Author Topic: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?  (Read 25771 times)

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archangel.arcanis

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2010, 06:53:30 PM »
So when is it applied? I'm trying to fill in the gaps of what you are saying as it doesn't make sense to me.
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McPoyo

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2010, 06:55:43 PM »
Especially since you now seem to be claiming that what doesn't make it work makes it work because it doesn't work but it does?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Hallack

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2010, 07:17:05 PM »
My position is essentially that DMM works on Heighten with the proviso that the spell level increase for Heighten is determined before you apply DMM, not simultaneously, or arbitrarily.

You have added a proviso (that's not in the rules) to keep your own interpretation from contradicting itself as your interpretation of DMM not knowing the +X keeping it from functioning would be prohibitive both within and beyond a character's normal range of spell levels.  That interpretation would mean that DMM simply can not function with Heighten due to no predefined cost.

If a variant amount of DMM Heighten is to be allowed within the normal range of spell levels then the only caps that should apply are the number of turn attempts and the standard 9th level Heighten cap.





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BeholderSlayer

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2010, 07:23:39 PM »
DMM is not a cost reduction mechanic. You do not heighten a spell, THEN apply turn undeads to power the metamagic and lower the level back down to the original level. In that sense, DMM does not need to know how many levels you are heightening the spell. Instead, you cast a spell from the normally prepared slots, and you personally apply the Turn Undeads to power metamagic to the point where you wish to. You are not, for example, heightening a spell from 3rd to 6th and then paying Turn Undeads to reduce the slot from 6th to 3rd. You are instead casting a spell at 3rd level and paying the appropriate number of Turn Undeads to heighten the spell to a level which you wish to cast.

Look at it this way, you cast a spell, and as a free action during the casting apply positive/negative energy to the spell to apply the chosen metamagic feat (I'm sure that has already been said, though).

Divine Metamagic does not check whether you have a spell slot of the level needed to cast the spell if you had not applied DMM. For this reason, a 7th level cleric can persist all the spells he knows that qualify for Persistent Spell no matter the level. By this same logic, you would need to be of 13th level to cast a DMM: Persist 1st level spell if your reasoning were correct.

That's not how DMM works, though. It may be a somewhat decent house rule, but that's exactly what it would be, a house rule.

There is nothing in the text of Heighten that changes this simple fact. Being "as difficult to cast" as a higher level spell is not important. You are casting the spell at the lower level and augmenting it with positive or negative energy.

Sheesh, I feel like I just said the exact same thing 5 different ways. I probably did.
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Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2010, 08:21:52 PM »
I find it interesting that everyone is focused on DMM.  DMM is not where the problem lies.  I agree with I think everyone in this thread on how DMM works.  It clearly allows you to spend turn attempts to cast a spell with a metamagic feat applied without changing it's spell level.

In fact, on closer review of DMM... I think you may not even have to have the mm feat in question.  That's a question for a different thread, though.

The problem lies with Heighten.  It works differently from all other metamagic feats.  Says so right in the description.

Every other metamagic feat has a defined, non-changing (within the feat itself) spell level increase.

Heighten is the only metamagic feat I am aware of that has a variable spell level increase. 

My position is that you must use the rules within the Heighten feat to determine the spell level increase allowed.  DMM has NOTHING to do with determining the spell level increase for any metamagic feat.  I challange anyone to prove otherwise.

Nothing that anyone has posted so far has convincend me this position is incorrect.



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McPoyo

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2010, 08:24:10 PM »
I find it interesting that everyone is focused on DMM.  DMM is not where the problem lies.  I agree with I think everyone in this thread on how DMM works.  It clearly allows you to spend turn attempts to cast a spell with a metamagic feat applied without changing it's spell level.

In fact, on closer review of DMM... I think you may not even have to have the mm feat in question.  That's a question for a different thread, though.

The problem lies with Heighten.  It works differently from all other metamagic feats.  Says so right in the description.

Every other metamagic feat has a defined, non-changing (within the feat itself) spell level increase.

Heighten is the only metamagic feat I am aware of that has a variable spell level increase. 

My position is that you must use the rules within the Heighten feat to determine the spell level increase allowed.  DMM has NOTHING to do with determining the spell level increase for any metamagic feat.  I challange anyone to prove otherwise.

Nothing that anyone has posted so far has convincend me this position is incorrect.
DMM was errata'd to require the feat you want to DMM via as a prereq, and it only applies to the mm you select it for.

Also, you've yet to explain why Heighten's variable adjustment makes any difference at all to how it functions in such a way as to prevent it from ever being used, not just via DMM. Every argument you have yet made applies to normal uses of it as well as DMM uses, that's why everyone keeps focusing on DMM.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Hallack

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2010, 08:36:44 PM »
Actually I believe Fortify Spell is also a variable +X cost metamagic as well.
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McPoyo

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2010, 08:57:17 PM »
Actually I believe Fortify Spell is also a variable +X cost metamagic as well.
it is
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Sohala

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2010, 09:32:49 PM »
Quote
Slightly different angle. The feat Earth Spell boosts Heighten by one when used. Would this, or would this not allow for 10th level spells to be cast by a 17th level wizard?
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2010, 12:26:34 AM »
I find it interesting that everyone is focused on DMM.  DMM is not where the problem lies.  I agree with I think everyone in this thread on how DMM works.  It clearly allows you to spend turn attempts to cast a spell with a metamagic feat applied without changing it's spell level.

In fact, on closer review of DMM... I think you may not even have to have the mm feat in question.  That's a question for a different thread, though.

The problem lies with Heighten.  It works differently from all other metamagic feats.  Says so right in the description.

Every other metamagic feat has a defined, non-changing (within the feat itself) spell level increase.

Heighten is the only metamagic feat I am aware of that has a variable spell level increase. 

My position is that you must use the rules within the Heighten feat to determine the spell level increase allowed.  DMM has NOTHING to do with determining the spell level increase for any metamagic feat.  I challange anyone to prove otherwise.

Nothing that anyone has posted so far has convincend me this position is incorrect.
I'm just trying to wrap my head around what kind of logic you are using. From what I have read your arguments and by the logic i think you are using it would preclude any spontaneous caster from using heighten spell because it states that you must prepare the spell. It is the same logic as saying it is just as difficult to cast requiring the higher level spell slots.

In short explain it to me like i'm fucking stupid so I can understand how you ever even got to the point of thinking heighten worked different in any way other than changing the spell's level and being variable on the cost compared to other MM feats.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2010, 12:40:49 AM »
I find it interesting that everyone is focused on DMM.  DMM is not where the problem lies.  I agree with I think everyone in this thread on how DMM works.  It clearly allows you to spend turn attempts to cast a spell with a metamagic feat applied without changing it's spell level.

In fact, on closer review of DMM... I think you may not even have to have the mm feat in question.  That's a question for a different thread, though.

The problem lies with Heighten.  It works differently from all other metamagic feats.  Says so right in the description.

Every other metamagic feat has a defined, non-changing (within the feat itself) spell level increase.

Heighten is the only metamagic feat I am aware of that has a variable spell level increase. 

My position is that you must use the rules within the Heighten feat to determine the spell level increase allowed.  DMM has NOTHING to do with determining the spell level increase for any metamagic feat.  I challange anyone to prove otherwise.

Nothing that anyone has posted so far has convincend me this position is incorrect.





Nothing in the Heighten rules precludes a character from heightening beyond their highest available spell level. The only upward limit is 9th level. The burden of proof lies on you to prove me (and everybody else) wrong. Nothing you have posted so far is evidence for your claim.
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Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2010, 11:58:21 AM »
@archangel.arcanis:  I'll do my best.  If I was more eloquent in my wordsmithing, everyone would already know how I arrived at my position -logically - on this issue.  My apologies, everyone.

Yes, I know I've posted this before...  but here it is, one last time.

HEIGHTEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]  -emphasis mine.

Quote
You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is.  
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats,
Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving
throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.

Everyone has no problem with the 1st bolded point.  Clearly Heighten allows spells to be, well.. .heightened no higher than 9th level.

The second bolded statement everyone ignores.  This is apparently because it has the phrase 'prepare and cast' in it.  When thinking about DMM, everyone says 'well, that doesn't apply'.

Here's the statement again:
The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Let me ask this question:  What is the implications of this statement?
i.e. what rules must logically follow from this rule, that haven't been spelled out in actual text within the Heighten feat, but exist elsewhere and still must apply to Heighten?  Ignore DMM for a moment.

1.  The character casting such a spell still must have a casting stat that is high enough in order to do so.  Ex:  Cleric casting a 9th level spell requires a 19 WIS.

2.  The character casting such a spell must have a spell slot available of the appropriate level.  That maximum level is further dependent on the character's abilities with regards to such.  Ex:  A 5th level Cleric can heighten a spell to 3rd level, but not to 4th level.

3.  Item 2 means that even though the range for Heighten is given to be 1st through 9th level spells, the effective range for a 5th level Cleric is 1st through 3rd.  A 5th level Cleric with Heighten can not 'set' (for the lack of a better term) the spell level increase above 3.  This is a restriction enforced on the character by the 2nd bolded statement within Heighten.  This restriction is true for any prepared spells.  And it's true for any cast spells.  Both prepared and spontaneous magics are covered here.

Now factor in DMM:
4.  DMM lets you spend turn attempts in place of the bump in spell level that Heighten normally requires.

5.  DMM can not modify the spell level cost of a metamagic feat.  It can't change a +3 to a +9, for instance.

Now factor in both:
6.  Heighten has a maximum spell level increase AND a restriction on a characters maximum spell level increase.  Regardless of whether the spell is prepared or spontaneously cast.

7.  For a 5th level Cleric, a spell can only be heightened to 3rd level.  No matter how its spell level increase is paid for.

I hope that this clears up at least the question of how I derived my position.  If not...   Hi Welcome.
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Hallack

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2010, 12:05:05 PM »
Perhaps this would be a better argument BlackKnight.  What do you think of this? 

DMM is only an alternate means to pay the cost associated with and derived from the metamagic feat being used.

Heighten DOES NOT have a cost.  It is simply applied to spells within the limits of your casting to make a lower one fill a higher available slot as a spell of that actual level.  There is no associated cost that can be paid for by DMM.  

If this is the case it is at least reasoning I can wrap my head around.  I fear this may not be the understanding though as it would then contradict DMM Heighten usage within the normally allowed spell range.  

If this is the logic being followed then the argument against DMM Heighten has been misstated in using +X cost arguments which a large part of the resistance in the discussion.  A NO COST argument I can follow but it would need to be applied consistently which simply means DMM can not be used with Heighten due to its inherent mechanic (which IS different from other metamagic feats).

More simply put No Cost = No benefit from DMM

How is that?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 12:12:21 PM by Hallack »
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McPoyo

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2010, 12:06:23 PM »
You're ignoring your own bold "prepare and cast". Are you also claiming a spontaneous caster cannot heighten a spell? They do not prepare spells.

Also, you are adding in an unlisted restriction on DMM that doesn't actually exist. Nowhere in DMM does it say it only applies a flat +bonus based on the mm feat being used, same as attempting to DMM a feat you have MM cost reduction to cost extra wasted turn attempts.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2010, 12:13:19 PM »
Well at least I get the reasoning behind it. I still disagree with your analysis but I can at least see why you are thinking that way.

In the end I think irregardless of any rules arguments, for a consistency standpoint Heighten should be allowed to work up to 9th level with DMM just because that is how the other MM feats work with it. It isn't like it is even that good of an option outside of the one case that has brought this up anyway.
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Sohala

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2010, 12:22:20 PM »
3.  Item 2 means that even though the range for Heighten is given to be 1st through 9th level spells, the effective range for a 5th level Cleric is 1st through 3rd.  A 5th level Cleric with Heighten can not 'set' (for the lack of a better term) the spell level increase above 3.  This is a restriction enforced on the character by the 2nd bolded statement within Heighten.  This restriction is true for any prepared spells.  And it's true for any cast spells.  Both prepared and spontaneous magics are covered here.

How does that interact with Earth Spell, Easy Metamagic, and Residual Metamagic? All three seem ways to blow that idea out of the water. Cause suddenly the caster is casting spells higher than the slots they have
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McPoyo

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2010, 12:27:22 PM »
Well at least I get the reasoning behind it. I still disagree with your analysis but I can at least see why you are thinking that way.

In the end I think irregardless of any rules arguments, for a consistency standpoint Heighten should be allowed to work up to 9th level with DMM just because that is how the other MM feats work with it. It isn't like it is even that good of an option outside of the one case that has brought this up anyway.
I can see his point, too. I have from the beginning. It was riddled with holes that made no sense at all with his interpretation, and fell apart outside of core-only + DMM. That's what I've been arguing.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2010, 01:50:30 PM »
3.  Item 2 means that even though the range for Heighten is given to be 1st through 9th level spells, the effective range for a 5th level Cleric is 1st through 3rd.  A 5th level Cleric with Heighten can not 'set' (for the lack of a better term) the spell level increase above 3.  This is a restriction enforced on the character by the 2nd bolded statement within Heighten.  This restriction is true for any prepared spells.  And it's true for any cast spells.  Both prepared and spontaneous magics are covered here.

How does that interact with Earth Spell, Easy Metamagic, and Residual Metamagic? All three seem ways to blow that idea out of the water. Cause suddenly the caster is casting spells higher than the slots they have

No, they don't 'blow that idea out of the water'.  The rules for Heighten are just that.. .the rules for Heighten.  This is a case of specific trumping general ( :D I got to say that myself, finally).  The rules for Heighten do not apply to anything but what is in Heighten and anything that is derived or modified from Heighten.  Like Earth Spell. 

Look at Earth Spell.

Earth Spell - emphasis mine.
Quote
As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on.


The actual slot used isn't changed beyond what Heighten already does.  The effective spell level for DCs and such is increased by 2 instead of by 1 for a spell heightened only 1 level.  The spell level increase doesn't change.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2010, 01:54:23 PM »
2.  The character casting such a spell must have a spell slot available of the appropriate level.  That maximum level is further dependent on the character's abilities with regards to such.  Ex:  A 5th level Cleric can heighten a spell to 3rd level, but not to 4th level.

3.  Item 2 means that even though the range for Heighten is given to be 1st through 9th level spells, the effective range for a 5th level Cleric is 1st through 3rd.  A 5th level Cleric with Heighten can not 'set' (for the lack of a better term) the spell level increase above 3.  This is a restriction enforced on the character by the 2nd bolded statement within Heighten.  This restriction is true for any prepared spells.  And it's true for any cast spells.  Both prepared and spontaneous magics are covered here.

The problem is that there is no evidence that the bolded statement is true when you are applying divine metamagic. Your second bolded statement makes no points about spell slots, it only says "is as difficult to...cast...". While at least I know where you are coming from, now, your conclusion is erroneous. The bolded statement referrs to required wisdom score, concentration checks, and other such mechanics, and does not apply to the application of divine metamagic. In essence, by powering your spell with DMM you are casting a spell at the level it is prepared, and augmenting it with positive or negative energy to boost its effective spell level. By using this energy to power the spell rather than a higher spell slot, you may cast the spell just as easily as you would cast a spell without the metamagic applied.

You cannot take the text of Heighten Spell in isolation when utilizing it with Divine Metamagic. It is typically assumed that unless a feat says it cannot be used to do something, that it can be used to do that thing if it fits within the benefits stated within the feat itself. Heighten does not say you cannot heighten a spell above the spell level you have available to cast. It's just that prepared spellcasters that aren't using DMM or some other ability to apply Heighten to a spell cannot go beyond their highest level because they must prepare the spell before casting it. A sorcerer or bard cannot apply Heighten beyond their highest spell level because they must use a higher level slot.

An Incantrix may use their Cooperative Metamagic ability to heighten an ally's spell beyond the level that both characters can cast. She just needs to succeed on the appropriate spellcraft check to do so. She is not limited in this ability by what her highest spell level happens to be.
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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2010, 01:57:54 PM »
3.  Item 2 means that even though the range for Heighten is given to be 1st through 9th level spells, the effective range for a 5th level Cleric is 1st through 3rd.  A 5th level Cleric with Heighten can not 'set' (for the lack of a better term) the spell level increase above 3.  This is a restriction enforced on the character by the 2nd bolded statement within Heighten.  This restriction is true for any prepared spells.  And it's true for any cast spells.  Both prepared and spontaneous magics are covered here.

How does that interact with Earth Spell, Easy Metamagic, and Residual Metamagic? All three seem ways to blow that idea out of the water. Cause suddenly the caster is casting spells higher than the slots they have

No, they don't 'blow that idea out of the water'.  The rules for Heighten are just that.. .the rules for Heighten.  This is a case of specific trumping general ( :D I got to say that myself, finally).  The rules for Heighten do not apply to anything but what is in Heighten and anything that is derived or modified from Heighten.  Like Earth Spell.  

Look at Earth Spell.

Earth Spell - emphasis mine.
Quote
As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. If you use a spell slot two levels higher, the spell is treated as three levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by two, and so on.


The actual slot used isn't changed beyond what Heighten already does.  The effective spell level for DCs and such is increased by 2 instead of by 1 for a spell heightened only 1 level.  The spell level increase doesn't change.
They all go above your stated slot range, they are still as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level, but yet they can be cast. So, one route is okay, but another is not? Your arguement is that a caster, no matter what, can't cast a spell above what their slots alot, I just showed three examples, DMM is a fourth.
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