Author Topic: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?  (Read 25773 times)

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Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2010, 04:31:43 PM »
Several people have said / agreed that DMM happens first before Heighten.  I have to change my position and agree with that.

Dvine Metamagic
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Vistella

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2010, 04:34:46 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2010, 04:38:38 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

Why couldn't they?  Spell it out for me.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #103 on: September 16, 2010, 04:40:59 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9
Because your argument makes it so you have to apply Persist first so it would be above the available spell slots. So at that point it doesn't matter how you pay for the increase because there is no spell slot above 9th level (pre-epic, but if your epic why do you care go make an epic spell)
Why couldn't they?  Spell it out for me.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 04:47:25 PM by archangel.arcanis »
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Vistella

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #104 on: September 16, 2010, 04:42:23 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

Why couldn't they?  Spell it out for me.
where do you get the lvl10 slot from?

@a.a: your quoting skills suck :p

Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #105 on: September 16, 2010, 04:45:27 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

Why couldn't they?  Spell it out for me.
where do you get the lvl10 slot from?

@a.a: your quoting skills suck :p

So you are telling me that a Cleric, without any mm cost reducing feats / abilities, can persist Divine Power?  Is that what you are saying?
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #106 on: September 16, 2010, 04:47:08 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

Why couldn't they?  Spell it out for me.
where do you get the lvl10 slot from?

@a.a: your quoting skills suck :p
just my ability to color within the lines.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Vistella

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2010, 04:47:32 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

Why couldn't they?  Spell it out for me.
where do you get the lvl10 slot from?

@a.a: your quoting skills suck :p

So you are telling me that a Cleric, without any mm cost reducing feats / abilities, can persist Divine Power?  Is that what you are saying?
if they have enough turn attempts, yes
(and are lvl7 ofc to be able to cast divine power in the first place)

Hallack

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2010, 04:47:56 PM »
3.  As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.

Let's say I'm a 5th level Cleric.  I'm going to apply Heighten to a spell I know.  How do you 'normally' apply Heighten to a spell you know? Remember, DMM has no stated rules changing how you apply the metamagic feat it is associated with.

Note, DMM does not say apply the Metamagic Normally.  Instead of applying it normally you apply it by spending Turn Attempts.  Normal = applying spell slots  DMM = Applying Turn Attempts (thus preserving actual spell slot)

DMM does change the mechanic for application and thus overwriting the inherent limit to normal Heighten.

Or such could be argued reasonably with the verbiage in point 3.

Cheers
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McPoyo

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2010, 04:49:47 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9
Agreed
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2010, 04:53:36 PM »
3.  As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.

Let's say I'm a 5th level Cleric.  I'm going to apply Heighten to a spell I know.  How do you 'normally' apply Heighten to a spell you know? Remember, DMM has no stated rules changing how you apply the metamagic feat it is associated with.

Note, DMM does not say apply the Metamagic Normally.  Instead of applying it normally you apply it by spending Turn Attempts.  Normal = applying spell slots  DMM = Applying Turn Attempts (thus preserving actual spell slot)

DMM does change the mechanic for application and thus overwriting the inherent limit to normal Heighten.

Or such could be argued reasonably with the verbiage in point 3.

Cheers

DMM also does not say apply the Metamagic some other way.  Therefore there is no specific overruling text to counter the inherent limit found in Heighten.

Cheers back at you.
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Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2010, 04:55:10 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

Why couldn't they?  Spell it out for me.
where do you get the lvl10 slot from?

@a.a: your quoting skills suck :p

So you are telling me that a Cleric, without any mm cost reducing feats / abilities, can persist Divine Power?  Is that what you are saying?
if they have enough turn attempts, yes
(and are lvl7 ofc to be able to cast divine power in the first place)

Aha... so what you meant to say was DMM:Persist.  

You have not read my prior posts, obviously, as I've ascerted a difference in Heighten vs other mm feats.

EDIT:  Nevermind... I see your point.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 05:04:29 PM by Black Knight »
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McPoyo

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2010, 05:01:08 PM »
You still haven't given a valid reason besides a convoluted logicc string as to why it doesn't work. Beside the fact that you don't like it.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Hallack

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2010, 05:10:22 PM »
DMM also does not say apply the Metamagic some other way.  Therefore there is no specific overruling text to counter the inherent limit found in Heighten.

Quote
3.  As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.
(emphasis mine of course)

Benifit:
"use it" - That is use Turn Attempts to "apply" the metamagic.

Normal: Normally you use available slots to "apply" the metamagic.

DMM changes the method of application.  Since it is now being applied with Turn Attempts and not with Slots the slots available stop being a limit.

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Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #114 on: September 16, 2010, 05:10:31 PM »
I think this is even clearer that DMM: Heighten is limited to the highest spell you can cast.

Thoughts?
with that reasoning clerics couldnt persist divine power either, yet they can

imo your example just made it more clear that the only limit is lvl9

The conventional understanding is that clerics can DMM:Persist Divine Power.  

But what if they actually....   couldn't?   Interesting.  I'm going to have to think about that.
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Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #115 on: September 16, 2010, 05:11:49 PM »
DMM also does not say apply the Metamagic some other way.  Therefore there is no specific overruling text to counter the inherent limit found in Heighten.

Quote
3.  As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.
(emphasis mine of course)

Benifit:
"use it" - That is use Turn Attempts to "apply" the metamagic.

Normal: Normally you use available slots to "apply" the metamagic.

DMM changes the method of application.  Since it is now being applied with Turn Attempts and not with Slots the slots available stop being a limit.



Sorry. No.  Context dictates otherwise.
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Hallack

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #116 on: September 16, 2010, 05:17:39 PM »
Which context?  Please explain.

Doesn't seem like I am really have to wrench and twist for the meaning I post above.  Certainly seems reasonable interpretation even if one does not agree it is the correct one.

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Vistella

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #117 on: September 16, 2010, 05:27:56 PM »

Aha... so what you meant to say was DMM:Persist.  

i took that as given in a thread about DMM...

Drull

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #118 on: September 16, 2010, 05:30:00 PM »
Ok after reading 6 pages of this thread I may be a bit lost, but couldnt Black Knights argument simply come down to this:

A cleric of 7th level can only cast 4th level spells. A persistent maximized empowered quickened 4th level spell of awesomeness is still just a 4th level spell.

That same cleric using DMM to heighten just by 1 is still casting a 5th level spell which his table strictly says he cant.

I mean technically, a first level cleric with DMM:Heighten can enter prestige classes that require you to be able to cast 9th level spells if the 2nd ruling is actually legal.

Not really siding with either side, just trying to simplify things a bit  :banghead

Black Knight

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Re: DMM Heighten, Does it work RAW?
« Reply #119 on: September 16, 2010, 05:31:15 PM »
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it the energy to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.

So, 'use it' means in context:  use the energy.

When you 'use the energy', what you get to do is:  apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.
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