Author Topic: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.  (Read 22465 times)

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Mixster

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2010, 04:14:44 PM »
The average of 10d6 is 35, not 28.
Barbarians don't do 35 damage to 10 targets by level 2. They aren't doing it with no save or chance of avoidance by level 10 either. Most barbarians are stopped by a single level 4 spell. This lightning isn't.

A fleshraker has 4 extra HD at level 10. Now when we try to get our facts here, let's not overvaluate the other classes, this doesn't give it +10-11 extra strength, it gives it +3 strength. This puts the fleshrakers claws at +11 to hit. Hitting AC 25 at that level is still a bad chance. Even with three attacks. Also set fleshraker would only have 52 hit points, meaning it can go down quite easily. A fleshraker like that charging anyone would be stopped like any other maximized warrior pretty easily.
If you throw on two magic items and a spell, a druid animal companion is damned deadly yeah. (and bead of Karma is debatable at this level, since it costs half your WBL if your DM reads the DMG and not just takes the one item out where there is a printing error).
So what you are comparing is one class ability, against another class' class ability, and half its WBL, and a spell cast by the same character, and you want to add more spells to that. Yet those attacks can be avoided, and are single target effects.
You might have heard all those people ranting about how blasting is not effective, but basically that is because blasting is easy to resist. This blast spell isn't easy to resist. It's damned hard to do anything about, meelee chargers aren't insuperior to casters because casters deal more raw damage than them, but because when a meelee character wants to deal damage to a caster, doing so is basically impossible, melee chargers could in theory take casters down if the caster weren't allowed to do anything about it, but they do. And this is why dealing 10d6 damage at will as a standard action to all your enemies is quite good.

And rogues should do Cha damage instead of Strength damage, because that is how the MM works. And rogues need things to get you flatfooted first (oh and flanking is easy, but people seem to forget). Rogue builds at level 15 that do TWF rarely go higher than +15 on attack rolls without aid of the cleric (and possibly the bard). Now you are comparing two (or three) guys working together to your one class ability, this isn't everything the class can do, it is just one of the things.

Barbarians might be doing 35 damage earlier than you, but Barbarians can pretty easily be avoided, (hint: it's called grease). Going into triple damage at level 10 might seem good, but most of the characters that do so, make it on either a single attack in melee, or multiple week ranged attacks. All of which can be stopped pretty easily with spells of 3rd level or less. Doing 35 reliable damage to every target every round is good at level 10.

This is one class ability we are discussing, everything else you've mentioned have been whole builds based around maximizing your damage output.

I'm not saying the class is totally overpowered and should be scrapped completely, heck, I'm not even saying it's so overpowered it's not supposed to be in there, heck I'm not even saying that it is overpowered, I'm saying that when you test this class (seeing as this is a test run, right?), you might want to look to Lightning is my middle name, as one of the abilities that could need toning down if the class turns out too good.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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bearsarebrown

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2010, 04:44:41 PM »
Well, all the SLAs for Stormlord are either based on a spell, which has it's own spell level, or have a spell level defined.

Notice that sculpting is a meta feat. And yes, I oppose energy subbing to gain the ability to use any energy source.
Ah, so just using the highest level SLA I have access to as the Maximum Spell level. This would be 7th level spells when you hit level 9.  8th level at level 13. Don't think you'd ever hit 9th level.

I agree that the Spellcasting feat I linked was probably too strong. I'd just like to do some Energy Sub. Even if it was only one or two elements.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 04:49:02 PM by bearsarebrown »

oslecamo

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2010, 04:48:38 PM »
Yeah. Me too. What kind of magical obstacles could be thrown that wouldn't be equally as negated by you know, any other class, is what's confusing me.

-Supernatural abilities wich normally can't be, you know, dispelled.
-Other classes would need to at least roll something with a chance to fail.
-Or spend something more valuable than a swift action.
-And both of the above aren't spammable every turn, demanding either limited spell slots, or some kind of recharge.

With that out of the way, onwards to the doubts avalanche!

bearsarebrown:Stormlord allowed, but I must point out nothing on the class says allies are protected from all the area effects, so watch out for friendly fire, at least untill you reach lv11.

Also, I do not aprove of Storm pseudonatural body feat. Just pick air elemental body.

I'll let the whirlwind DC be 10+1/2Hd+Con modifier.

And no to metamagic feats. If you want them, be an actual spellcaster with less than 24 800 spell slots per day. I'll let you pick normal meta-SLA feats tough. Altough yeah, energy substitution kinda goes against the class concept.

VennDygrem:Ok, here's the changes for me to allow the Force Potentate.

[spoiler]
 -First, it's the "Force" Potentate, not the "Abjuration+Divination+Force" Potentate.
-You retain greater arcane sight and remove magic, but they only work against [Force] effects.
-Force barrage staggering works against everybody whitout caring for HD, but it allows a Fort Save and the DC is 10+Number of missiles you shot at that target+Int modifier. So the more missiles you shoot at a target the harder it is to resist.
-Force aura allows saves every turn, not once per hour.
-Rest of the class will need some work after you start gaining levels.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis:
Ok, I wish the best for your daughter, thanks for the interest!

Hmm, this was shorter than I expected. If I missed any other doubt point it out.


bearsarebrown

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2010, 04:58:03 PM »
@friendly fire, yes that seems like it might be an issue. maybe I can find some items to help or something.
@whirldwind DC, great! thanks. it's strange, the Air Elemental given DCs seem completely arbitrary. They don't follow 10 + 1/2HD + Ability Modifier for any ability score.
@metamagic, gotcha.

Kaelik

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2010, 05:02:03 PM »
The average of 10d6 is 35, not 28.

Yes it is.

Barbarians don't do 35 damage to 10 targets by level 2. They aren't doing it with no save or chance of avoidance by level 10 either. Most barbarians are stopped by a single level 4 spell. This lightning isn't.

1) As I said, single target damage for the Barbarian at level 2. And they are doing it no save, and the chance for avoidance is not particularly good.

A fleshraker has 4 extra HD at level 10. Now when we try to get our facts here, let's not overvaluate the other classes, this doesn't give it +10-11 extra strength, it gives it +3 strength. This puts the fleshrakers claws at +11 to hit. Hitting AC 25 at that level is still a bad chance. Even with three attacks. Also set fleshraker would only have 52 hit points, meaning it can go down quite easily. A fleshraker like that charging anyone would be stopped like any other maximized warrior pretty easily.

A Fleshraker gains 4HD, which gives it a size increase, which gives it a +8 bonus to Str. It can also have +6 HD if you take Natural Bond. In either case, it adds considerably to AB, keeping it well within level 10 range.

If you throw on two magic items and a spell, a druid animal companion is damned deadly yeah. (and bead of Karma is debatable at this level, since it costs half your WBL if your DM reads the DMG and not just takes the one item out where there is a printing error).

These are not items and a spell. These are one spell that lasts all day, and two items that a Druid will have anyway, being used to provide all their normal benefits, and also, at the same time with no extra cost, buff the AC. I wasn't even counting using the extra Eternal Wand uses to provide competence bonuses to the AC.

So what you are comparing is one class ability, against another class' class ability, and half its WBL, and a spell cast by the same character, and you want to add more spells to that. Yet those attacks can be avoided, and are single target effects.

No, what I'm comparing is one class using it's standard action in combat, to another class not using an actions at all, and still doing more damage.

You might have heard all those people ranting about how blasting is not effective,

No, I didn't hear all these people ranting about anything. I have played and analyzed the game extensively, and know what I am talking about. But thanks for just deciding that I believe whatever anyone tells me because I'm not smart enough to figure anything out on my own.

but basically that is because blasting is easy to resist. This blast spell isn't easy to resist.

It's not because it's easy to resist, it's because of a confluence of factors, including easy to resist, not doing very much damage relative to level, and being very inefficient with resources for most characters.

Luckily, the vast majority of those problems are negated by the way the class works, bringing it's blasting up into the realm of "quite usable, though not particularly amazing."

It's damned hard to do anything about, meelee chargers aren't insuperior to casters because casters deal more raw damage than them, but because when a meelee character wants to deal damage to a caster, doing so is basically impossible, melee chargers could in theory take casters down if the caster weren't allowed to do anything about it, but they do.

1) Casters and melee chargers don't face each other, they face level appropriate opposition. This can include to a limited extent, those two character types, but their balance when facing each other is not the problem.


And this is why dealing 10d6 damage at will as a standard action to all your enemies is quite good.

Every time I see you say some variant of the bolded part, I wonder if you even know how chain lightning works.

And rogues should do Cha damage instead of Strength damage, because that is how the MM works.

I do not know what you mean MM to stand for. I usually use it for Magic Missile or Mordenkainen's Mansion. Neither seems appropriate here. I am referring to the special ability which allows them to do 2 Str damage every time they SA someone.

And rogues need things to get you flatfooted first (oh and flanking is easy, but people seem to forget). Rogue builds at level 15 that do TWF rarely go higher than +15 on attack rolls without aid of the cleric (and possibly the bard).

1) Flat footed is easy. Flanking is hard, because it requires enemies wanting to be within melee range of you, someone else in the party wanting to be within melee range of them, and them being willing to hold still, and you wasting a round to set it up that you could have been attacking with while blinking.

2) You are a Rogue, I don't know why you are TWFing without a 1 level Barbarian Dip for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce, but since the penalty for TWFing is identical to Rapid Shot, I won't worry about it Maybe you are TWFing and Rapid Shotting, thanks to thrown weapons.

Anyway: You are a Human Rogue, because you are a loser. You have Dex/Str of 24 for a +7, You have a BAB of +7, you have a magic weapon if you aren't throwing flasks, so that's another +2. You take a -2 penalty. If you have one of the following things:

A Racial Dex bonus, a feat that adds to attack roll, a ring of blinking, haste, small size, or Point Blank Shot.

You beat +15. That was easy. Now, if you are a Halfling throwing flasks, you have +18 when you are taking -4 to both attacks. If you have a bow, you have similar AB because you have a magic weapon.

Barbarians might be doing 35 damage earlier than you, but Barbarians can pretty easily be avoided, (hint: it's called grease).

They can avoid that. Hint, it's called flying, and by level 10, they had better be doing that anyway.

Doing 35 reliable damage to every target every round is good at level 10.

You mean "Every target that is within 30ft of every other target I also want to hit, as I can only hit a 15ft radius Sphere, and therefore, I might as well be casting Searing Fireball with no save, except slightly smaller."

This is one class ability we are discussing, everything else you've mentioned have been whole builds based around maximizing your damage output.

No, everything else I mentioned was a Druid casting one spell on his AC.

when you test this class (seeing as this is a test run, right?), you might want to look to Lightning is my middle name, as one of the abilities that could need toning down if the class turns out too good.

No, this isn't a test run. The Storm Lord is sufficiently tested that I am confident I have nailed the balance I set out for.

The Force Potentate, and Elemental Siphon have to my knowledge never been played, though I have done some preliminary testing with them both.

Kaelik

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2010, 05:07:37 PM »
-Supernatural abilities wich normally can't be, you know, dispelled.
-Other classes would need to at least roll something with a chance to fail.
-Or spend something more valuable than a swift action.
-And both of the above aren't spammable every turn, demanding either limited spell slots, or some kind of recharge.

No, I mean, what's a magical obstacle? I'm going through our other game, and not finding a single one. What is a magical obstacle that we would ever face that can't be defeated by anyone else.

Yes, other people when faced with debuffs have to be immune to them, or use some cure spell, or redirect them at someone else. And the Force Potentate removes them one at a time (so significantly slower than they come out).

Did you just mean "Debuffs" when you said "Magical Obstacle?" Yes, I agree the class has a heavy dispel focus. That was intended, I'm not questioning whether you want a character that good at dispelling in the game. I'm pretty sure you don't want a Wizard that good at dispelling in the game either. I just want to know what a Magical Obstacle is.

oslecamo

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2010, 06:10:09 PM »
I just want to know what a Magical Obstacle is.

Magic traps. Ongoing magic effects on an area that can be argued  to target creatures. Long duration debuffs as well.

And yes, you already faced them on the other game. The battle at the mountain temple had everybody with their teleportation fully disabled. Your character probably wouldn't notice it. He did notice the cursed shield.

Now I normally don't  using them out of my own initiative, but city of the spider queen is literally bursting with them. Drows love their traps and curses and poisons, and force potentate can be readed as basically sending all of that down the drain.


Kaelik

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2010, 07:30:41 PM »
force potentate can be readed as basically sending all of that down the drain.

Clearly I need to reword it then.

Hey, my first draft was still better worded than Iron Heart Surge.

Mixster

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2010, 07:34:56 PM »
A Fleshraker gains 4HD, which gives it a size increase, which gives it a +8 bonus to Str. It can also have +6 HD if you take Natural Bond. In either case, it adds considerably to AB, keeping it well within level 10 range.
Fleshrakers need 5 extra HD to become large. And natural bond does nothing if you are a single classed druid, so it's sorta worthless, because who multiclasses out of druid?

If you throw on two magic items and a spell, a druid animal companion is damned deadly yeah. (and bead of Karma is debatable at this level, since it costs half your WBL if your DM reads the DMG and not just takes the one item out where there is a printing error).

These are not items and a spell. These are one spell that lasts all day, and two items that a Druid will have anyway, being used to provide all their normal benefits, and also, at the same time with no extra cost, buff the AC. I wasn't even counting using the extra Eternal Wand uses to provide competence bonuses to the AC.
A bead of Karma is in a strand of Prayer bands, which cost 45.800g, at 10th level you have 49.000g, so if you get nothing but that you can have your 10 minutes/day +4 caster level. To set up your buffs. Yes. If a druid spends a spell and all his WBL at being more awesome at damage dealing than you he can. A druid is high tier 1. Is that what you want this class to be?
Also, this damage is done less reliably even.

You might have heard all those people ranting about how blasting is not effective,

No, I didn't hear all these people ranting about anything. I have played and analyzed the game extensively, and know what I am talking about. But thanks for just deciding that I believe whatever anyone tells me because I'm not smart enough to figure anything out on my own.
I did not mean to offend you, that was careless of me, I am truly sorry.


but basically that is because blasting is easy to resist. This blast spell isn't easy to resist.
It's not because it's easy to resist, it's because of a confluence of factors, including easy to resist, not doing very much damage relative to level, and being very inefficient with resources for most characters.

Luckily, the vast majority of those problems are negated by the way the class works, bringing it's blasting up into the realm of "quite usable, though not particularly amazing."
Though still technically better than most other glasscannons in every way.
This is an all day, 10d6 damage ability, standard action at will. Only tier 1 highly focused build get to go much higher than that, and they can still be resisted, and are limited in their uses per day.

It's damned hard to do anything about, meelee chargers aren't insuperior to casters because casters deal more raw damage than them, but because when a meelee character wants to deal damage to a caster, doing so is basically impossible, melee chargers could in theory take casters down if the caster weren't allowed to do anything about it, but they do.

1) Casters and melee chargers don't face each other, they face level appropriate opposition. This can include to a limited extent, those two character types, but their balance when facing each other is not the problem.
And this is why dealing 10d6 damage at will as a standard action to all your enemies is quite good.

Every time I see you say some variant of the bolded part, I wonder if you even know how chain lightning works.
Ok... Everyenemy in a 30ft radius sphere. Why is that so different from every enemy, is it often they are more than 60ft apart? I rarely see those encounters, but you may, depending on whether you fight in tightly cramped dungeons, the wilderness or the open skies.
Still hitting everyone in a big sphere is pretty much more than any other glass cannon can hope for.

And rogues should do Cha damage instead of Strength damage, because that is how the MM works.

I do not know what you mean MM to stand for. I usually use it for Magic Missile or Mordenkainen's Mansion. Neither seems appropriate here. I am referring to the special ability which allows them to do 2 Str damage every time they SA someone.
(MM=Monsters Manual)
First, that means you are a single classed rogue, you cannot take any other levels if you want that at level 10
Second, I'm thinking of the Maiming strike ambush feat, which gives you the ability to trade 2d6 sneak attack for 1 cha damage. Which is good because of Monsters either rely on cha, or have low cha. It's a lot easier clipping someones cha down to 0 then chipping away all they hp, especially if your target is something that is hard to sneak attack.
But this besides the point, because we stop comparing damage to damage, but damage to other factors.

And rogues need things to get you flatfooted first (oh and flanking is easy, but people seem to forget). Rogue builds at level 15 that do TWF rarely go higher than +15 on attack rolls without aid of the cleric (and possibly the bard).

1) Flat footed is easy. Flanking is hard, because it requires enemies wanting to be within melee range of you, someone else in the party wanting to be within melee range of them, and them being willing to hold still, and you wasting a round to set it up that you could have been attacking with while blinking.

2) You are a Rogue, I don't know why you are TWFing without a 1 level Barbarian Dip for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce, but since the penalty for TWFing is identical to Rapid Shot, I won't worry about it Maybe you are TWFing and Rapid Shotting, thanks to thrown weapons.

Anyway: You are a Human Rogue, because you are a loser. You have Dex/Str of 24 for a +7, You have a BAB of +7, you have a magic weapon if you aren't throwing flasks, so that's another +2. You take a -2 penalty. If you have one of the following things:

A Racial Dex bonus, a feat that adds to attack roll, a ring of blinking, haste, small size, or Point Blank Shot.

You beat +15. That was easy. Now, if you are a Halfling throwing flasks, you have +18 when you are taking -4 to both attacks. If you have a bow, you have similar AB because you have a magic weapon.
Ok I'll humor you.
If you have two +2 weapons you are using 16000 gold on it.
If you have a ring of blinking as well, then that's 27.000 gold. You now have 6.000 gold left, to spend on all the other useful rogue items.
If you have a dex of 24 as a human at this level, you have used an 18 on your dex (which is allright for a rogue, granted it is your most important stat therefore you off course put two +1 mods to your dex), and you have an item that grants you +4 dex. This item costs 16.000g.
Now you are down to -10k gold.
So instead go with halfling (strongheart ofc) and hit that dex of 24, you throw stuff, and you have your ring of blinking. (Well you have a 20% miss chance alone because you are blinking, but let's conveniently forget about that shall we.) So you get +4 (Small size, throwing stuff that halflings are good at, point blank shot, weapon focus),  +7 +7, so yeah +18 to hit, but you are twfing so +16, but you are also rapid shotting for some reason, so it is +14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9. Now you can haste as well, but then the wizard buffed you, a stormlord could also get a wizard to turn him into a choker and double his damage output, but that would hardly be fair. So sorry I was one point off. But do you really think you will hit with enough of those attacks that it matters? That's like about 2.5 hits on average, and you deal 5d6*2.5=15d6 precision damage and a whopping 5 damage to his strength. With 4 feats, more gold than is allowed for his level and help, the usual main damage dealer, outdamages your area effect damage slightly when not aiming at a target that is immune to sneak attack, and you don't take into account that the stormlord could use (cheaper if I might add) items or feats to boost him just as easily.

Quote
Barbarians might be doing 35 damage earlier than you, but Barbarians can pretty easily be avoided, (hint: it's called grease).

They can avoid that. Hint, it's called flying, and by level 10, they had better be doing that anyway.
How is flying gonna help you if you've dropped your weapon? Or if there is something else wearing you down?
Like, I don't know, dispel magic, that loads of monsters have anyway.

Quote
Doing 35 reliable damage to every target every round is good at level 10.

You mean "Every target that is within 30ft of every other target I also want to hit, as I can only hit a 15ft radius Sphere, and therefore, I might as well be casting Searing Fireball with no save, except slightly smaller."

Heh I wonder if you know how Chain lightning works. Every target you choose that is in a 30ft radius sphere, yes you might as well want to cast a searing fireball, but that would cost you a feat, and targets that are hit would get a save for half damage. Also it would take up less space, and you wouldn't be able to do that as often per day. So yes you "might" as well be casting a searing fireball, except this effect is better and cheaper in every way.

Quote
This is one class ability we are discussing, everything else you've mentioned have been whole builds based around maximizing your damage output.

No, everything else I mentioned was a Druid casting one spell on his AC.
And using 95% of his WBL

when you test this class (seeing as this is a test run, right?), you might want to look to Lightning is my middle name, as one of the abilities that could need toning down if the class turns out too good.

No, this isn't a test run. The Storm Lord is sufficiently tested that I am confident I have nailed the balance I set out for.

The Force Potentate, and Elemental Siphon have to my knowledge never been played, though I have done some preliminary testing with them both.
So what balance did you set out for?

EDIT: Spellchecking
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 08:03:25 PM by Mixster »
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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VennDygrem

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2010, 07:46:22 PM »
@Oslecamo: I can live with the changes you mentioned. Remove magic is still useful against control spells like force cage, wall of force, etc. I will agree with Kaelik that his version is less overpowering than I thought at first, given its nature as stripping away only one debuff/control effect at a time. I can still understand your reservations though, so I have no objections.

The alteration to Force Aura is also incredibly reasonable, and incidentally one of the few changes I'd suggest Kaelik make to the class outside of this game (though it honestly works either way).

As for alterations to abilities at later levels, here are my thoughts:
Quote
Force Maze also seems a little too low level compared to the spell it mimics, but I'm sure that's intentional: a DC 20 intelligence check shouldn't be too hard for many of the types of enemies I assume we'd be up against. Still, if osle has a beef against it, I wouldn't mind losing it or knocking it back a few levels.
Mentioned earlier.

Force Cascade: I can live without the extra swift action, though its utility is fairly limited as-is unless I'm missing something. The bouncing of force barrage missiles could apply only to a certain number of missiles, but doesn't seem all too overpowered compared to the damage output of other blasting-oriented casters. Again, I can manage with or without it.

Game Disjunction: Upgrade Remove Magic to be usable as this class ability as a standard action (or as its normal version as the normal swift action), and affect all force effects, including those that target the caster (such as mage armor, which is exempt from Remove Magic).

Forcecage: A little later than the spell, but nothing gamechanging here.

Talore

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2010, 08:59:54 PM »
Yeah, I'm still here, just busy and not talkative. VennDygrem told me what the roles are, but what do we really still need?
Backseat moderator (voice) -_-

Kaelik

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2010, 09:29:37 PM »
Spoilered for getting in the way.

[spoiler]
Fleshrakers need 5 extra HD to become large. And natural bond does nothing if you are a single classed druid, so it's sorta worthless, because who multiclasses out of druid?

Natural Bond can offset the penalty for using a higher level AC, such as a Fleshraker.

A bead of Karma is in a strand of Prayer bands, which cost 45.800g, at 10th level you have 49.000g, so if you get nothing but that you can have your 10 minutes/day +4 caster level. To set up your buffs. Yes. If a druid spends a spell and all his WBL at being more awesome at damage dealing than you he can. A druid is high tier 1. Is that what you want this class to be?

1) A Bead of Karma does not have to be on a complete Strand of Prayer Beads. It can be on it's own. And since that's the only one anyone wants, 90% of Prayer Bead Strands are going to have just that one.

2) If a Druid spends a single spell and some of his WBL he can have have a class feature that is awesome at doing damage, and still have all his own actions to cast other spells.

3) Don't ever say the word Tier to me if you want to have a meaningful conversation.

4) I want my class to be able to keep up with a Druids Animal Companion with a single buff cast on it, yes. That's something I desire.

Though still technically better than most other glasscannons in every way.

Most other high damage dealers are not glass cannons. See, Druid. The Rogue is probably the most glass cannony of them all, and even he's not bad.


Some level appropriate opposition can stop uber chargers. Some can't. Those that can't die instantly in paste, and so DMs don't use them when a PC is playing an ubercharger. Which is the problem with Uberchargers, as I said.

Ok... Everyenemy in a 30ft radius sphere. Why is that so different from every enemy, is it often they are more than 60ft apart? I rarely see those encounters, but you may, depending on whether you fight in tightly cramped dungeons, the wilderness or the open skies.

Yes, I often see enemies more than 30ft apart. Especially when those enemies are smart, and especially when there are more than two of them.

Still hitting everyone in a big sphere is pretty much more than any other glass cannon can hope for.

But hitting for 2-3 times the damage and killing them in one round isn't. That's something the Storm Lord wishes he could do.

especially if your target is something that is hard to sneak attack.

I prefer Str damage, because it's more, and it actually works against things that are immune to Str damage for a feat (and a feat that does other things too) so you can add Elementals and people with fort armor to the list of constructs and undead as things you can deal with just fine.

But this besides the point, because we stop comparing damage to damage, but damage to other factors.

Actually, my point was that Rogues can do more damage and also have other things going on in addition to that. So... I guess I was right.

Ok I'll humor you.
If you have two +2 weapons you are using 16000 gold on it.

No, you have one weapon, and it costs 9000gp for it to be a +2 weapon. But if you did actually pay for real +enhancments, you'd be paying for a bow, not TWFing, because that's better.

If you have a dex of 24 as a human at this level, you have used an 18 on your dex (which is allright for a rogue, granted it is your most important stat therefore you off course put two +1 mods to your dex), and you have an item that grants you +4 dex. This item costs 16.000g.

I did miss add there. I meant for that to only be a 16 in dex.

Well you have a 20% miss chance alone because you are blinking, but let's conveniently forget about that shall we.

Long story short, no you don't suffer a miss chance throwing or shooting arrows. But let's not get into that right now, because it has nothing to do with the greater picture.

Now you can haste as well

Boots of Haste are pretty much Rogue Mandatory.

a stormlord could also get a wizard to turn him into a choker and double his damage output

That's a Su ability, and as such, not granted by anything short of Shapechange, which is personal. So no, he can't.

But do you really think you will hit with enough of those attacks that it matters? That's like about 2.5 hits on average, and you deal 5d6*2.5=15d6 precision damage and a whopping 5 damage to his strength.

Yes, I think +16/+16/+16/+16/+11 is probably going to hit against Flat footed touch AC. Also known as, 10.

With 4 feats, more gold than is allowed for his level and help, the usual main damage dealer, outdamages your area effect damage slightly when not aiming at a target that is immune to sneak attack

Nope Outdamages it substantially, against all enemies except oozes (and that can see the ethereal plane). Also, not more gold, since the flasker need not have any magic weapons at all.

and you don't take into account that the stormlord could use (cheaper if I might add) items or feats to boost him just as easily.

No, not really. Feats and items don't benefit the Storm Lord much at all at increasing his existing abilities. By design. Instead, it pays to invest them in other abilities.

How is flying gonna help you if you've dropped your weapon? Or if there is something else wearing you down?

You manufacture a Quarterstaff in zero seconds with a craft DC of zero, then charge for eleven billion damage. Don't be "worn down." Want you want to find, but can't think of by the way, is entangle. Being entangled prevents charges.

Like, I don't know, dispel magic, that loads of monsters have anyway.

Get a method of constant flight like Dragonborn Water Orc?

Heh I wonder if you know how Chain lightning works. Every target you choose that is in a 30ft radius sphere, yes you might as well want to cast a searing fireball, but that would cost you a feat, and targets that are hit would get a save for half damage. Also it would take up less space, and you wouldn't be able to do that as often per day. So yes you "might" as well be casting a searing fireball, except this effect is better and cheaper in every way.

Except of course the whole. Not being a Wizard, and therefore not having all sorts of abilities.

And using 95% of his WBL

No, using a small part of his WBL for an item that he wants to have anyway, because it also adds +1 to his Greater Magic Fang attack and damage, and makes all the rest of his buffs last longer and harder to dispel (and sometimes, Heart of Earth, provide greater benefit.)

So what balance did you set out for?

65% Same Game Test with significant utility functions.

VennDygrem

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2010, 09:33:08 PM »
@Talore: Well, we don't have any buffing, nor much in the way of debuffing. We don't really have any out-of-combat healing either (I'm ignoring in-combat healing, as we all know it's usually a wasted turn).

Though, honestly, what would you like to play? You seemed keen on the SCM earlier; are you interested more in a casting class? Casters are always welcome.

I also believe we could use some who's good as a party Face. I don't think we have anyone who can actually use diplomacy or bluff very effectively...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 09:54:09 PM by VennDygrem »

Talore

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2010, 10:12:04 PM »
@Talore: Well, we don't have any buffing, nor much in the way of debuffing. We don't really have any out-of-combat healing either (I'm ignoring in-combat healing, as we all know it's usually a wasted turn).

Though, honestly, what would you like to play? You seemed keen on the SCM earlier; are you interested more in a casting class? Casters are always welcome.

I also believe we could use some who's good as a party Face. I don't think we have anyone who can actually use diplomacy or bluff very effectively...
Well, even though it may not be optimal, I wanted to do something linked to the underdark. What I kind of wanted to do was like, a stealthy character who has a climb speed, dip a bit of thief-acrobat... Stonedeath Assassin was what I was thinking of for another dip. I'd be a Jungle Goblin to get a climb speed (which I love) that qualifies me for Stonedeath Assassin, making hide checks around rock is awesome, and I could be sneakily travelling on the ceiling, even morphing into the rock due to stonedeath assassin... and then as primary attack mode drop from the ceiling at someone... maybe taking elements of a hood in there. What do you guys suggest?

Just re-read Climb speed, so I don't need Thief-Acrobat.

Thinking Shadow(+2 LA) Jungle Goblin (Maybe with dragonborn to survive falls)... who is like a sneaky hood... maybe leaving Stonedeath assassin out of it, because I get Full COncealment from Shadow...

Does anyone know of a better way to take no fall damage then being Dragonborn, or getting a ridiculously high tumble check? Boots of landing and a DC30 check means 40' less damage... which might be okay... but I think I need moar.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 11:24:22 PM by Talore »
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bearsarebrown

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2010, 01:44:57 AM »
It only takes two Fiend feats to get Wings. Also consider, how far are you really going to fall?

VennDygrem

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2010, 02:00:57 AM »
Don't forget that it's not too hard to get items with feather fall on them.

kevin_video

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2010, 05:13:01 AM »
I'll wait for the next one. I already know this module fairly well, even if I played one of the bad guys in my run. I don't want to take a chance of accidentally metagaming.
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Mixster

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2010, 07:36:25 AM »
Spoilered for getting in the way.

[spoiler]
Fleshrakers need 5 extra HD to become large. And natural bond does nothing if you are a single classed druid, so it's sorta worthless, because who multiclasses out of druid?

Natural Bond can offset the penalty for using a higher level AC, such as a Fleshraker.

A bead of Karma is in a strand of Prayer bands, which cost 45.800g, at 10th level you have 49.000g, so if you get nothing but that you can have your 10 minutes/day +4 caster level. To set up your buffs. Yes. If a druid spends a spell and all his WBL at being more awesome at damage dealing than you he can. A druid is high tier 1. Is that what you want this class to be?

1) A Bead of Karma does not have to be on a complete Strand of Prayer Beads. It can be on it's own. And since that's the only one anyone wants, 90% of Prayer Bead Strands are going to have just that one.

2) If a Druid spends a single spell and some of his WBL he can have have a class feature that is awesome at doing damage, and still have all his own actions to cast other spells.

3) Don't ever say the word Tier to me if you want to have a meaningful conversation.

4) I want my class to be able to keep up with a Druids Animal Companion with a single buff cast on it, yes. That's something I desire.

Though still technically better than most other glasscannons in every way.

Most other high damage dealers are not glass cannons. See, Druid. The Rogue is probably the most glass cannony of them all, and even he's not bad.


Some level appropriate opposition can stop uber chargers. Some can't. Those that can't die instantly in paste, and so DMs don't use them when a PC is playing an ubercharger. Which is the problem with Uberchargers, as I said.

Ok... Everyenemy in a 30ft radius sphere. Why is that so different from every enemy, is it often they are more than 60ft apart? I rarely see those encounters, but you may, depending on whether you fight in tightly cramped dungeons, the wilderness or the open skies.

Yes, I often see enemies more than 30ft apart. Especially when those enemies are smart, and especially when there are more than two of them.

Still hitting everyone in a big sphere is pretty much more than any other glass cannon can hope for.

But hitting for 2-3 times the damage and killing them in one round isn't. That's something the Storm Lord wishes he could do.

especially if your target is something that is hard to sneak attack.

I prefer Str damage, because it's more, and it actually works against things that are immune to Str damage for a feat (and a feat that does other things too) so you can add Elementals and people with fort armor to the list of constructs and undead as things you can deal with just fine.

But this besides the point, because we stop comparing damage to damage, but damage to other factors.

Actually, my point was that Rogues can do more damage and also have other things going on in addition to that. So... I guess I was right.

Ok I'll humor you.
If you have two +2 weapons you are using 16000 gold on it.

No, you have one weapon, and it costs 9000gp for it to be a +2 weapon. But if you did actually pay for real +enhancments, you'd be paying for a bow, not TWFing, because that's better.

If you have a dex of 24 as a human at this level, you have used an 18 on your dex (which is allright for a rogue, granted it is your most important stat therefore you off course put two +1 mods to your dex), and you have an item that grants you +4 dex. This item costs 16.000g.

I did miss add there. I meant for that to only be a 16 in dex.

Well you have a 20% miss chance alone because you are blinking, but let's conveniently forget about that shall we.

Long story short, no you don't suffer a miss chance throwing or shooting arrows. But let's not get into that right now, because it has nothing to do with the greater picture.

Now you can haste as well

Boots of Haste are pretty much Rogue Mandatory.

a stormlord could also get a wizard to turn him into a choker and double his damage output

That's a Su ability, and as such, not granted by anything short of Shapechange, which is personal. So no, he can't.

But do you really think you will hit with enough of those attacks that it matters? That's like about 2.5 hits on average, and you deal 5d6*2.5=15d6 precision damage and a whopping 5 damage to his strength.

Yes, I think +16/+16/+16/+16/+11 is probably going to hit against Flat footed touch AC. Also known as, 10.

With 4 feats, more gold than is allowed for his level and help, the usual main damage dealer, outdamages your area effect damage slightly when not aiming at a target that is immune to sneak attack

Nope Outdamages it substantially, against all enemies except oozes (and that can see the ethereal plane). Also, not more gold, since the flasker need not have any magic weapons at all.

and you don't take into account that the stormlord could use (cheaper if I might add) items or feats to boost him just as easily.

No, not really. Feats and items don't benefit the Storm Lord much at all at increasing his existing abilities. By design. Instead, it pays to invest them in other abilities.

How is flying gonna help you if you've dropped your weapon? Or if there is something else wearing you down?

You manufacture a Quarterstaff in zero seconds with a craft DC of zero, then charge for eleven billion damage. Don't be "worn down." Want you want to find, but can't think of by the way, is entangle. Being entangled prevents charges.

Like, I don't know, dispel magic, that loads of monsters have anyway.

Get a method of constant flight like Dragonborn Water Orc?

Heh I wonder if you know how Chain lightning works. Every target you choose that is in a 30ft radius sphere, yes you might as well want to cast a searing fireball, but that would cost you a feat, and targets that are hit would get a save for half damage. Also it would take up less space, and you wouldn't be able to do that as often per day. So yes you "might" as well be casting a searing fireball, except this effect is better and cheaper in every way.

Except of course the whole. Not being a Wizard, and therefore not having all sorts of abilities.

And using 95% of his WBL

No, using a small part of his WBL for an item that he wants to have anyway, because it also adds +1 to his Greater Magic Fang attack and damage, and makes all the rest of his buffs last longer and harder to dispel (and sometimes, Heart of Earth, provide greater benefit.)

So what balance did you set out for?

65% Same Game Test with significant utility functions.

Yeah fine.
I'm not discussing this any more with you.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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VennDygrem

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2010, 01:28:20 PM »
Man is it hard picking feats for an SLA-heavy homebrew class. >_>
On the one hand, few feats actually affect my class features. On the other hand, most of them are good enough on their own without any help.
A lot of those tome feats are pretty nice, but I don't have the BAB for the combat feats to be useful. *shrug*
----

osle, would I perhaps be able to take Faerie Mysteries Initiate? You said Dragon material was case by case, and while I'm going to go ahead and doubt you'll allow this one, I figured I'd ask. I may append this post with other questions.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 01:49:16 PM by VennDygrem »

Kaelik

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Re: 3.5 One of these Modules, DM needed.
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2010, 07:45:44 PM »
How much would you rule an Eternal Wand of Create Magic Tattoo costs? It doesn't have a formula for increased CL for Eternal Wands, and also, I don't think it takes into account material components at all based on the rules in the MIC, but it probably should.

EDIT: Kak

Basic theme: He's all crazy master of elements, but also in touch with his dark nature.

I'll wait till I know where we are and what we are doing, but he can start anywhere depending on modifications, I gather that we will be fighting drow, possibly cooperating with drow, and generally being underground a fair bit.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 08:02:25 PM by Kaelik »