Author Topic: new dm, new player, new cleric.  (Read 2779 times)

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heymejack

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new dm, new player, new cleric.
« on: September 25, 2010, 06:01:27 PM »
I've played quite a bit, and know a little bit about optimization (i shouldn't take monkey grip, right?), and now I'm DMing.  we're just getting going, so we're adding and losing players almost every session, but the core 2 has turned out to be

katie (girlfriend) - a 1st level pixie rogue who sneak attacks with thrown daggers
mark (colleague) - a 6th level goliath barb/fighter with a spiked chain

there have been others that have come a few times and now can't, or were coming but don't like my play style (no magic mart), but it looks like this new guy

john (friend of mark) - 5th level dwarven cleric

it looks like this new guy john is gonna be showing up regularly too, and I want to make sure he has fun.  he wants to tank/heal.  a lot of this is mark's influence, mark thinks we 'need' a healer (we don't, the pixie has UMD and no party 'needs' a healer) and more melee capability, and john's into the idea, so whatever.  he wants to play a cleric that tanks and heals.  and he likes the idea of two-handing a BIG hammer.  i looked it up real quick online and found some stats for a greathammer, 1d12 and a 19-20 x4 crit?  seems a little a little crazy, but whatever.  i let him take the war domain and say his god (a mysterious and unnamed dwarven god of stereotypes) favors the greathammer, so he wouldn't have to waste feats.  This isn't set in stone, if there is some cooler/better/more reasonable way to go about it, it isn't too late

i built a character for him real quick for the first session, but i just don't know how to make a good cleric.  since i'm the dm, i don't think he'll have trouble getting permission to rebuild from scratch. 

so, to sum up, i need help with a dwarven cleric for melee combat that twohands a big hammer and has the ability to heal.  what feats?  what spells?  what skills?  he's going to ding lvl 6 during the next game, so include that please

help?  thank you. 

(i already put this up over in the gm gameology board, but i think this more the correct board for my question.  let me know if i'm wrong.  thanks again. 

dna1

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2010, 06:18:26 PM »
this is the right spot!

probably most of the answers your going to get will be something like... cloistered cleric/ dmm etc etc. since hes new I would suggest just building him something simple..
I would post you a build but despise clerics.  :fo  (druids do it better  :P )

the main question is what books do you use?




heres a link to the cleric handbook
 http://web.archive.org/web/20080221002212/forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9260896#post9260896
thats something i was looking at, heres the actual link:  http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0
and you might find this one useful as well  :D

link to low level builds compilation  
 http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1444.0
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 12:49:22 AM by dna1 »
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saethone

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2010, 06:29:46 PM »
the cleric handbook sums it all up pretty well :P

it's all about the divine metamagic persists - and throw him a wand or something to cover the cures but be sure to express to him its generally not something you want to be doing during the battle :P

Novabomb

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2010, 06:33:12 PM »
The weapon in question i believe was errataed because it was a misprint.
It is 20-4x
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dna1

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2010, 06:35:45 PM »
the best hammer is a minotaur great hammer iirc
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carnivore

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2010, 09:08:23 PM »

heymejack

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2010, 12:09:14 AM »
everything but the tomes, as long as it wotc. 

i do want to keep his build as simple as possible, since he's so new.  you think i should bother with things like DMM persist, or is that a bit much for a noob?  he's got that and power attack right now, because those are the ones that came to mind when i was busting out a quick build. 
 
are there ways to make a good, simple, fighting cleric without messing around with DMM?

jameswilliamogle

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 07:55:19 PM »
Its not too much at all!  I actually think it makes things easier.  Lets you have static bonuses instead of having to recalculate everything every time you cast a spell.

Really, the simplest build is to play a Cleric 20, and take Power Attack, Extend, Persistant spell, DMM: Persistant, and Extra Turning a couple of times, and start with a 14 to 16 Cha.  Effective enough, though not the absolute "best" build.  Try to get a Nightstick (from Libris Mortis), and an item of +X on Cha for more turns.  They only have 2-3 spells persisted, usually, and the ones that are really worth it are Divine Power and Righteous Might, and then after that its just all bonus (Animal domain gets Shapechange, though, which is pretty awesome).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 08:00:14 PM by jameswilliamogle »

heymejack

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2010, 04:17:26 AM »
honestly i think the problem is that i just don't understand how they work.

take Power Attack, Extend, Persistant spell, DMM: Persistant, and Extra Turning
a couple of times

i was under the impression that taking dmm: persistant was all you needed to do to persist a spell for 24 hours.  but you're saying you have to take persistent spell first?  but then you're taking extend but not dmm: extend? 

i think it should be obvious to anyone reading that last paragraph that I have no idea what the fuck is going on.

somebody want to enlighten me?


Soda

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2010, 04:24:10 AM »
Persistent spell is a prerequisite for DMM: Persist, and extend spell is a prerequisite for that.

heymejack

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2010, 04:59:21 AM »
well that helps a lot. at least, I understand it now.  we'll see if he's into it once i explain it to him.  any other ideas for paths he could take?  maybe something that is a little less of a rules trick, i get the impression both he and mark are disinterested in powergaming at all.  funny, because i'd certainly allow it if that's what he was after, but my impression is that he won't like it. 

who thinks he'd be better off using a regular (as in all clerics can use it) hammer and taking some other domain instead of war?  his other domain is travel.  because he's a dwarf in full plate. 

Solo

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2010, 05:05:47 AM »
I'd go for the beer domain.

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Saxony

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2010, 05:56:10 AM »
Persistent spell is a prerequisite for DMM: Persist, and extend spell is a prerequisite for that.
... Not clear wording here.

Let me be super duper over detailed.

Extend Spell is required for Persistent Spell. Persistent Spell is Extend spell on steroids, so this makes sense.
Persistent Spell is required for Divine Meta Magic: Persistent Spell. Divine Meta Magic lets you use a Meta Magic feat better than normal. You can't use a meta magic feat better than normal unless you have that meta magic feat initially. So this makes sense.

Divine Meta Magic lets you use Meta Magic feats for free... You don't have to trade higher level spells for lower level ones which have been buffed. Using Meta Magic feats without some way to make them free is generally considered very stupid, because higher level spells are generally so much better than lower level spells that Meta Magic feats cannot help the lower level spells compete.

The catch: Divine Meta Magic costs Turning Undead attempts.

Why you don't care: You're trading nothing in return for a lot. Turn Undead sucks major ass. Undead enemies are very rare unless you're playing in an campaign with an almost exclusive focus on them. Free meta magic is more powerful. In the case of Persistent Spell, it is much more powerful.

Clerics get (3 + their Charisma modifier) Turn Undead attempts per day, if I recall correctly. Most Clerics don't have a monster charisma, so 16 Charisma or 14 or less. We'll say they get a +3 Charisma modifier. That's only 6 Turn Undead attempts per day. Let's say you want to use Empower Spell with Divine Meta Magic. Empower Spell usually bumps a spell up two spell levels. Divine Meta Magic costs however many spell levels you would normally bump up a spell +1. So using Divine Meta Magic: Empower Spell would cost 3 Turn Undead Attempts, meaning you can use it exactly twice per day.

That's not very helpful. We want to use a Meta Magic feat which is very cost efficient. Persistent Spell in this case is very efficient. It gets around wasting a lot of Turn Undead attempts on just one spell by making that spell last all day.

But Persistent Spell costs a lot of Turn Undead attempts. If you follow the Errata (I wouldn't suggest following obscure Errata at all; just go off what you have in your books), it costs a +6 spell level adjustment. If you just read it out of Complete Arcane, it's just +4 spell level adjustment. Either way, normal clerics would only be allowed one or zero use of Divine Meta Magic: Persistent spell each day.

This is where Extra Turning comes in. +4 Turn Undead attempts per day helps out a lot. More Persistent Spell'd spells is good. Worth a feat even.

And then there are methods of gaining more Turn XYZ attempts per day to fuel Divine feats. Turn Vermin from Drow of the Underdark works for Divine feats. Then getting Turn Dragons from Dragon Magic. Then getting Turn Undead from a Cleric prestige class (Like Inquisitor from Complete Divine). You can only use the Turn XYZ pools which aren't Turn Undead that specify they work for fueling Divine Feats. Otherwise they don't because Divine Feats usually only work for Turn Undead.

So getting the Fire, Earth, Water, or Air domains from the PHB won't give you more Divine feat uses per day, sadly.

It should be noted Extra Turning grants +4 Turn XYZ attempts to ALL Turn XYZ pools. If you have Turn Vermin and Turn Undead, you get +8 Turning attempts. If you have 3 pools of Turn XYZ, you get +12 Turning attempts. If you have a lot of Turn XYZ pools, taking Extra Turning is a very good idea.
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BruceLeeroy

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2010, 06:20:07 AM »
Whew. For a simple build cleric, I'd ditch DMM: Persist. It's not worth it until you hit 7th level when you get Divine Power, and it turns Clerics into raging warbeasts of doom when you do get it. If your players aren't interested in powergaming, then don't use DMM: Persist. It is the Poster Child of Powergaming where Clerics are concerned. Everyone will recommend it endlessly because it is the most optimal solution, but it will make your other players feel small in the pants once this player gets a feel for his character and starts laying out the smackdown.

I'd go for some of the Devotion feats out of Complete Champion. Law Devotion is nice, as is Travel Devotion. Both would benefit a tank/healer (by being able to stay alive and also get to your ally that needs to be healed).

Also:

Invigorating Spell (Dragon Magazine #311)
You unlock ancient methods of manipulating divine healing energy. Your eyes turn white while you are casting an invigorating spell.
       This template can be added to any spell that heals hit point damage. In addition to healing damage normally, an invigorating spell can remove any or all of the following conditions affecting the target(s): dazed, exhausted, fatigued, sickened, and stunned. You specify which conditions are are to be removed when you cast the spell.
       Cost: Verbal component (recitation of an ancient healing incantation) that cannot be modified by a feat or special ability.

Imbued Healing (Complete Champion)

and the Pool of Healing ACF (Complete Champion p47) is great for any cleric who hasn't already prestiged out. In fact, I'd say it's worth staying a Cleric until 7th for a dedicated healer.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 03:53:45 PM by BruceLeeroy »

carnivore

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2010, 02:10:56 PM »
try this:

Earth Dwarf(+2 Str,+2 Con,-2 Dex,-2 Cha)

Cloistered Cleric 6

heymejack

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2010, 05:09:08 PM »
all these things help a lot. 

saxony, i definitely feel like i understand the whole thing now.

bruceleeroy, i think that travel devotion is almost certainly what's gonna end up happening.  his lack of speed was an issue in the first game we played, so this is an excellent solution to both problems.

carnivore: sweet build.  we don't use flaws, although i'm sure we will if the new guys start getting into optimizing.  i will see what he thinks about the earth dwarf, and look into those feats, since, again, he will be leveling very soon anyway. 

thanks to all. 

jameswilliamogle

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 07:07:06 PM »
Oh, one other thing: Divine Metamagic only requires the cleric to have the feat due to the errata to complete divine.  The book printing definitely DOES NOT require you to have the feat you picked.  So if you get confused on the prerequisites not listing it, this is why.

Benly

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Re: new dm, new player, new cleric.
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2010, 08:03:05 PM »
For games where DMM: Persist is too much, DMM: Quicken can be pretty good. Quicken is another metamagic where a few free shots per day can be a lifesaver, it doesn't cause you to outfighter the fighter and outrogue the rogue, and it adds flexibility.

Also, don't get too much of a bug about the idea of healing. There is a huge over-backlash against the idea of healing on a cleric in the optimizer community, because of the idea that it goes with clerics being healbots. While it's important to bear in mind that healing is just one tool in the cleric toolbox, it's still a decent one that has its place, especially at low levels, and double-especially since a cleric doesn't have to devote any particular effort to being reasonably good at it.

In particular for a new player, cleric spontaneous heals are very nice while you're getting used to the overwhelming variety of spell options you have: a cleric has the luxury of memorizing whatever spells seem interesting, and any that don't turn out to be useful can be burned for cures to get some utility out of them and replaced with something better the next day. As long as he's aware of this option, this is a great way for a new player to evolve a spell lineup that works for him.