Author Topic: Low-Power, High Fantasy?  (Read 13863 times)

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Benly

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2010, 08:14:43 PM »
I think that the issue with using Lord of the Rings as a comparison for 3.5, is that the standards are all over the place. It seems that all of the comparisons that were linked thus far are skewed to the writer's opinion. So, lets compare by making a list of characters and their feats.

Aragorn: A crazy amount of tracking and survival, several mass combats, where he is credited with at least 6+ kills(moria), intimidating Sauron.

Legolas: HELMS DEEP. The contest with Gimli.

Gimli: See above.

Ok, so given the fact that the Urak-Hai are more than typical orcs, I would stat them as similar to Bugbears. Killing 6 in a fight, with out any real injury means that the CR should have been well below the level of the party. So, Aragorn killing 6 of them would be a CR 11 encounter I believe.

Gimli and Legolas demolish a large number as well. I seriously do not see how they would be 3-5th level.

At 3-5th level, the 20ish orcs in Moria + Cave Troll, should have definately killed someone. While you can claim DM fiat, that is dodging the issue. Not to mention the mass combats. Boromir takes out how many Uruk-Hai at the river?

Overall this is really a fruitless debate, 3.5 can be played as High Fantasy, but it requires the DM and the Players to be on board and make appropriate choices.

Also, how would you stat people like Beorn and Tom Bombadil? Clearly Tom was quite powerful by himself.

The uruk-hai bit smacks a bit of "clearly LotR orcs are more badass because they threatened these badass characters, and clearly these characters are high-level because they smacked down badass super-orcs." Pegging uruk-hai as bugbears is a bit arbitrary; you can make an equally good case for them being half-orcs with PC class levels (at least part of their being hardcore is supposed to be because of their elite training) while ordinary orc soldiers are level 1 orc warriors.

D&D trolls are not Tolkien trolls, they're Three Hearts & Three Lions trolls. Tolkien trolls are more similar to D&D ogres in depiction than they are to D&D trolls. An ogre and a swarm of orcs is a noteworthy fight for a level 5 party but not an inevitably fatal one.

Beorn and Tom Bombadil are NPCs with non-PC-available abilities. Tom in particular is nonhuman and probably has extensive abilities owing to whatever kind of bizarre fey he is.

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2010, 08:18:57 PM »
But dnd normal orcs are better than dnd half-orcs.

Plus,  LotR orcs = goblins.

I'd say uruk-hai are probably water orcs, normal orcs are just goblins.
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Lunaramblings

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2010, 10:10:58 PM »
I think that the issue with using Lord of the Rings as a comparison for 3.5, is that the standards are all over the place. It seems that all of the comparisons that were linked thus far are skewed to the writer's opinion. So, lets compare by making a list of characters and their feats.

Aragorn: A crazy amount of tracking and survival, several mass combats, where he is credited with at least 6+ kills(moria), intimidating Sauron.

Legolas: HELMS DEEP. The contest with Gimli.

Gimli: See above.

Ok, so given the fact that the Urak-Hai are more than typical orcs, I would stat them as similar to Bugbears. Killing 6 in a fight, with out any real injury means that the CR should have been well below the level of the party. So, Aragorn killing 6 of them would be a CR 11 encounter I believe.

Gimli and Legolas demolish a large number as well. I seriously do not see how they would be 3-5th level.

At 3-5th level, the 20ish orcs in Moria + Cave Troll, should have definately killed someone. While you can claim DM fiat, that is dodging the issue. Not to mention the mass combats. Boromir takes out how many Uruk-Hai at the river?

Overall this is really a fruitless debate, 3.5 can be played as High Fantasy, but it requires the DM and the Players to be on board and make appropriate choices.

Also, how would you stat people like Beorn and Tom Bombadil? Clearly Tom was quite powerful by himself.

The uruk-hai bit smacks a bit of "clearly LotR orcs are more badass because they threatened these badass characters, and clearly these characters are high-level because they smacked down badass super-orcs." Pegging uruk-hai as bugbears is a bit arbitrary; you can make an equally good case for them being half-orcs with PC class levels (at least part of their being hardcore is supposed to be because of their elite training) while ordinary orc soldiers are level 1 orc warriors.

D&D trolls are not Tolkien trolls, they're Three Hearts & Three Lions trolls. Tolkien trolls are more similar to D&D ogres in depiction than they are to D&D trolls. An ogre and a swarm of orcs is a noteworthy fight for a level 5 party but not an inevitably fatal one.

Beorn and Tom Bombadil are NPCs with non-PC-available abilities. Tom in particular is nonhuman and probably has extensive abilities owing to whatever kind of bizarre fey he is.

See, there in lies the rub. There are plenty of reasons to believe that the characters could be anything you want. Truthfully though, everything I have seen points to them being higher than 5th level. The mass combats alone make me think that they would have to be higher level than that. Now, I get the desire to paint them as closer to average, but I just don't see why. As someone pointed out, the saves that the characters made alone suggest that they are higher level. So, they made some saves that really wouldn't be possible for lower level characters, they fought in massive battles killing a ridiculous number of foes without taking any substantial loss, and the manner in which they are described suggests they are more than low level. In a world where there are great dragons, liches, death knights, etc. it makes sense that the heroes that oppose them are more than low level. I also think that this basically boils down to the type of game you want. It is not impossible to play a high fantasy game at high level. It depends on the players and the DM. If you want a high fantasy game, you can run one, but you can also do it over 20 levels. If players want to twink out and make high powered characters, this is more difficult. Honestly, none of the characters from LotR were particularly optimized characters.

Aragorn would be some combination of Fighter/Ranger/Paladin, Legolas some type of Fighter most likely, focusing on bows. Gimli, the same, a fighter with an axe. Nothing special. Gandalf appeared to be a mage with a proclivity for Fire magic, so perhaps some type of an Evocation Specialist probably barring necromancy and something else, I would really have to look back at the book to figure out what, though I am leaning toward Transmutation as Illusion, Enchantment and Evocation seem to sum up his spell selection. The Hobbits, well Sam was a Fighter, Pippen was a rogue, Merry a fighter/rogue, Frodo is the most difficult. He didn't seem particularly gifted at combat, he didn't possess magic, he basically just walked. I guess we could call him a monk, he certainly made good saves, and they are good at that I suppose.

Honestly, there is no reason that with these kind of characters, built for story rather than Uberness, that you could not keep a High Fantasy feel going through all twenty levels.

altpersona

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2010, 10:14:11 PM »
the lotr hobbits are all commoners, bilbo maybe not.
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2010, 10:21:26 PM »
the lotr hobbits are all commoners, bilbo maybe not.
Maybe with Survivor levels?

altpersona

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2010, 10:54:32 PM »
ya, maybe
The goal of power is power. - idk
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Bauglir

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2010, 11:27:15 PM »
The fact that Gandalf was called a Wizard is meaningless. He's quite clearly a Divine Bard.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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j0lt

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #87 on: September 20, 2010, 05:53:48 AM »
The fact that Gandalf was called a Wizard is meaningless. He's quite clearly a Divine Bard.

I'd say closer to a base class Loremaster.
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #88 on: September 20, 2010, 03:31:38 PM »
I think that part of what is screwing people up is that Tolkien's magic system doesn't jibe with D+D's.  His magic system is very much a gradual thing, often based around creation, force of will, and gradual shifts of large amounts of the worlds "power".

For example, Sauron and his lieutenants have used their power to gather and organize a large quantity of orcs and others.  Those creatures are normally chaotic and unorganized, not well suited to being in massive organizations.  Lothlorien and Rivendell have been imbued(by the elven power players) with strong magical fields that promote well being in friends and confusion and weakness in enemies.  These are all effects that cover huge areas of the world, or affect many thousands of beings.  Morale effects are also quite prevalent, with the Nazgul and Boromir(horn of Gondor) applying massive debuffs, and people like Gandalf and Aragorn(and many others) providing quite large buffs.

D+D players are more used to thinking of magic in terms of spells with definite effects.

Although it's not a perfect analogy, Tolkien's high level magic functions sort of like High level presence or dominate effects in Vampire.  Affecting large numbers of beings in subtle(or not too subtle) ways.. sometimes over generations or even centuries.

So "Low-Power, High Fantasy" isn't really accurate... D+D just doesn't have the right sort of "High Power" supernatural effects.

Gods_Trick

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #89 on: September 21, 2010, 12:01:43 AM »

  Wizards also specialise in Lore. Radagast learnt beast lore, Saruman Ring lore and Gandalf specialised in ... Hobbit lore  :rollseyes Translating this to D&D, its a hybrid chasis and a Harleys engine  :p

  Uruk Hai are badass in that world. Cant really peg them to D&D orcs because your average orc is badass to a commoner *shrugs*. My guess would be physical stats wise the Nine Walkers excepting the hobbits are the Epic of that world; mentally they blow D&D characters out of the water because Will and Morale saves aren't static checks for them, its powered by plot. AKA action points like crazy, maybe even SAGA destiny points.

  Not sure if that means much, just reiterating the point that the adversaties LoTR characters faced and D&D characters face are assymetrical and unequal.

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #90 on: September 21, 2010, 12:26:46 AM »
Perhaps Gandalf would be best done by the savage progression of a Ghaele? After all, he is an outsider who serves a divine order. Wizard is merely a title.

We could also work out way from the top and start with the creatures that none of the heroes want to encounter, the Nazguls. I'd say they are Ghost Hexblades who focus purely on debuffing their opponents. 

SneeR

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2011, 03:53:33 PM »
I always sort of pictured Gandalf with 5+ levels of paladin for his fighting prowess, smiting the balrog, and summoning Shadowfax. Then maybe enough wizard to get loremaster. Not extremely high level, actually.
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I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2011, 07:41:48 PM »
I always sort of pictured Gandalf with 5+ levels of paladin for his fighting prowess, smiting the balrog, and summoning Shadowfax. Then maybe enough wizard to get loremaster. Not extremely high level, actually.

If we were to go with Paladin than a Sword of the Arcane Order build might be more appropriate.

SneeR

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2011, 11:38:23 PM »
If we were to go with Paladin than a Sword of the Arcane Order build might be more appropriate.

Wow, just looked that up. A very potent feat, and I think it would be perfect for Gandalf. He never displays really high level spells, but his caster level is definitely high, so this fits flavorfully. Cool!
The answer to everything:
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SneeR
[spoiler]
I don't know if the designers meant you to take Skill Focus for every feat.
Sounds a little OP.

The monk is clearly the best class, no need to optimize here. What you are doing is overkill.

It's like people who have no idea what a turn signal is. They ruin it for everyone else.
When another driver brandishes a holy symbol and begins glowing with divine light, seek cover or get spattered with zombie brains. I do not see what is so complicated about this.
[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2011, 12:24:26 AM »
Wonderful. Gandalf if actually a Kell-tastrophe.






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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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JaronK

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2011, 02:29:48 AM »
Is there a way to do E6 with really low-magic items?  Am I basically describing a different RPG?

Easy version:  Give people the numerical bonuses they should have at a given level for free.  For example, starting at level 4 any weapon they wield counts as having a +1 enhancement bonus automatically.  Now forbid casting classes (obviously) and make sure there's enough functional non magic tools to do what's generally needed, and then greatly increase the cost of magic items (so they're really rare for all but the most basic of things).

Works pretty well, actually, but you'll probably need a Binder or Crusader to cover healing.

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2011, 03:10:42 AM »
Ok, as to the high-level spells bit... this seems appropriate: http://failbook.failblog.org/2011/01/28/funny-facebook-fails-gandalf-or-dumbledore/

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2011, 03:14:40 AM »
Ok, as to the high-level spells bit... this seems appropriate: http://failbook.failblog.org/2011/01/28/funny-facebook-fails-gandalf-or-dumbledore/
You could really make a case either way. :p

JaronK

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2011, 05:53:50 AM »
Gandalf is a DMPC.  The hobbits were Experts or Commoners, Aragorn was a Ranger, Llegolas was also a Ranger but played by the DM's girlfriend so he let the elf get away with some stuff that shouldn't have been allowed.

The players got so annoyed by Gandalf stealing the limelight that when the Balrog showed up they basically said "screw it, let the stupid DMPC handle it" and wandered off so he died and they were like "FINALLY" and then he came back shinier than ever, much to everyone's annoyance. 

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2011, 06:01:50 AM »
Gandalf is a DMPC.  The hobbits were Experts or Commoners, Aragorn was a Ranger, Llegolas was also a Ranger but played by the DM's girlfriend so he let the elf get away with some stuff that shouldn't have been allowed.

The players got so annoyed by Gandalf stealing the limelight that when the Balrog showed up they basically said "screw it, let the stupid DMPC handle it" and wandered off so he died and they were like "FINALLY" and then he came back shinier than ever, much to everyone's annoyance. 

JaronK

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