Author Topic: Low-Power, High Fantasy?  (Read 13862 times)

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McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2010, 08:37:56 AM »
And then there's the fact the skill system falls completely apart after level 6

The skill system falls apart thanks to a 2nd level spell. Or 1st level, if you consider Grease.
Yup.

From someone on 339 about taking 10. It breaks down earlier by actually rolling:
[spoiler]I mean, just look at skill totals at 9th level and above. You're doing some crazy :censored: on a regular basis, and most of the time you're not even thinking twice about it.This deserves an illustration, I think.
9th level Bard. He has 12 ranks of Perform, started with 16 Cha and increased it twice to 18 (+4). He also has a masterwork instrument (+2) and a Circlet of Persuasion (+3). His Perform modifier is now 12+4+2+3=+21. This means that, by taking ten, he nails a 31 every time. According to the PHB, this means that by playing on street corners, he will eventually attract the attention of extraplanar beings. Gimble will be sitting around drinking and playing his lute when a genie bamfs in and asks the gnome to perform at his kid's Bar Mitzvah.
9th level Rogue. He has 12 ranks of Balance, started with 16 Dex and boosted it twice to 18 (+4). He gets a +2 synergy bonus from Tumble ranks, for a total modifier of 12+4+2=+18. Taking 10, he will, every time, be able to move at full speed across a one inch wide marble-covered beam. (18+10-5=23 for the check, 20+2(scree) =22 for the DC.)
9th level Barbarian. 12 ranks of Climb, now has 18 (+4) Strength, for a final modifier of 12+4=+16. Taking 10, he gets a 26. He can now climb most mountains while raining, moving 40 feet every 6 seconds. (Check is 26-5=21 for accelerated climbing, DC is 15+5=20 for climbing a rough natural rock surface that's slippery.)
9th level Swashbuckler. 12 ranks of Jump, 12 (+1) Strength, +2 synergy from Tumble. His modifier is 12+1+2=+15. Taking 10 gets him a 25. The female world record for the long jump is (7.52 meters)*(3.28 feet/meter) = 24.7 feet. This character beats that every time he wants to. The men's record is 8.95*3.28= 29.3 feet, which his character could swing pretty easily if he so desired. When the character rolls instead of taking 10, he can hit as much as 35 feet, blowing past the world record by two yards.
9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.
Because it's fun to pick on Fighters, let's say this woman is Fighter. We'll generously give her a Wisdom of 14 (+2), which means she needs 4.5 ranks to beat the spread and win the check with a 26.5 (again assuming taking 10). Since spot is cross-class, the soonest she could get that many is at 6th level.
May the gods help you if this guy uses Disguise Self to boost his check by another 10. Or if he's a Bard, kicking his Charisma up another couple notches.
9th level Monk. 12 ranks in sense motive, 16 (+3) Wisdom. Final modifier is 12+3=+15. Taking 10, he can instantly tell whether a person is under the effects of Charm Person or not, every time. (DC 25) And that isn't "I've a sneaking suspicion that something is wrong here" so much as it's "Hi, my name is Benedict Thelonious. Also, you're charmed."
9th level Bard again. 12 "ranks" in Speak Language nets him 12 languages, because Bards are awesome like that. There are only 20 of the things listed in the PHB, one of them is Druidic, and he starts with a few because of race and intelligence. He learns this from hanging out in bars, and in addition to everything else he can do. I don't think there are many people in the world that can boast that kind of repertoire, and finding one in his mid-20s that's also a competent in battle, magic (which we can approximate to some degree with science or technology), and whatever this guy is burning his other 5+Int skill points on is fairly definitely impossible.
9th level Ranger goes tracking. 12 ranks in Survival, 14 (+2) Wisdom, +4 from Search and Know: Nature synergy, and +2 from some manner of tracking kit. Modifier is 12+2+4+2= +20, which means he takes 10 to get a 30. To match this, the DC is going to look like this: 4+5+1+20. That comes from tracking a single Toad (+4 DC for being Diminutive) that is covering his tracks (+5) after an hour of rainfall (+1) over bare rock (20).
By 9th level, you're pretty much past the point of being able to use "It's not realistic!" as any sort of relevant complaint in a D&D environment. Oh, and on a similar note, I reference the Proud Nails (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a) article on the Wizards D&D page which notes that olympic archers are 7th level Rangers, the weightlifters hit 23-24 strength tops, and that a 6th level Monk with Dash can set a marathon record. (Alternatively, he could be 9th level or take the Run feat and absolutely blow it away.) Anything past that is, pretty much by definition, superhuman.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 08:40:34 AM by McPoyo »
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2010, 10:31:05 AM »
"9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.
Because it's fun to pick on Fighters, let's say this woman is Fighter. We'll generously give her a Wisdom of 14 (+2), which means she needs 4.5 ranks to beat the spread and win the check with a 26.5 (again assuming taking 10). Since spot is cross-class, the soonest she could get that many is at 6th level.
May the gods help you if this guy uses Disguise Self to boost his check by another 10. Or if he's a Bard, kicking his Charisma up another couple notches."

I pulled similar shenanigans with a Binder using Naberius at 1st level to seduce the mayor's daughter (tm), telling them that I was the Paladin in our group.  DM rolled for preggers, and yup, it happened.  Then, the Paladin decided to marry her b/c his Int wasn't good enough to figure out that he hadn't done it (also, I Bluffed him to believe it, as well).  And hilarity ensued.  Coo-coo!

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2010, 12:30:03 PM »
I pulled similar shenanigans with a Binder using Naberius at 1st level to seduce the mayor's daughter (tm), telling them that I was the Paladin in our group.  DM rolled for preggers, and yup, it happened.  Then, the Paladin decided to marry her b/c his Int wasn't good enough to figure out that he hadn't done it (also, I Bluffed him to believe it, as well).  And hilarity ensued.  Coo-coo!
:lol Dude... that's... that's... I can't even summarize how funny that is. How could he even think he might have done it? Was he an alcoholic paladin?  :lmao
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2010, 01:07:59 PM »
Well, with a 5 Int (rolled stats), we all said that he should definitely play a Paladin.  Naberius gives Disguise Self, so there were witnesses about the seduction (though not the act).  So there were enough witnesses to say he did it.

But, honestly, at an Int of 5, do you think he'd understand the mechanics of how reproduction works?  I once lived on a bus route which took me by several half-way houses on the way to my last year at grad school (Gainesville, a totally wacky city).  The people on that route were... well... they didn't understand this sort of thing... really...  but were very open about their sex lives.  It was an interesting time...  I bought a car and a parking pass after one week.

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2010, 02:23:17 PM »
Well, with a 5 Int (rolled stats), we all said that he should definitely play a Paladin.  Naberius gives Disguise Self, so there were witnesses about the seduction (though not the act).  So there were enough witnesses to say he did it.

But, honestly, at an Int of 5, do you think he'd understand the mechanics of how reproduction works?  I once lived on a bus route which took me by several half-way houses on the way to my last year at grad school (Gainesville, a totally wacky city).  The people on that route were... well... they didn't understand this sort of thing... really...  but were very open about their sex lives.  It was an interesting time...  I bought a car and a parking pass after one week.
I've seen plenty of 5 year olds who understood perfectly well. Int 5 isn't prohibitive of that.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2010, 02:28:23 PM »
You think a 5 year old has a 5 Int?  I don't believe that.

emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2010, 02:30:04 PM »
let me clarify -- I've never seen the specific comparison to which he was referring.

Oh shit, that makes sense too. You scared me there for a minute. I wonder if anyone posting here hasn''t seen LoTR... That would be odd.

I pulled similar shenanigans ...

Hahahah, stupid Paladins...

You think a 5 year old has a 5 Int?  I don't believe that.

I was just going to say... Animals have an Int of 3, and 5 year old children are smarter than adults for certain things. ( i.e. Languages)

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2010, 02:32:01 PM »
You think a 5 year old has a 5 Int?  I don't believe that.
According to the D20 Cthulu rules, yes. Which is the only canon source for child stats.

Also, comparatively: Just below Troll, equivalent to Griffins

Also: Languages are based on skills, not stats. Pwnt.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2010, 02:36:26 PM »
You think a 5 year old has a 5 Int?  I don't believe that.
According to the D20 Cthulu rules, yes. Which is the only canon source for child stats.
Bah, that's just stupid. 5 year olds aren't really less intelligent than adults on average. They're just less experienced. Back when I was in school, they gave IQ tests to us in the 2nd grade (7 year olds). Those IQ scores were supposed to be basically good for life, not representative of what you were like at 7.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2010, 02:46:39 PM »
Also: Languages are based on skills, not stats. Pwnt.

Not at level 1, and what child would be a higher level? Pwnt. :D

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2010, 02:58:01 PM »
Also: Languages are based on skills, not stats. Pwnt.

Not at level 1, and what child would be a higher level? Pwnt. :D
show me a five year old who speaks more than 2 languages fluently?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2010, 02:59:35 PM »
You think a 5 year old has a 5 Int?  I don't believe that.
According to the D20 Cthulu rules, yes. Which is the only canon source for child stats.
Bah, that's just stupid. 5 year olds aren't really less intelligent than adults on average. They're just less experienced. Back when I was in school, they gave IQ tests to us in the 2nd grade (7 year olds). Those IQ scores were supposed to be basically good for life, not representative of what you were like at 7.
and yet, that isn't how int works in the game.

Also, IQ fluctuates over your life. It's comparative to peer group knowledge, not total ability to learn (not even including the horrible bias for ethnicity and wealth bracket)
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2010, 03:04:06 PM »
You think a 5 year old has a 5 Int?  I don't believe that.
According to the D20 Cthulu rules, yes. Which is the only canon source for child stats.
Bah, that's just stupid. 5 year olds aren't really less intelligent than adults on average. They're just less experienced. Back when I was in school, they gave IQ tests to us in the 2nd grade (7 year olds). Those IQ scores were supposed to be basically good for life, not representative of what you were like at 7.
and yet, that isn't how int works in the game.
In what game? Call of Cthulu? You consider that canon? For what? Certainly not D&D.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2010, 03:29:53 PM »
Any d20 based game.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2010, 03:34:12 PM »
Oh, geez... What are we talking about?  Lets agree to disagree, lol...  I think we played it right, as it was the best thing, ever.

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2010, 03:58:19 PM »
Oh, geez... What are we talking about?  Lets agree to disagree, lol...  I think we played it right, as it was the best thing, ever.
agreed :)
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2010, 05:01:43 PM »
show me a five year old who speaks more than 2 languages fluently?

My little brother 1 year after we moved to America was 6 and spoke two languages fluently.  :)

edit: never mind, you said MORE than two languages.
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emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2010, 05:10:04 PM »
My little brother''s friend (and my friend''s little brother), had a Spanish babysitter, a french father, and an English mother. My cousins parents are also French and English, and their grandmother speaks only Italian. Montreal is a melting pot, so it really isn''t rare in my head.

Also, IQ fluctuates over your life. It's comparative to peer group knowledge, not total ability to learn (not even including the horrible bias for ethnicity and wealth bracket)

I was trying to think of how to say that earlier, but I''m sick, and my brain''s mush.

EDIT: On an unrelated, but very impressive, note; my Italian teacher in CEGEP (Quebec grade 11/freshman year of university) told my class of a student, effectively in grade 11 mind you, who spoke upwards of 35 languages fluently. Blew my mind.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 05:17:56 PM by emaNsdrawkcaB »

McPoyo

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2010, 05:10:48 PM »
show me a five year old who speaks more than 2 languages fluently?

My little brother 1 year after we moved to America was 6 and spoke two languages fluently.  :)

edit: never mind, you said MORE than two languages.
yeah, 2 or 3 is perfectly within skill point allowances :)
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Low-Power, High Fantasy?
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2010, 05:36:26 PM »
I think it would be better if in-laws didn't speak the same language as you.  Just my 2 cents. :backtotopic

Has anyone tried a super-low point buy, or something similar?  I've been considering eliminating stats entirely, and instead giving bonuses based on class/type or level/HD to certain things, then just removing all stat-feat requirements.  I know thats a little towards 4e, but it doesn't change the customization options.

Is there a way to do E6 with really low-magic items?  Am I basically describing a different RPG?