DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?

[Black Knight]

BTW, on a side note, did any of you notice that each spell level increase should cost 2, not just an extra 1 at the end?  Darn those inconsistent game designers.  The example they give clearly shows that a +2 increase would cost 3 turn attempts.  That's just not what they wrote as the rule.  According to what they wrote:  "You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase

may i laugh?

you pay 1 and 1 per increase

empower is a +2 increase

so you pay 1+1*2 =3, not 4

its clearly worded, how can someone misudnertand that?

I find it amusing as well...  turn the words into a formula:  (1 + 1) per level increase = +2 / level increase.   

The comma denotes separation, so that is 1 (+1 per increase), not your formula.

I have to admit, you are right.  Somehow missed the comma.  Ok, so the designers got that one right after all.   

[Black Knight]

Sounds like you are saying a lack of spell slots is the same thing as a lack of capability to cast a spell, which seems backwards. The high ability mod allows a person to cast a high level spell, but most low level characters lack the spells to cast, but not the capability to be able to cast them if they had the spells (DMM spells anyone?).

I'm speaking of the general rules here.  You can't use DMM as an argument against them, since that is a specific rule that overrides the general rules.

A lack of spell slots does define whether you can 'normally' cast a spell of that level.  As that's what the Spells per Day chart is all about.  The ability to cast a spell is entirely different from the spell slot you need in order to cast it.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

No it doesn't.  It's a necessary component, but it doesn't define it.

Look, say I am a sorcerer14 with forcecage as my only 7th level spell.  I left my ruby dust at the drycleaners.

Can I cast seventh level spells?

Let's say I'm sixth level sorcerer and second level Rainbow Servant.  I just spent my slots for the day.  All of them. 

Can I cast third level spells?  If not, remember, I no longer qualify for Rainbow Servant.

[carnivore]

i just got here ... and look at the opening arguments .... but from what i can see .... it actually does work, heres the part that convinces me:

the actual Text reads"

Divine Metamagic[Divine]
You can channel energy into some of your Divine spells to make them More Powerful
 Prerequisite: Ability to Turn Undead or Rebuke Undead
Benefit: When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the Cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to Empower a Holy Smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time you take this feat choose a different metamagic feat to which to apply it.


Normal Spell costs for metamagic feats are specific and depend on the feat you are applying, Heighten Spell has Variable cost depending on how high you want to go(9th lvl max) .... Divine Metamagic removes the metamagic cost using Energy from Turn/Rebuke attempts to substitute for Spell Slot levels
this can be seen from the fact that it says "the spell slot for the spell doesnt change"


i have not read all of this thread .... i hope this was not already brought out .... if it was , i appologize for not seeing it

 

[McPoyo]

It has, but BK keeps arguing that doesn't matter.

[carnivore]

then i will stop .... there is an old saying:

"Convince a man against his will, he will be of the same opinion still"

it is irrelavant at this point, everyone will play with what they can get away with or not get away with in thier own games. and since WoTC is not supporting 3.5, there is no way to get an official ruling

 

[Hallack]

@Hallack:  Take note, my friend.  This will be my ruling in the future.

No problem.  As I've said, I disagree with your interpretation though don't have any problem supporting it as a house rule .  The ONLY time it really matters is with Cleric/SCM so unlikely to come up in another game anyways

Feel free to disagree with me.  I don't mind.  At this point, it's clear to me, that this is the correct RAW interpretation.  emphasis added

Well, it is A RAW interpretation but that is the nature of words and how we work them in our minds.

Cheers all

[Black Knight]

No it doesn't.  It's a necessary component, but it doesn't define it.

Look, say I am a sorcerer14 with forcecage as my only 7th level spell.  I left my ruby dust at the drycleaners.

Can I cast seventh level spells?

Your character still has the class given ability to cast 7th level spells.  That class given ability is granted because at 14 level Sorcerer you gain a 7th level spell slot (well, actually 3 or more if you have a high CHA).  Even with no spell components for the single spell you know, you still have the 'ability' to cast 7th level spells.  Even though you can't cast the 1 spell you know, because of other restrictions.

Let's say I'm sixth level sorcerer and second level Rainbow Servant.  I just spent my slots for the day.  All of them. 

Can I cast third level spells?  If not, remember, I no longer qualify for Rainbow Servant.

Yes, you still have the ability to cast 3rd level spells, even though you have spent all of your 3rd level spells for the day.

Spell slots and the ability to cast spells of the same level is not the same thing.  Closely associated... but not the same.  A class grants you the ability to cast a spell of a certain level by describing the spell slots you have available.  Other feats (like Versatile Spellcaster) grant you the ability to cast a spell of a certain level by specifically stating that you can do so.

My assertion is that DMM does not specifically state that you can cast a spell of X level.  Therefore, the general rule that you must have the ability to cast a spell of that level, still applies.

@carnivore:  Look at my post on general vs specific before you make up your mind on how it works... and welcome to the discussion!

[Sohala]

So...a max level spell effected by DMM would fizzle? As you are already casting it, and as you already burnt your turns to use DMM to apply the feat to the spell.

[Drull]

In the end really, it all comes down to one question.

Can a 1st level caster throw a 9th (or any lower, but lets go big ) level spell?
With all the arguments and subtle or not so subtle bickering at other people a few things are obvious.

A first level spell DMM:Heightened to 9th still uses the first level slot. Dont think anyone is denying this one...
That first level spell heightened to 9th IS an actual 9th level spell. Dont think anyone really disagreed with that one either?

So in the end the only real question is, even though that first level character shouldnt be able to cast a higher level spell then his table says he can (as per PHB) does DMM give him the ability to actually cast the spell? It pays for the slot increase, BK isnt arguing that, he is arguing the actual ability to cast the 9th level spell (which a heightened spell really is) as a caster that cant by RAW cast spells higher then level 1. And unlike versatile spellcaster which specifically says "you can cast a higher level spell" no where in DMM does it say that.

I believe if TML or McPoyo (or anyone else on the yay side) actually gave a rules quote that said that you can cast a higher level spell then your table allows this could be over with. THAT is the part thats missing.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'd like to see a rules quote that you can't.

This seems very much a "but it doesn't say you can swing your sword on sunday" situation.

[Drull]

Well, if my points are correct I believe I actually did answer the PHB part on page 7:

may not cast any spells of that level.

So the table doesnt really say he cant cast them, but the spells per days description actually does

Unless I'm missing a comma in a part that I'm not seeing, the above quote says exactly that.

A first level character has "-" in anything but a first level spell.
A heightened spell is a higher level spell even though its in the first level slot.


Which part of that doesnt make sense? DMM does pay for the cost of the feat, but it really seems to screw itself over with the level of the spell

[McPoyo]

Here's the problem: You aren't casting a ninth level spell. You are casting a first level spell boosted with divine power to 9th level effect.

[Drull]

A first level cleric with a charisma of 14, Heighten Spell, DMM: Heighten and Extra Turning would indeed qualify for a PrC that requires casting 9th level spells, by RAW.

If this is RAW (and since quite a few builds use it on the forums, I presumed for a long long time now that it is) then what you said above is not correct.

Either you're casting 9th level spells and can qualify for prestige classes or you're casting a first level spell with a 9th level effect and cant qualify for prestige classes. Both cant really co-exist

[spacemonkey555]

Cool TO, if allowed a cleric would qualify for attribute bonus spells and domain slots for any spell level that you heighten a spell to.

The description of heighten says the spells are "as difficult to cast" as a spell of that level. Why do you currently have no slots of that spell level? Because you aren't skilled enough to cast them yet.

[MalcolmSprye]

I missed a few pages in the middle... but has anyone brought up Metamagic Song?

http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1932-metamagic-song.html

It functions the same way as DMM does, but specifically says that you must have been able to cast the (modified) level of spell. (it also forbids using it on Silent spells )

Given that Metamagic song specifically forbids this practice, and DMM doesn't, it would seem that, as written, DMM allows it.

Sorry if I missed some crucial bit of the argument (discussion? ).

[McPoyo]

I did early on but it got ignored.

[BeholderSlayer]

I did early on but it got ignored.

So did pretty much everything else...

[carnivore]

heres additional reason why it does work ....  notice from the FAQ found here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a .... on page 40:

quote "Can a cleric with Divine Metamagic feat apply a metamagic effect to a spell whose level would ordinarily be too high to gain the metamagic effect from his metamagic feat?

[snakeman830]

I think what Black Knight is getting at is that Heigten doesn't just change the slot, but actually changes the spell level.

I still think he's wrong, but I think I can see where he's coming from.