Author Topic: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)  (Read 7167 times)

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KaizokuVizard

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Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« on: September 14, 2010, 12:23:47 AM »
My build is thus far planned at:


Side A: Wizard.  Period. (Allows for the bonus feats, and full caster progression)
Side B: 2 rogue, 3 Fighter.  For some combat/skill bonuses.  Then we jump to the wizard power ups.  4 Mindbender, 7 IotSV, 5 Fatemaker, 10 Information Mage, and 5 Archmage (That's all i have so far, to level 36)

She's a human, with powerful stats.  Started with 21, 20, 19, 17, 17, and 16.

I know most people don't go above 1 in Mindbender, but the other 3 were just kind of filler until I could meet IotSV pre-reqs, and plus Eternal Charm could have it's uses.  Information Mage is from Dynasties and Demagogues the Sourcebook of Political Intrigue, and basically gives Information related bonuses.  Two bonus feats, and at level 10 it gives Identify, Clairvoyance, Scrying, Analyze Dweomer, and Greater Scrying @ will as Spell Like abilities. 

I can easily dump anything here.  I'd prefer to keep IotSV because, obviously, it makes me virtually unkillable.   So, suggestions, thoughts, etc.?

(Also a random note: I dropped the familiar for a bonus feat @ level 1.)

Rebel7284

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 12:32:38 AM »
You know, the increase to caster level from both sides doesn't stack if you take both wizard and a wizard prestige class at the same time.
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KaizokuVizard

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 12:55:20 AM »
I do know that, but if I alternate them, I lose bonus feats which are important/helpful at epic levels

Rebel7284

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 01:07:40 AM »
A) Many classes give bonus feats.
B) Class features are better than feats.  This is why wizards > fighters :P
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KaizokuVizard

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 01:32:23 AM »
This is true, but I actually can't see many, any, other prestige classes I can fit into this build anyway.

Oh, forgot, one other rule.  Only one unfinished prestige class at a time, so I can't do 4 levels of fate, 1 of mindbender, 3 of archmage all in the same build.  I'd have to do 5 of fate, 1 mindbender, 3 archmage, then either finish archmage or mindbender before I could pick up a new prestige class.

Also there's the whole "you can't take 2 prestige classes at the same time"  and the XP penalty since i already have two other base classes

X-Codes

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 02:22:01 AM »
2 Rogue/3 Fighter is horrible.  Just go with Ranger, take either Archery style or look for alternative styles listed in various books/online sources (others would know better than I where, exactly, they would be).

Another problem is that your build has no focus whatsoever.  Veils are more or less just as vulnerable to MDJ's as anything else, and in the Epic game that's going to be everywhere.  Further, all those at-wills given by Information Mage aren't all that special in the epic game, either.  IMO, you should go with one of those PrCs you listed and Archmage.

Mindbender progression:

Levels 1-5: Wizard/Ranger
Level 6: Mindbender/Ranger
Level 7: Wizard/Mindbender
Level 8-15: Repeat 6/7
Level 16-20: Archmage/Ranger
Level 21: Epic Mindbender/Ranger
Level 22: Wizard/Epic Mindbender
Level 23+: Repeat 21/22

Should treat each class separately for tracking bonus epic feats, if you allow both sides to progress Epic Bonus Feats.  If not, just use the Mindbender progression.

For the other classes it's a lot simpler.  Make one side Ranger and the other side Wizard/Information Mage (assuming it's a full caster)/Archmage, or make one side Ranger and the other side Wizard/Master Abjurer/Iot7V, or swap out Fatespinner 4/Wizard 1 for any Archmage listed above. 

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 07:57:08 AM »
What books are open?

How is LA/whatever tracked?
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KaizokuVizard

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 08:18:02 AM »
Any book is available (Prefer no 3rd party, but will look/check)
If there's LA, there's no buyoff, but it is only on one side  (So I could be a level 5 wizard/+5 LA creature)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 08:33:49 AM »
You might want to consider playing a black ethergaunt or a sharn.  Both give you massive amounts of racial casting for a low cost in levels, and a side order of great abilites (sharns, for example, have a minimum of +8 to each score, three actions per round, and a boatload of specials).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 09:39:40 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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fuinjutsu

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 09:38:54 AM »
You might want to consider playing a black ethergaunt or a sharn.  Both give you massive amounts of racial casting for a low cost in levels, and a side order of great abilites (sharns, for example, have a minimum of +8 to each score, and a boatload of abilities).

+1 to the above.  If yoru DM doesn't enforce bonus feat lists strictly, Epic Meldshapers get a bonus feat every other level.  Epic incarnate can be pretty nifty.  Everyone loves continuous true seeing.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Mixster

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2010, 12:49:06 PM »
How would the DM handle things like Master Spellthief?

Be a master Spellthief/Bard/Sublime Chord/UM one one side of the progression and a wizard on the other.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

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RobbyPants

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 01:36:19 PM »
X-Code's ranger suggestion works.

If you have your heart set on fighter/rogue, switch it to fighter 2/rogue 3.  You net the same BAB, bet more skill points, you actually get class features, and all it costs you is 2 HP on average.

Regarding Mindbender, either alternate levels like X-Codes suggested, or only take one level.  You'd be better off taking wizard//rogue levels than wizard//mindbender levels after Mindbender 1.


What level is the game starting at?  Are you planning your build in advance, or is it starting at 20?  If you're starting at a high level, any book is open, and LA applies to one side, you could always do the whole black ethergaunt trick.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 01:59:03 PM »
Needs more Circle/Node Magic with Incantatrix.  At this level you can reclaim banned schools (or just spend the feat to get them all as Transmutations from a ToAL, or play an epic Shadowcraft Mage...like they aren't epic to begin with).

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Incantatrix +9/Iot7FV 7|||Black Ethergaunt or Solar or Sharn?  Really, from what you can pack on the Wizard side, adding gestalt feels like cheating :P  For ME even.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 03:39:46 PM »
What level are you actually starting play at? And what level do you reasonably expect to get to?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 05:01:18 PM »
What type of wizard are you going for?
What level are you starting at?
What level do you think the game is going to get to?
Why lose a familiar in gestalt?
Isn't Mindbender a 1 level dip?
Are you allowed to put racial HD on one side of the gestalt?
How optimized are your fellow players?
How do you feel about throwing in some levels of Factotum?
And Warblade?

KaizokuVizard

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2010, 07:30:14 PM »
What type of wizard are you going for?
What level are you starting at?
What level do you think the game is going to get to?
Why lose a familiar in gestalt?
Isn't Mindbender a 1 level dip?
Are you allowed to put racial HD on one side of the gestalt?
How optimized are your fellow players?
How do you feel about throwing in some levels of Factotum?
And Warblade?

I'm going for, well, basically an uber powerful General caster.  I need to be able to both survive on my own, blow everybody up, and help the shifter blow everything up so he doesn't feel useless.
Technically it already started, as human, but I've got the leeway to make some changes.  I doubt I can swing a sharn/black ethergaunt, but something humanish, or a shapeshifter that can appear humanish.  And we're at level....13 now.
It is wide open.  If the two of us get bored, it'll end next week, if we get busy, indefinitely (happened to our last gmae)  if we keep going, we've gotten up to level 50 before.
I've never used/liked familiars, and always preferred to drop them for a feat to help qualify for Prestige Classes.
Most people see it that way, yes.  But like i said, i saw nothing else of significant interest to put in there, it was just filler levels before IotSV (also I can only have one Prestige class unfinished at a time, so i can't do Mindbender 1, Fatemaker 3, IotSV 7.  I'd have to finish Fatemaker or Mindbender before I could pick up IotSV)
Racial HD on one side of Gestalt, yes.
Well, I don't know.  He's not terribly optimized normally, however this time I've suggested he take his druid levels and pick up Planar Sheperd, and sent him the links for Druid Handbook/Planar Shepherd handbook.
Factotum never seemed interested to me, and Warblade doesn't seem to fit the character.  She's a wizard, through and through.  Her goal is a combination resurrection of Netheril/Imasker.

Rebel7284

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 11:00:05 PM »
1. XP penalties are stupid to begin with.  Really silly in gestalt.

2. Wait, so fighter fits the flavor (an ODD number of levels, Lol!) but Warblade doesn't O.o

3. Not sure why you don't like factotum.  You seem to like flexibility and getting a free standard action every combat is made of win.

4. IoSV is good, but not as amazing as you seem to think.  Both Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper are WAY above it AND incantatrix gives a bonus metamagic feat every 4 levels.

Some level 13 builds.  I can expand on any you like
Middle aged Human:
Wizard 5/Incanatrix 3/IoSV 5 // Factotum 8/Warblade 5
- Favored class any so factotum doesn't give any XP penalties. 
- Instant metamagic
- Max IoSV
- 5th Level maneuver

Caution
Phrenic Gnome:
Wizard 5/Dweomerkeeper 2/Wizard 3/Deomerkeeper 3 // LA 2/Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Cleric 3
- DMM Heighten and supernatural spell for Supernatural Shadow Miracles 1/day or more
- Manifesting.
- Initate of Mystra feat to cast in antimagic fields.

Archivist 13 // Dread Necromancer 1/Cleric 4/Dweomerkeeper 8
- Most arcane AND Divine spells.
- TWO turning pools for Metamagic abuse
- Plenty of supernatural and spontaneous spells
- Close to Dweomerkeeper's Amazing capstone
- Initiate of Mystra

 
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 11:06:23 PM »
4. IoSV is good, but not as amazing as you seem to think.  Both Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper are WAY above it AND incantatrix gives a bonus metamagic feat every 4 levels.  
Well... that depends on how you interpret it. If the veils both protect your spells from being supressed by an AMF, but still allow you to cast inside of one, that cranks it up a few notches... and I think that both RAW and RAI that's what happens, per the RC "nerf" on AMF not blocking LoE. An Iot7V could stand inside an AMF and lob spells out of it, all the while still benefiting from his own buffs. The AMF would have to be centered on someone else, but Shapechange cast on a familiar to turn it into a beholder takes care of that. The familiar-beholder hovers behind you (invisibly, probably) with its big AMF eye cone pointed at you, and your enemy. So you're invulnerable to his spells, his buffs are suppressed, and you can destroy him with Orb spells, or whatever.

And just because of tricks like that, I think the OP is highly undervaluing familiars...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 11:08:32 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

KaizokuVizard

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2010, 11:47:34 PM »
Wizard 5/Incanatrix 3/IoSV 5 // Factotum 8/Warblade 5
- Favored class any so factotum doesn't give any XP penalties. 
- Instant metamagic
- Max IoSV
- 5th Level maneuver

Sounds interesting, though I doubt i'd use the maneuvers much.  and yeah, i realized later (enough to smack myself)  Odd level of fighter?  What a pointless thing.  The Fighter was basically "i learned how to swing a sword as part of my training, and don't totally suck like most wizards, my semi-noble background required me to learn this"

KaizokuVizard

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Re: Opinions on this Gestalt Wizard build? (3.5)
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2010, 11:58:37 PM »
4. IoSV is good, but not as amazing as you seem to think.  Both Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper are WAY above it AND incantatrix gives a bonus metamagic feat every 4 levels.  
Well... that depends on how you interpret it. If the veils both protect your spells from being supressed by an AMF, but still allow you to cast inside of one, that cranks it up a few notches... and I think that both RAW and RAI that's what happens, per the RC "nerf" on AMF not blocking LoE. An Iot7V could stand inside an AMF and lob spells out of it, all the while still benefiting from his own buffs. The AMF would have to be centered on someone else, but Shapechange cast on a familiar to turn it into a beholder takes care of that. The familiar-beholder hovers behind you (invisibly, probably) with its big AMF eye cone pointed at you, and your enemy. So you're invulnerable to his spells, his buffs are suppressed, and you can destroy him with Orb spells, or whatever.

And just because of tricks like that, I think the OP is highly undervaluing familiars...

That's a decent idea, that I'd never really considered.  Also, as for Incanatrix...i don't know how much the idea of banning a school appeals to me.  Then again, Necromancy doesn't have many good spells, and neither does Evocation.  Though Evocation is very useful in terms of army destruction, and necromancy gives me army of undead + the slay seed at epic levels.  Never ban Divination, Conjuration, or Transmutation.  Can't ban Abjuration, leaving Illusion, Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy.  Illusion doesn't seem like a good thing to ban, leaving the other 3...maybe Enchantment?  Not sure.  Enchantment has the afflict seed...Illusion the Conceal seed...(See this is why i don't ban schools, I invariably want what I've banned.)