Author Topic: My campaign's headed towards a TPK  (Read 5730 times)

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Radijs

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My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« on: June 30, 2008, 01:38:36 PM »
Maybe its for the better, maybe not but nevertheless I suspect that by the end of the next session my campaign will be stone-dead. I can't help but feel that it will be a bit of a pity, mostly because its my first campaign ever that has now been running for a good three or four years.

The campaign has become fairly epic though the players are currently bobbing around level 12 and 13. They are out to save the world and so far they have done fairly well for themselves. After they broke through a major plot twist they've been thinking about new ways to defeat the evil demon-posessed king thats threatening their home and decided to use a hint I dropped quite some time ago. It involved a bit of homebrew history around the Reth Dekala devil in the Tome of Battle. To put it bluntly: They know where the contract is that binds the Reth Dekala and should they destroy the contract physically this devilish subrace will probably be very thankful and they'd be willing to help the PC's in their fight.

So the PC's head to Baator and through some clumsyness manage to infiltrate the Iron Fortress where the contract is kept. This is how it happened:
First they observed the fortress while it was under siege by a load of demons. One PC tried to sneak in, when it failed and he had to run the rest of the party abandoned him to his fate.
Though they have the cash, or otherwise the means to get their hands on the required cash they don't even discuss raising him. The player already pulls out a fresh sheet and ten minutes later I'm asked to find a way to introduce his new character. Annoying but its a symptom of a condition which has been growing in this group of players. But more of that later.

Anyway, the game begins to slump a little. None of em seems to want to take any kind of risk in order to advance their goals. But in the end, they go and see if they can hire themselves out as mercenaries to liberate the fortress. They search for a while and manage to do so, they get stiffed on their pay but the fortress is free and they manage to talk to a few Reth Dekalan devils and psych them up about the help they want from them, carefully avoiding the subject of the contract they are here to destroy. The Reth Dekalan are interested and forward the news up to their master (Bel) who sends a messenger to negotiate a contract. After all, nothing's free in Baator.
The price asked is Exhorbitantly high. The souls of every man or woman born after the war is won for fifteen generations in the nation(s) the PC's liberate or conquer. Now most of the Players have the word 'good' on their character sheet so I expected them to outright refuse the offer but they negotiated for a bit until the player with a fresh character gives the in your face no. Its a deal tainted with evil etc. etc.
In the end they tell the messenger they want to think about it for a while. The messenger agrees and the PC's are escorted from the Fortress and now the leader of the group (Arumadd) decides to be bold. After casting a linked communication spell on the party the wizard casts a greater blink on Arumadd and he descends down into the soil to look for underground passages.
He sinks three levels until he emerges in what appears to be a jungle. By then the blink spell wears out and he's stuck down there with no way out. (I still don't know what posessed him to do it. Maybe he thought that the ward against teleportation would not encompass the basement.)
So he begins to explore and after a while he is found by an old gardener who quickly reveals himself to be a green dragon and said dragon subtly hints that Arumadd won't be leaving again.
The rest of the party is still listening in through the spell and realizes that time's short.
So after taking some cover the Wizard summons a few celestial badgers to dig down a tunnel for them to go down to the dragon's lair as well.
They arrive in time and battle the dragon. At 2 HP the dragon surrenders and begins to parlay for his life giving up information and aid in return. The new character apparently doesn't want to listen and without warning lops the dragon's head off.
Now another player declares that his character is going to attack the 'killer'.

So to summarize: The party is in the depths of a devil-occupied fortress, have fought with a huge green dragon (loudly) and have expended most of their immediate means (spells, potions, Hit Points etc.) and they are starting to in-fight. All in all a bad scenario for them.

Earlier on I made a mention of a condition that has developed amongst several members in my party. Its a bit of an optimizing syndrome where the players are beginning to think of the game more as a strategy simulation then a roleplaying game.
This came to my attention when one player, who had to retire his former character due to conflicts of interest and who still plays very character-oriented began to resist buff spells being cast on him by the other party members. This annoyed two players who where casting said spells and during a break in play they asked him why.
Now I'll mention that the annoyance of the PC's was both in- and out out of character. Which rubbed the player who was refusing the spells a bit the wrong way.
Anyway, the player explains to the other two that his actions have stemmed from in-character reasons. Which where the act of treason regarding the party's rogue, the way his character was insulted when Arumadd introduced the party to someone he (and several other members) where introduced as 'the rest who do not matter' and several other reasons which I do not recall at the moment. Upon asking them if they should not be doing the same they responded: "But that wouldn't be an optimized action."

I'm a bit at a loss as to what would be the best course of action. But then again I'm not entirely sure if I want to end the campaign, keep it the way it is or try and bring the roleplaying element back in there. And I don't really know what my players want.
My campaign resumes in 3 weeks time, I'll ask them before that time what they want from my game.
What part of Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn don't you understand?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 01:46:05 PM »
There is no saving throw for stupidity. Roll the dice openly.
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Omen of Peace

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 06:35:22 PM »
Good luck... is all I can say.
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AndyJames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2008, 08:50:14 PM »
Well, the simple answer is for the other team members NOT to waste time and resources casting spells on the guy who is resisting the spells (which, I assume, has some form of SR). And if they are annoyed with him enough, they may just leave him in the lurch when things start going from bad to worse. An unbuffed melee guy in a high(er) level campaign is usually called "roadkill". Roll the dice openly and let things lie as they fall. Maybe if the melee guy dies a horrible death, he might reconsider his "roleplaying".

By the way, resisting spells meant to KEEP ONE ALIVE just because one is annoyed is not "roleplaying". It is stupidity. Darwinism should follow.

nemafow

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2008, 09:58:14 PM »
You obviously care much for your campaign (most DM's do.. not all though) so I think you should take some lengths to save it and finish it correctly.

I honestly think next session you should bring your concerns up with the group and say what the fuck is happening. It's a game, or isn't it one to you guys anymore? Find out if they honestly care about the campaign or if they are along with the ride. If they honestly care, point out what their actions are doing to the roleplaying element to the game and if they care, how about not running it into the ground.

If they don't care, well maybe you should stop it right now and maybe resume it at another time, when their attitudes have changed, if they do. A frustrated DM, and uncooperative players isn't a good mix for a game. It's better to resume it later once everyone can have a think about whats happened. Because that is exactly what would happen if you say lets have 3 or 4 months off and come back to it. They will miss the campaign and think about all they have done and their possibilities.

One thing I hate about situations like this, the DM puts so much effort into making a compelling and interesting campaign/story for the players to play in, and its fine if one or two players are not 100% intrigued the whole time, but they should not ruin it for everyone else, or the DM.

Radijs

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2008, 06:55:14 AM »
It makes sense for the character to be suspicious. He has no ranks in spellcraft so is unable to recongize the spell used on him. He's seen the party spellcasters betray and leave one of their companions for dead. Its not a smart thing yes. But thinking from the perspective of the character I can understand why he does it.

Yes I care a lot for this campaign. Its one of the reasons why its been going on so long.
I spoke to one of the players and he made one problem clear to me. Two of the party members do not have a real connection with the main storyline. I think that a part of the eventual solution.
Another part is that the players don't really feel motivated somehow to invest in a character bio or backstory. Like I said in my OP: The player who died had a new character roughly ready in 10 minutes. No bio and a haphazard reason why he was there to acutally look for the party.

What part of Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn don't you understand?

AfterCrescent

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 07:26:34 AM »
Is this a group of players that just gather like at a gaming store or somewhere or are these players your friends?
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AndyJames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 07:46:19 AM »
It makes sense for the character to be suspicious. He has no ranks in spellcraft so is unable to recongize the spell used on him. He's seen the party spellcasters betray and leave one of their companions for dead. Its not a smart thing yes. But thinking from the perspective of the character I can understand why he does it.

Yes I care a lot for this campaign. Its one of the reasons why its been going on so long.
I spoke to one of the players and he made one problem clear to me. Two of the party members do not have a real connection with the main storyline. I think that a part of the eventual solution.
Another part is that the players don't really feel motivated somehow to invest in a character bio or backstory. Like I said in my OP: The player who died had a new character roughly ready in 10 minutes. No bio and a haphazard reason why he was there to acutally look for the party.
OK. First things first:

Yes, his CHARACTER would not be able to recognise it. So, he has two choices: let it slide FOR THE SAKE OF THE GAME and take the spell, or be a douche and chant "I am ROLEplaying, not ROLLplaying" ad nauseum. Either way, I don't see why YOU as the DM should pull your punches. If he dies because of HIS decision, then too bad. He'll just have to live with it and learn to suspend disbelief just long enough for the sake of the game.

As for a new character, I am afraid that, as DM, you have the major responsibility to integrate him into the game. If he does not come up with a good reason, is it because he can't be bothered (which does seem to be the case here, judging from the other parts of your post) or because he doesn't want to screw up your setting and storyline? Either way, you are the one that needs to discuss it with him and help flesh out his background so that it doesn't conflict with your established setting. It can be as simple as "You want an Indianna Jones style character? Well, there is a university in city X, him coming from there OK? Yes? Cool. So, maybe he was in the area looking for some relics and stumble on these guys and think group better than alone for survival rate. Cool with that? Sweet! Let's game!"

That is all you need to keep the game MOVING. Motivations and all that can come later when they are back safely in town or, preferrably, during non-gaming time. Your goal should be to reintegrate the guy back into the game ASAP. Having him sit by the sidelines writing a 30 page essay on his character is BAD-DM'ING(tm).

Callix

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2008, 09:06:15 AM »
AJ: Chill, dude. You're coming across as seriously aggro on this whole thing.

Radijs: I'd agree that you probably need to help with integrating new characters, but there's nothing you can do with a bunch of faceless numbers. I'd say your playstyle is simply a bit different to your players; they're a bit too hack'n'slash for your tastes. I'd ask for someone else to take over DMing for a bit, put your campaign on the backburner, and come back to it when everyone's let off a bit of steam. Variety is the spice of life, and by ensuring your players get a range of playstyles, you can expect them to be a bit more on-style in your more serious game.

All the same, if a PC wants to be suicidal, I'd give them an "are you sure you want to do that", then have consequences happen. And party infighting is always a bad sign, but can't really be reliably fixed; by giving the players a bit of time and space, maybe the characters can come to an understanding.

Also, I'd slide a few of your PCs toward Evil if they agree to the contract, and Chaotic if they betray the devil lord. I hope there aren't any paladins involved...
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Radijs

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2008, 12:02:10 PM »
AndyJames, the way you're responding to my messages annoys me. Like Callix said, you appear to be very agressive about this whole deal. I thank you for your imput. But I would appreciate it if you could put it in a more positive tone.

A break is probably a good idea. The summer vacation is coming and with it 4 weeks of pause on my usual campaign. And I'm gonna consider halting this one for a while longer. Maybe see if someone else wants the big chair.

In general I don't pull punches to protect PC's or players from their own actions. Only when I learn that its through my mistake that causes a death. IE: I overscale the challenge on an encounter without intent.

To Aftercresent: The group is a mix. Some personal friends, some people I only game with. Though we do not play at a gaming store. Usually we play at my home or at the home of one of my friends.
What part of Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn don't you understand?

Sunic_Flames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2008, 12:47:02 PM »
I was going to make a new thread for this but since it is somewhat related...

Scenario in a nutshell: Party exploring underground section of a tomb, where they find some brown mold completely blocking their way into a room. They all run across it, everyone takes damage. Warlock gets staggered at the edge, everyone else makes it across.

While split up, the group accidentally awakens a Medium earth elemental, and the lurking strangler who heard their bumbling about was waiting in ambush here. The latter didn't do anything though as all of its attacks were resisted or missed entirely.

Warlock attempts to heal himself, botches the UMD roll on a lesser vigor scroll spectacularly and KOs himself.

Everyone else deals with the elemental. They get it down to 3 HP, and are doing fairly well. Then the druid, who had barely been paying attention all fight casts Obscuring Mist. This completely screws up the strategy, and blocks a reach True Strike AoO that had a 95% chance of ending the encounter because total concealment = no AoOs.

Slam attack, down goes the Duskblade.

Cleave, down goes the Favored Soul.

Cleric attempts to melee, misses quite awesomely.

Slam, down goes the cleric.

Druid's summoned pet goes for what would be one last attack...

Natural 20, beats concealment. Max damage, and rolled openly.

So he revives them all who are quite relieved. Except the warlock. Unbeknowst to them, the strangler decided that since it couldn't do much in the fog, it'd just fly out and hide. Then it sees the lovely target... who is dead. They don't know that yet.

Cleric attempts to run across the mold again to save him, and staggers himself.

I have the strangler hiding over there so if he does make it, it will readied action Cause Fear to try to scare him back into the mold (and KO him)

The way things are going, I may very well kill 5 ECL 3 characters with a stock CR 1 monster, and an environmental hazard they haven't figured out to hit with cold yet. It was pure luck the elemental didn't do it.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2008, 05:58:17 PM »
AndyJames, the way you're responding to my messages annoys me. Like Callix said, you appear to be very agressive about this whole deal. I thank you for your imput. But I would appreciate it if you could put it in a more positive tone.
Hey, I am not the guy that is complaining because a player is so interested in my game that he quickly sketches up a character within 10 mins SO THAT HE CAN REJOIN the game. I would have taken it as a sign that my campaign is good. Pfft! Dramaqueen much?

Callix

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2008, 08:47:17 PM »
AndyJames, the way you're responding to my messages annoys me. Like Callix said, you appear to be very agressive about this whole deal. I thank you for your imput. But I would appreciate it if you could put it in a more positive tone.
Hey, I am not the guy that is complaining because a player is so interested in my game that he quickly sketches up a character within 10 mins SO THAT HE CAN REJOIN the game. I would have taken it as a sign that my campaign is good. Pfft! Dramaqueen much?
Dude, easy on the caps lock. Asterisks and underlines for emphasis, please.

Also, while he made a 10-minute character sketch, it had no backstory or motivation, and the entire point of the OP is that he's worried that his players aren't interested in the intricate world he has made for them, and instead just want to kill stuff. It's not a problem in everyone's books, but different expectations in a playgroup can make things very un-fun for some people. So instead of just baiting the guy, you could tell him not to worry without chewing his head off.

And yes, I lowered your gameology-fu for that. It was inconsiderate, and showed a poor grasp of the different aspects of RPGs that people find fun.
I know gameology-fu.

AndyJames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2008, 09:50:35 PM »
What is there to grasp? He is there to have fun, so are his players. Having a guy spend hours on making a super character background is counterproductive to the latter when there is a game on. Have him do it after and work with him on it instead of beating him about the head and complaining about the fact that the guy took 10 mins to rejoin the game.

Here is a tip:

A player who is writing and thinking up his background is NOT playing the game. In a session of 4-5 hours (or whatever it is), I would rather the player NOT spend most of that time sitting on the sidelines and coming up with a background. That shows disrespect. It shows that his time does not matter to you. You seem to think that this is somehow "fun". I call bullshit.

nemafow

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2008, 12:22:50 AM »
Or you know, since he died in the session, he could go home and join next game?

I never let my players rejoin within 10 minutes, if they die thats unfortunate, but the other players still have to continue playing just without his/her help.

ShaggyShaggs

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2008, 01:45:26 AM »
So PCs have been dying off, and it looks like much more death is on the way.  The players are more concerned with the crunch than the fluff, and won't spend lots of time on character creation.  This isn't abnormal, throwaway characters aren't worth much effort.

The players do sound pretty goofy, and likely disinterested in the story (it happens, stories get old, many only last because the players expect the DM will balk at just starting with big characters with cool abilities, and endure boredom hoping for later reward).  They could probably use a few hard smacks of the cluestick, get their heads on straight and get them paying attention again.  However, when the game turns meatgrinder, regardless of how it happens, the DM loses any and all right to complain about quickie disposable replacement characters -- it's just stroking his own ego about how important his story is while disrespecting the players' own expenditures of time.

I think the OP's game is definitely doomed unless he and his players have major attitude adjustments after a serious talk about the direction of the game and what everyone wants from it.  It might be doomed anyway, having run out of steam or just suffered the participants' interests going in incompatibly different directions, but there isn't a chance in hell for it without improved communication and more respect in both directions.
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AndyJames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2008, 11:03:02 PM »
Or you know, since he died in the session, he could go home and join next game?

I never let my players rejoin within 10 minutes, if they die thats unfortunate, but the other players still have to continue playing just without his/her help.

Guys get together. Game starts. 10 minutes in:

DM: Opps! Crit. Sorry, George, looks like you're dead.
George: Crap. Now what?
DM: Go home, think of a new character, give me an essay, and I'll let you back in next session.
George: But... We are scheduled to play for the next 5 hours! It took me an hour to get here...!
DM: Too bad. You are not joining in so quickly. So, go home and give me an essay, you rollplayer!
George:   :nonono :fo :fo :fo

Callix

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2008, 11:26:31 PM »
Guys get together. Game starts. 10 minutes in:

DM: Opps! Crit. Sorry, George, looks like you're dead.
George: Crap. Now what?
DM: Go home, think of a new character, give me an essay, and I'll let you back in next session.
George: But... We are scheduled to play for the next 5 hours! It took me an hour to get here...!
DM: Too bad. You are not joining in so quickly. So, go home and give me an essay, you rollplayer!
George:   :nonono :fo :fo :fo
There is a middle ground between asking for an essay and having no motivation for your character. Taking 20-30 minutes to create a character with personality and goals beyond "kill stuff" is good for the game in most cases. I agree that locking them out of an entire session is a bit much, but this is not a dichotomy.

My main issue with this game is not Radijs' or his players' playstyles. It's that they conflict so much. Hence, I reccomended that Radijs get someone else behind the screen for a bit, and see if the break can get the players more interested in character development. I'm not saying anyone is having badwrongfun, just that the DM is losing interest, and that's bad for the game. So, to preserve everyone's fun, we need to ensure that everyone (DM included) is having fun.

I'll also say this: I am very, very fond of character optimisation. Almost all of my characters start off as "that's a cool mechanic, I'm going to use it", and the personality and so on comes later. But it does come, and I don't put a character into play that I can't understand.
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AndyJames

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2008, 11:37:00 PM »
There is a middle ground between asking for an essay and having no motivation for your character. Taking 20-30 minutes to create a character with personality and goals beyond "kill stuff" is good for the game in most cases. I agree that locking them out of an entire session is a bit much, but this is not a dichotomy.
Why interrupt the game *for the player*? It is only one session. Let him quickly rejoin the game, then in the time between sessions, come up with something that is likely to be better than a 20-30min hack job. Who knows, maybe as the session progresses, he gets ideas from the happenings in the session and tailor his character's background better than yet another random dude from the sticks.

My point stands: Not allowing the player back in quickly is just spite on the part of the DM. A "You died! Neener! Neener! Your punishment is to sit things out for a bit. Go to the sin-bin!". I call bull.

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Re: My campaign's headed towards a TPK
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 11:53:51 PM »
By the way, resisting spells meant to KEEP ONE ALIVE just because one is annoyed is not "roleplaying". It is stupidity. Darwinism should follow.
Actually, it is roleplaying. It's roleplaying a person who is principled enough to be petty but not principled enough to take action. It is, in effect, roleplaying someone stupid, but it's not "not roleplaying."