on the safe side, I calmed that down too you better get it right the first time, or you'll be waiting a while to try again. The reach thing, I just always imagined the mohrg's slithering appendage, slug thing, could stretch out, like in Left 4 Dead Lickers, or whatever they were called. I just figured that fit The Mohrg well, or at least that's how I always saw him... It's good, but it isn't great. I'd say a solid Tier 4 the way it's presented. Now for my favorite of all undead!!!


BODAK:
[spoiler]
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple.
Armor Proficiencies: None.
Class Skills: Listen, Spot, Move Silently.
Level 1: +2 Strength, Slam (1d8), Damage Reduction 2/Cold, Iron.
Level 2: +4 Dexterity, +2 Natural Armor, Damage Reduction 4/Cold, Iron.
Level 3: +2 Wisdom, +4 Natural Armor, Damage Reduction 6/Cold, Iron.
Level 4: +2 Charisma, +6 Natural Armor, Damage Reduction 8/Cold, Iron.
Level 5: Immunity To Electricity, +8 Natural Armor, Damage Reduction 10/Cold, Iron.
Level 6: Acid and Fire Resistance 10, Bodak Gaze, Create Spawn.

Slam (Ex) :
Bodak gains a natural attack at level one, that deals 1d8 damage. Critical 20/x2.

Stat Boost (Ex) :
At first level, gains +2 to strength, second level +4 to dexterity, third level +2 to wisdom, and fourth level +2 to charisma.

Damage Reduction (Ex) :
Gains damage reduction 2 (except against cold and iron) at first level, plus an additional two damage reduction every level after that, to a maximum of damage reduction 10 at level five.

Natural Armor (Ex) :
Gains +2 natural armor at second level, plus an additional +2 natural armor every level after that to a maximum of +8 at level five.

Immunity To Electricity (Ex) :
At level five gains immunity to electricity.

Acid and Fire Resistance (Ex) :
At level six, gains acid and fire resistance 10.

Bodak Gaze (Su) :
Range 30ft, as a standard action can make a gaze attack, fortitude saving throw DC 15+charisma modifier, or die.

Create Spawn (Su) :
Any creature slain by bodak gaze, rises as a bodak 24 hours later, (losing all abilities) under your control. You can only control a number of bodak at a time equal to your charisma modifier. Bodak currently under the control of another, cannot use bodak gaze to create spawn.[/spoiler]

Okay, this simply needed to be noted that you couldn't create spawn with bodak gaze, then have them create spawn, and so fourth until you had a zombie apocalypse on your hands. It's still a good ability. Essentially gaining the use of whatever size hit die you killed, and up to X of them to be your bodyguards. Too bad gaze attacks suck... but it's got a high save DC. Mostly you'd think to play a bodak as a defender class. (If such a thing is possible for an undead) With high natural armor and higher damage reduction making it pretty hard to hit. I'd rate this one as Tier four as well. On the lower end, as even though it has a sturdy defense and army capabilities, gaze attacks are just undependable, and he has nothing else really going for him.


Edit: I'm not trying to step on your toes here. If you think I am, I'll gladly edit my post and make my own topic. I just don't think any of the abilities of a monster need to be nerfed when you look at how many levels it would feasibly take to make any use out of them. We just have different views of how to go about balancing them. You say weaken their monster abilities, I say impose multi-classing restrictions.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 08:51:00 AM by Jim Profit »

oslecamo

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Edit: I'm not trying to step on your toes here. If you think I am, I'll gladly edit my post and make my own topic. I just don't think any of the abilities of a monster need to be nerfed when you look at how many levels it would feasibly take to make any use out of them. We just have different views of how to go about balancing them. You say weaken their monster abilities, I say impose multi-classing restrictions.

And I say you're missing most of the points around this project.

I say weaken the abilities that need to be weakened, and then strenghten the abilities that were too weak before.

As for your monster classes, first I must point out that you're not making much sense with their duration. The MM Mohrg is a CR 8 monster with 14 HD, and you turn it a 9 levels class. Then the MM Bodak is a CR 8 with 9 HD, and you turn it into a 6 levels class? Where's exactly the logic behind that? :psyduck

Then you make something that's even worse. The Bodak has no abilties besides bigger numbers for 5 levels. That's awfull. All they can do is hit stuff with their natural and simple weapons for five long levels. A vanilla fighter could have more options than that.

Now check my troll and other giants. Sure they have lower raw stats, but in return they get usefull combat options. They can make special weapons and get higher mobility and whatnot. They're not reduced to charge-fullattack every turn. Your classes are single-trick ponies at best. And altough certain people do like that, my classes are aimed precisely at the people who want multiple tricks.

Catty Nebulart

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Antropormhopic animal

So I was reading through this and it's really sub-par compared to the other classes around here.

It has no proficiencies except for it's natural weapons but it doesn't have any of those by default. :pout
If you compare it with something like the hound archon which get multiple natural weapons, increased speed and weapon proficiencies and outsider type in addition to a second strong save it seems a little unfair. Granted the AA gets better stat bonuses but that doesn't help them be viable from the beginning.

I'd recommend giving it claws and a 40ft base speed at the beginning, as well as simple weapon proficiency. This gives them something somewhat unique (multiple attacks at 1'st level) but not overpowering.

Nature linked is hugely more powerful then any other option at that level, but it also relies on you taking another level. So either increase the other options or decrease the strength of that one, preferably both. I also think that the speed increases are heavily overvalued.

I'd also like to see some options for monk or ToB combinations like nature linked gives to divine casters.

I like the idea, but the execution seems flawed.
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oslecamo

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Antropormhopic animal

So I was reading through this and it's really sub-par compared to the other classes around here.

It has no proficiencies except for it's natural weapons but it doesn't have any of those by default. :pout
If you compare it with something like the hound archon which get multiple natural weapons, increased speed and weapon proficiencies and outsider type in addition to a second strong save it seems a little unfair. Granted the AA gets better stat bonuses but that doesn't help them be viable from the beginning.

I'd recommend giving it claws and a 40ft base speed at the beginning, as well as simple weapon proficiency. This gives them something somewhat unique (multiple attacks at 1'st level) but not overpowering.
The problem with that would be that the AA can get pounce at first level, and 4 natural weapons with pounce is more than I feel confortable with.

However comparing to the Hound Archon is indeed somewhat lacking, so I gave her Simple Weapons proficiency and 40 base speed.

Then improved several of the What has magic done? abilities to make them better picks on the bigger picture, check it out.

Nature linked is hugely more powerful then any other option at that level, but it also relies on you taking another level. So either increase the other options or decrease the strength of that one, preferably both.
I also think that the speed increases are heavily overvalued.
Also improved all of those, let me know what you think now.


I'd also like to see some options for monk or ToB combinations like nature linked gives to divine casters.

I like the idea, but the execution seems flawed.
Synergy for fighter, precision-damage based classes and monk options included. ToB classes are naturally synergetic by themselves, they don't really need any help on that department.

Antropomorphic animal updated, heavily recommended you check it out people!

Catty Nebulart

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Digging the improved AA, especially the changes that make grapple a viable choice. It gives me a build idea... now I just need a tentacle Natural attack... I guess just re-flavor the tail as Tail/Tentacle and take it repeatedly. Does that seem balanced? or Should I be using the hooves as a base for tentacles?

Nature Linked still seems to strong but I think that is the +4 wis bonus. If it was +2 I think it would be reasonable.

Edit: On a second reading of the class, the skills still need to be fixed. It has wilderness Lore which has been folded into survival in 3.5, and it has Hide but not Move Silently. In addition I would give it Knowledge (Nature, Arcana or Dungeoneering), Handle Animal, and Profession (and/or Perform) or something since it's skill list is a bit short for 4+ skills.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 05:33:34 AM by Catty Nebulart »
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b100d_arrowz

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just checking on a few things here, but should the will o wisp have its full cha score added to its AC or just its cha mod?
Quote
The Will-o'-Wisp gains a Deflection Bonus to it's AC equal to it's Cha Score.

Also what happens if the will o wisp reaches epic levels? Does it become immune to epic spells as well if they allow spell resistance? And is it able to dodge attacks 100% of the time?

Also you don't say what happens when the Kyton hits 9HD and uses its poison on creatures normally immune to it, there's a blank
Quote
In adition, at 9HD, a Kython's poison can affect creatures normally immune to poison, but it only deals

And you state in the text of the poison that it improves every 3HD, but then you improve it at the 4th HD of Kython
Quote
Poison:At second level, A kython's bite and tail atacks become poisonous. the save DC against the poison is equal to 10+ 1/2 HD + constitution modifier. The initial and secondary damage are the same(1d4 points of strength damage). This damage increases one die step every 3 HD from now on (1d6 at 5 HD, 1d8 at 8HD, 2d6 at 11 HD, etc)
Quote
Improved poison: At forth level, a Kython's poison becomes more virulent, increasing the strength damage dealt from 1d4 to 1d6.


With the Yuan-ti Anathema you say this for one of its cobra abilities:
Quote
ponents wishing to attack you in any way must suceed on a Will Save with DC 10+1/2 HD+Wis mod or lose their action as they're too scared by your visage.
Is this like a normal boring fear effect where they only do it the first time they attack you, or does it happen every attack

Also with the anathema
Quote
The participant of the ritual must be fully and naturally willing, and will become mindlessly fanatic to the Anathema afterwards, so other Pcs and friendly NPCs can't benefit from this, neither the Anathema can use it to “convert” enemies.
What if the other PCs want to be my mindless thralls  0:)

In the centaur text you say it gets +2 str and +1 con at the end of the 3 levels, but by the table it gets +1 str and con every level.

For the Pyroclastic Dragon under destruction breath you say reduced to ash, I'm assuming this is the save or die effect. What happens if they make their save?

With the Nerra you never say what kind of weapon their shard is, only:
Quote
Shard Blade: Each Nerra owns a personal shard blade, which is a melee slashing weapon that appears to be made from a broken shard of a mirror set on a shiny hilt, but is as strong as any metal weapon. The Nerra gains proficiency with all weapons of the type of his shard blade, and has Weapon Focus for it as a bonus feat.
So could I have the blade be any slashing weapon I choose? Or can I make up wacky stats for it, like 1d12 x4/18-20  :D

Guessing this is an error, but in the Kaorti you have a prerequisite listed as d8 HD.


Should the Ghaele Eladrin globe of invulnerability read [Ghaele Eladrin level/2] - 3, or [character level/2]-3 because otherwise at level 12 the Ghaele Eladrin and its allies are immune to 9th level spells  :bigeye
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 09:06:42 AM by b100d_arrowz »
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oslecamo

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Digging the improved AA, especially the changes that make grapple a viable choice. It gives me a build idea... now I just need a tentacle Natural attack... I guess just re-flavor the tail as Tail/Tentacle and take it repeatedly. Does that seem balanced? or Should I be using the hooves as a base for tentacles?
You cannot take the options more than once unless noticed otherwise. But added a  tentacle option that can be taken multiple times, since it seems fiting for the AA.

Nature Linked still seems to strong but I think that is the +4 wis bonus. If it was +2 I think it would be reasonable.
I made it +4 because assuming a starting 10 Wis you'll need that bonus to be able to cast your 4th level divine spells. I don't want to force a starting AA to invest in wisdom right away that won't do much for six levels.

Anyone else has opinions on this matter?


Edit: On a second reading of the class, the skills still need to be fixed. It has wilderness Lore which has been folded into survival in 3.5, and it has Hide but not Move Silently. In addition I would give it Knowledge (Nature, Arcana or Dungeoneering), Handle Animal, and Profession (and/or Perform) or something since it's skill list is a bit short for 4+ skills.
Put on Survival, Move Silently and Knowledge(Nature or Duneoneering). Handle Animal can be obtained trough Fearsome ability. I don't see Arcana, Profession or Perform fiting for the AA. That leaves it with 13 class skills wich I believe is already enough.

just checking on a few things here, but should the will o wisp have its full cha score added to its AC or just its cha mod?
Quote
The Will-o'-Wisp gains a Deflection Bonus to it's AC equal to it's Cha Score.

Also what happens if the will o wisp reaches epic levels? Does it become immune to epic spells as well if they allow spell resistance? And is it able to dodge attacks 100% of the time?
Yeah that should be cha mod. Capped miss chance at 90%. And hell yeah immunity to epic spells that allow SR.

Also you don't say what happens when the Kyton hits 9HD and uses its poison on creatures normally immune to it, there's a blank
Quote
In adition, at 9HD, a Kython's poison can affect creatures normally immune to poison, but it only deals

And you state in the text of the poison that it improves every 3HD, but then you improve it at the 4th HD of Kython
Quote
Poison:At second level, A kython's bite and tail atacks become poisonous. the save DC against the poison is equal to 10+ 1/2 HD + constitution modifier. The initial and secondary damage are the same(1d4 points of strength damage). This damage increases one die step every 3 HD from now on (1d6 at 5 HD, 1d8 at 8HD, 2d6 at 11 HD, etc)
Quote
Improved poison: At forth level, a Kython's poison becomes more virulent, increasing the strength damage dealt from 1d4 to 1d6.
That should've been half damage against immune. Also removed improved poison, that was a leftover from an earlier version.

With the Yuan-ti Anathema you say this for one of its cobra abilities:
Quote
ponents wishing to attack you in any way must suceed on a Will Save with DC 10+1/2 HD+Wis mod or lose their action as they're too scared by your visage.
Is this like a normal boring fear effect where they only do it the first time they attack you, or does it happen every attack
Well since I don't put any clause that it only works once, it happes every attack.

Also with the anathema
Quote
The participant of the ritual must be fully and naturally willing, and will become mindlessly fanatic to the Anathema afterwards, so other Pcs and friendly NPCs can't benefit from this, neither the Anathema can use it to “convert” enemies.
What if the other PCs want to be my mindless thralls  0:)
They're still not geting an easy free level. :p

In the centaur text you say it gets +2 str and +1 con at the end of the 3 levels, but by the table it gets +1 str and con every level.
Fixed table.

For the Pyroclastic Dragon under destruction breath you say reduced to ash, I'm assuming this is the save or die effect. What happens if they make their save?
First I tought "they just shrug it off", but then decided it was kinda boring so I added 1d8 damage per HD on a sucessfull save.

With the Nerra you never say what kind of weapon their shard is, only:
Quote
Shard Blade: Each Nerra owns a personal shard blade, which is a melee slashing weapon that appears to be made from a broken shard of a mirror set on a shiny hilt, but is as strong as any metal weapon. The Nerra gains proficiency with all weapons of the type of his shard blade, and has Weapon Focus for it as a bonus feat.
So could I have the blade be any slashing weapon I choose? Or can I make up wacky stats for it, like 1d12 x4/18-20  :D
It has the stats of one already existing melee slashing weapon of your choice.

Guessing this is an error, but in the Kaorti you have a prerequisite listed as d8 HD.
Yeah that was another error.

Should the Ghaele Eladrin globe of invulnerability read [Ghaele Eladrin level/2] - 3, or [character level/2]-3 because otherwise at level 12 the Ghaele Eladrin and its allies are immune to 9th level spells  :bigeye
Damn that slipped trough me as well. Fixed.

Thank you very much for pointing all of those out!

b100d_arrowz

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Quote
Yeah that should be cha mod. Capped miss chance at 90%. And hell yeah immunity to epic spells that allow SR.
Dangit I was hoping to supermax cha and combine with 150% miss chance  :P Guess 90% and cha mod will have to do  :D And excellent  :plotting
Quote
Well since I don't put any clause that it only works once, it happes every attack.
The power of fear  :smirk thanks for clearing that up
Quote
Thank you very much for pointing all of those out!
No problem  :D Gotta help you out if there's any problems seeing as my players have fallen in love with these  :D


and just a cosmetic word issue, you say the imp can change into a mudane creature to avoid attracting attention, I'm not sure a gargantuan spider is mundane  :P

You didn't do this monster, but on the mezzoloth, under the SLAs it doesn't give uses per day individually, just up on the table. And it could be taken that you could only use the lesser 1/day, moderate 2/day, and greater 3/day. With no uses given for the SLAs gained after all levels in the class have been taken. The restriction of needing Greater Muzzoloth magic is only on cloudkill by the text, and should teleport be replaced by greater teleport instead of it having both? The Nycoloth right after has a clearer table and chart in regards to the SLAs, but the order of abilities granted is out of order. Lists the abilities gained in the order of: 8, 6, 5, 7, 11, 9, 13

Just a not on the displacer beast you mention it gains +1 cha at level 3, but then don't list the cha bonus in the ending totals, and the +1 to cha is not on the chart.

With the hell hound's savage ability:
Quote
Savage: When a third level hell hound drops an opponent in melee(usually by reducing it to negative hit points or tripping it) the hell hound can tear into the downed enemy, dealing the same damage as its bite attack, including fire damage.
is this done as a free action in response to an enemy dropping, or as an extra attack like the one granted by improved trip or an attack of opportunity?

So the earth elemental doesn't have to stay at the nice big inconvenient huge size all the time? That's actually pretty cool. On the earth asunder move, should it be a reflex save instead of a balance check? I know thematically the balance makes sense, but with only a few classes ever getting balance and fewer still taking enough ranks to make it matter, this becomes almost a you lose check, including stunning with no save. Player's would probably be happier with a reflex save to try and avoid, with the conditional modifiers being placed on depending on how hard you failed. There is no listed save for earth's embrace, nor is it stated that the creature runs out of air, although that should be assumed. Finally there is no stated method of getting free, I'm assuming a Freedom spell could do it, but needing a 9th level spell for a 10th Hit Die ability seems a bit overpowered.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 10:52:15 PM by b100d_arrowz »
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oslecamo

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Mezzoloth


[Spoiler]HD: d8

LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial
1st
+1
+2
+0
+2
Mezzoloth Body, Anger, Darkness
2nd
+2
+3
+0
+3
Yuguloth, Produce Flame, +1 Str
3rd
+3
+3
+1
+3
Yuguloth Carapace, Cause Fear, +1 Cha
4th
+4
+4
+1
+4
See Invisibility, Spite, +1 Str
5th
+5
+4
+1
+4
Dispel Magic, Hate, +1 Cha
6th
+6/+1
+5
+2
+5
Cloudkill, teleport

Proficiencies
The mezzoloth has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor.

Skill Points: 6+Int mod, quadruple at first level.
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise , Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device  

Features:


Mezzoloth Body: The Mezzoloth loses all previous racial and gains the outsider traits (Darkvision 60ft, no need to eat or sleep). It is a medium sized outsider with a natural armor bonus equal to its con modifier, and two claw attacks that deal 1d4+str damage each. It has a land speed of 40ft per round.

Anger: At 1st level, a number of times per day equal to its Cha mod, the Mezzoloth may ignore all DR from oponents for 1 round as a swift action.

Yugoloth Magic: At levels indicated the Mezzoloth gains some SLAs, each useable a certain number of times per day. DCs are 10+1/2HD+Cha mod.

1-Darkness 1/day per HD.
2-Produce Flame 1/day per HD. No cap to bonus damage.
3-Cause Fear 1/day per 3 HD. No HD limit.
4-See Invisibility 1/day per 2 HD.
5-Dispel Magic 1/day per 2 HD. At 11 HD the dispel magic upgrades to greater dispel magic.
6-Cloudkill and teleport 1/day per 6 HD. At 13 HD the teleport upgrades to greater teleport.

Oponents with the same amount or less HD that the Mezzoloth who fail their saves against the cloudkill die instantly. Oponents with half or less HD than the Mezzoloth die whitout save. At 12 HD even oponents immune to cloudkill effects can be affected, but they gain a +5 bonus on their saves.
 
Ability Bonus:At levels 2 and 4 the Mezzoloth gains a +1 bonus to its strength score, and +1 to Cha at levels 3 and 5, for a total of +2 Str and +2 Cha at 6th level.

Yugoloth: At 2nd level the Mezzoloth gains a bonus on saves against poison and resistance to acid equal to its HD, and resistance to fire, cold & electricity equal to half HD. It also gains telepathy out to 10 feet per HD.

It also gains the evil subtype, and its natural attacks and any weapon it wields count as evil aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Yuguloth Carapace:At 3rd level the Mezzoloth gains spell resistance equal to 11+HD and DR/good equal to half its HD. It may drop or rise its SR as a free action at any time as a free action even if it isn't its turn.

Spite:
At 4th level, a number of times per day equal to its Cha mod, the Mezzoloth may "mark" one oponent that somehow harmed it as an immediate action. The next attack the Mezzoloth makes against that oponent has a bonus to attack and damage equal to its Cha mod (on the case of a physical attack) or the DC and CL increased by 1 (in case of magic). If the enemy manages to escape before the Mezzoloth strikes it again, the Spite remains.

Hate:At 5th level, a number of times per day equal to its Cha mod, the Mezzoloth may gain pounce for 1 round and heal an amount of HP equal to its HD as a swift action.
[/Spoiler]

Comments
[Spoiler]
Overhaul of the mezzoloth, done somewhat too long ago. Reduced to 6 levels as the Mezzoloth is CR 6, re-organized abilities, put some stuff to fill in dead levels.

Old one here.

[/Spoiler]

Contributed by Frog Dragon from GITP