Author Topic: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?  (Read 4655 times)

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Endarire

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Let's assume official 3.5 material is allowed as-is, except for Persistent Spell, Lyric Spell, and Divine Metamagic.  How does the game change?
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Zaxter

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2010, 06:03:10 PM »
Incantatrixes and Spelldancers suddenly start seeing a lot more play. You seem to be wondering how the game changes without the main tricks for free metamagic, so why not change the question to "how does the game change if free metamagic is removed?"

Rebel7284

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2010, 06:03:18 PM »
Clerics are no longer better tanks than a druid?  Lyric spell is not noticed.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2010, 06:04:15 PM »
Let's assume official 3.5 material is allowed as-is, except for Persistent Spell, Lyric Spell, and Divine Metamagic.  How does the game change?
Well clerics are slightly less uber, as is anyone else relying on loads of persistent buffs (other than clerics, that's mostly Incantatrixes and people in parties with them). Casters who want to melee (or do archery, to a lesser extent) will once again care about the BAB progression of their PrCs, and might actually consider dipping into a full BAB base class to start out. That's about it.

Incantatrixes and Spelldancers suddenly start seeing a lot more play. You seem to be wondering how the game changes without the main tricks for free metamagic, so why not change the question to "how does the game change if free metamagic is removed?"
He said without Persistent Spell, also.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2010, 06:11:21 PM »
basically no one takes metamagic feats unless they are forced to as a pre-req.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2010, 06:20:19 PM »
basically no one takes metamagic feats unless they are forced to as a pre-req.
Eh, Sculpt and Invisible Spell would still see use, and Extend might see some (although the MM rods are so cheap... maybe not).
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carnivore

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2010, 06:36:38 PM »
for me ... very little, i try to avoid using Persistant spell .. also i dont usually use DMM either, and never use Lyric Spell

 :D

Nunkuruji

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 06:39:27 PM »
Game slows down in between encounters as the party figures out which wands and spells to burn for hp recovery, lamenting their lost persistent mass lesser vigor.

carnivore

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 06:45:23 PM »
it does make people realize the consequences for just charging in and attacking everything they see, without any Planning or forethought.
it also makes them value expendable resources(Spells) more and use them more efficiently

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Epimetheus

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 06:51:52 PM »
The game would be a normal one. So no changes. I don't think many people actually use those feats in real games.

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 06:57:01 PM »
The game would be a normal one. So no changes. I don't think many people actually use those feats in real games.
Divine Metamagic I've seen get used a lot.  Persist Spell may see a couple of niche uses without DMM or something similar.  Lyric spell I've never seen used, though, so its exclusion would barely affect the game.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 06:59:24 PM »
The game would be a normal one. So no changes. I don't think many people actually use those feats in real games.
I see DMM, persist, and Incantrix get used. I'm sure a lot of people here do.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 06:59:46 PM »
We frequently use DMM reach spell so our cleric doesn't have to heal from the middle of combat. My group plays more stereotypical archetypes though.
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Epimetheus

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2010, 07:04:27 PM »
Hm, maybe it's just the groups I play with then... :P

Widow

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2010, 07:59:51 PM »
It depends on your perspective I guess.  From an academic stand point you will just see more of other powerful builds.  As already mentioned the incantrix and dweomerkeeper would get a boost in play, along with arcane thesis, easy metamagic, and practical metamagic (more kobolds, like we needed a reason for more kobolds) for metamagic focused builds.  Quite a few of the ex cleric builds would transition over into druids with planar shepord to allow fast casting.  There would also be more warweaver builds for whole party buffing on the fly.  Clerics also would end up with alot more feats to select.  And on the whole, magic would shift from buffing to more blasting builds for those that don't want to try to optimize the nerfed buffing. 

As for turn undead, it would not get used.  The problem with using turn attempts to actually turn stuff is that hardly any PrC's advance your ability to turn.  Also as you move into higher levels, +1 CR is not 1 or 2 HD usually, so you cannot turn anything anyway without heavy optimization.  So I would suspect domain devotion feats might pick up some of the slack in feat selection, but not much.

If on the other hand this is a DM nerf to bring things under control, it will only lead to greater frustration.  Something else will pop up on the DM radar that he will not like, just after he thought he got everything fixed.  I have seen this happen and it just leads to a long list of DM nerfs and frustrated players that keep having to alter their characters.  It is fine if each new game brings an additional nerf, but tough if instituted mid game (especially when it happens more than once).

jameswilliamogle

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2010, 09:48:30 PM »
Some changes I've seen in this environment: people stop taking 20 in dungeons.  Since durations are down to minutes per level, there's a lot more running through dungeons.

Elf-type Trapfinders become quite a bit more useful, for the free search on secret doors (plus that feat in Dungeonscape that extends it to traps really gains value).  Anything that lets characters bypass the amount of time to do something is much better.  Detect Magic's value skyrockets, as does Detect Evil, Detect Thoughts, etc. as they really speed up searching / avoiding bad shit.

I've never seen Lyric Spell in play, and I've never seen Persistant without DMM.

The style is similar in mid-level play with phrenic characters.

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 12:06:39 AM »
Let's assume official 3.5 material is allowed as-is, except for Persistent Spell, Lyric Spell, and Divine Metamagic.  How does the game change?

Spellcasters have less power options and thus become less powerful. Spellcasters still have more power options than non-Spellcasters and are thus still more powerful than non-Spellcasters.

Seems pretty obvious.
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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2010, 12:13:00 AM »
You never see Lyric spell because bards are so heavily discriminated against, despite their quiet excellence among T3 classes.

snakeman830

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2010, 12:20:18 AM »
You never see Lyric spell because bards are so heavily discriminated against, despite their quiet excellence among T3 classes.
And the fact that Lyric spell generally isn't that useful, since anything you can cast with Lyric Spell you can cast normally.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: How does the game change without Persistent Spell, DMM, and Lyric Spell?
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2010, 01:14:45 AM »
Incantatrixes and Spelldancers suddenly start seeing a lot more play. You seem to be wondering how the game changes without the main tricks for free metamagic, so why not change the question to "how does the game change if free metamagic is removed?"

+1

pretty much everyone in my group isnt experienced enough to create a optimized character. let alone dmm/persistent tricks.

i wanted to try and answer this but i cant because no ones used them in my group yet   :D
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