Author Topic: Red Wizard's Handbook  (Read 49668 times)

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McPoyo

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2010, 03:13:24 PM »
Basically, Nodes let you make a spellcraft check to boost your caster level by their class. So +13 from Node, boosting CL to 40 via circle magic, plus other basic boosters to CL, then double it via Master Spellthief.
How does Master Spellthief double your CL 40 for your wizard spells? I must be reading something wrong. I'm not incredibly familiar with Master Spellthief. Right now I'm getting a CL of 85, but that's because I only doubled the Node bonus.
Cl 40 is because of Circle Magic.
I know that, but I don't understand why Master Spellthief would double that portion of your CL. Are you utilizing Circle Magic to boost spellthief CL to 40 as well? That would make sense.
Yup.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2010, 03:52:56 PM »
In that case, so far I've got CL up to 125, not including items/spells and Red Wizard class features. Would items and spells that increase CL apply to both spellthief and wizard and be doubled as well?
Hi Welcome
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Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2010, 04:18:35 PM »
In that case, so far I've got CL up to 125, not including items/spells and Red Wizard class features. Would items and spells that increase CL apply to both spellthief and wizard and be doubled as well?
Yup, because each increases the CL of each class, which is added together.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2010, 06:23:17 PM »
So, that puts us at (borrowed from Kell's post in other thread) with a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Spellthief 2/SCM 3:
125
+2 Ring of Arcane Might
+2 Orange Ioun Stone
+2 Robe of Arcane Might (Illusion)
+2 Create Magical Tatto spell
+2 Adept Spirit
+8 Bead of Karma
+4 Spell Enhancer
+10 Spell Power
+4 Arcane Thesis
+4 Liquid Pain
= CL 165 for one Silent Image spell

Taking away the node is a CL of 139 for casting your Node Genesis, using Widen spell that's a Node ending at 5600 feet in diameter, which is a class 17 node if my math is right. So after the node is finished, you can push up to a CL of 173.

Let's see if we can get a Red Wizard to CL 200.  :clap
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2010, 06:24:56 PM »
So, that puts us at (borrowed from Kell's post in other thread) with a Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/Spellthief 2/SCM 3:
125
+2 Ring of Arcane Might
+2 Orange Ioun Stone
+2 Robe of Arcane Might (Illusion)
+2 Create Magical Tatto spell
+2 Adept Spirit
+8 Bead of Karma
+4 Spell Enhancer
+10 Spell Power
+4 Arcane Thesis
+4 Liquid Pain
= CL 165 for one Silent Image spell

Taking away the node is a CL of 139 for casting your Node Genesis, using Widen spell that's a Node ending at 5600 feet in diameter, which is a class 17 node if my math is right. So after the node is finished, you can push up to a CL of 173.

Let's see if we can get a Red Wizard to CL 200.  :clap
Granted, that also takes 140 years to fully mature that Node.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2010, 07:19:58 PM »
I'm sure I'm missing some CL boosters, so pile 'em on me. Adding Vial of the Last Gasp, another +2 (1 each wizard and spellthief) for pre-node 141, and 2 more magic tattoos for +4 to 145.

Utilizing GCF, we can get this guy's pre-node CL up to 217. That makes a node of, I believe, 8680 feet in diameter, which is a 21st class node.

Post node completion CL of up to 259 on a single spell.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 07:22:34 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2010, 07:27:04 PM »
Don't forget Spellgifted (Illusion) for the featless +1 :)
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Amechra

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2010, 07:45:26 PM »
Yep, I'm boosting Spellthief CL.

If my DM agrees to that 20th level game, I will so play one of these characters.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2010, 07:47:51 PM »
Yep, I'm boosting Spellthief CL.

If my DM agrees to that 20th level game, I will so play one of these characters.

Later tonight I'm going to A)Make my own Red Wizard Master Spellthief and B)Make a Master Spellthief Bardic Gish, seeing how high I can push things with Node tech.  Also, this breaks psionics wide open too, as Nodes can be used with psionics as well :D
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Amechra

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2010, 07:56:33 PM »
Basically, I see this as another instance of the game designers making up awesome stuff and not checking for brokeness beforehand.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2010, 07:57:58 PM »
can someone do a mini handbook on this so I can see where everything is and how it works. I've been catching bits and pieces of this while reading at work but can't reference the books at the same time to see what it is that you are doing. I love spellthieves and this may actually make it worth while for me to try and do one again. Along with the fact i've been wanting to play a red wizard for a while as well.
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

Amechra

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2010, 08:09:39 PM »
You'll have to ask someone who isn't me; I have far less experience with these calculations than Kell, for example.

Alright, how can we optimize the 20th level spell heightening? The only spells I could find that depend on spell level are the Light and Darkness type spells.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2010, 08:27:29 PM »
Don't forget Spellgifted (Illusion) for the featless +1 :)
Done (Spellgifted +2), and let's add the Nugget of Garl Glittergold (+2), Terran Brandy (+4) = 152, GCF for 228.

I need just 3 more caster levels to Node Genesis a Class 22 Node. Somebody hjelp meh!

So far that's 270 caster levels.

So far:
Wizard CL 40
Spellthief CL 40
+20 Earth Spell
+2 Robe of Arcane Might
+2Ring of Arcane Might
+2 Orange Ioun Stone
+6 Create Magical Tatto spell x3
+2 Adept Spirit
+8 Bead of Karma
+4 Spell Enhancer
+10 Spell Power
+4 Arcane Thesis
+4 Liquid Pain
+2 Spellgifted
+2 Nugget of Garl Glittergold
+4 Terran Brandy
= 152
+1.5 Greater Consumptive Field
= 228
+2 Mystic Surge
= 230
Utilize Shadow Illusion to cast Node Genesis at CL 230 makes a node of 9,200 feet in diameter with widen spell (if you can apply it). A node of that size is a class 21 Node, which can grant 21 caster levels to wizard and spellthief which stack for +42, giving
272 Caster Levels.

I made a quick spreadsheet to reference how large each node class will be by diameter. I'm not sure how to post spreadsheets though. :) I have it worked out to 13,000 feet in diameter at class 26 node.

Oh boy...I just need another +1 CL boost and that'd put us at a class 22 node and we'd gain another 4 caster levels.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 08:32:27 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2010, 08:43:09 PM »
You'll have to ask someone who isn't me; I have far less experience with these calculations than Kell, for example.

Alright, how can we optimize the 20th level spell heightening? The only spells I could find that depend on spell level are the Light and Darkness type spells.
Reserve Feats?

Ironically, the Face Changer reserve feat would boost Silent Image by another +1 CL and bag me the 276 CL. Of course, who knows if I'd ever be able to fit it in the build....
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2010, 09:25:52 PM »
One thing I'm a little more interested in than Spell Level optimization, is combining the Metanode Spell feat with metamagics applied by Circle Magic and more mundane means. We know Circle Magic can apply metamagic up to level 20...and that we can get a Node of up to 22nd class (or up to class 15 if Enlarge Spell does not apply). This means you can cast 20th level spells out of -2 level slots (hah) or out of 5th level slots....seems ripe for abuse to me.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 09:41:27 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2010, 09:33:23 PM »
One thing I'm a little more interested in than Spell Level optimization, is combining the Metanode Spell feat with metamagics applied by Circle Magic and more mundane means. We know Circle Magic can apply metamagic up to level 20...and that we can get a Node of up to 22nd class (or up to class 15 if Enlarge Spell does not apply). This means you can cast 20th level spells out of -2 level slots (hah) or out of 5th level slots....seems ripe for abuse to me.

Spell-linked Familiar so Foamy can cast Shadow Miracles in half or more of his slots?
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Amechra

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2010, 09:39:21 PM »
Reserves of Strength will help that CL problem, and is also highly abusable.

Ahem, let's use Fireball for this.

234d6 Fire damage. Will save n for 468 or 514d6. Reflex save for half.
 :D

[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2010, 09:41:42 PM »
Let's say you have Repeat Spell, Enlarge Spell, Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, and Persistent Spell and are casting from a class 15 node. We will use node classes as "metamagic currency."

You may apply metamagics to spells up to 20 from circle magic. You Maximize, Empower, Repeat Spell, Enlarge Spell, Persist and Heighten a spell (just for an example). Maximize, Empower, Repeat, Enlarge, and Persistent spell cost, combined, 3 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 6 = 15, so you use your Metanode spell feat to reduce this to a level adjustment of zero, and you still have the spell heightened to 20th level....

Granted, that's a lot of feats and makes some assumptions about how the abilities work together....
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2010, 10:02:22 PM »
Of course, you could just become immortal, wait a number of arbitrary years until it hits such a high Node Level that it partly suffuses with infinity; i.e., it does not matter a lick how much metamagic you slap on your character.

Wait, could you DCFS the feat you gain from Undaunted Heroism (or whatever that spell that grants you a fighter feat is called)?

If so, you would lose that fighter feat after the duration was over, but since, well, its not that feat anymore...

All Metamagic feats, anyone?

I, personally, would see if I could go epic after that, just to grab an infinite number of Great Intelligences. And Uncanny Foresight+Spell Mastery.



Slightly off topic: the 20th level campaign my DM is thinking of would mainly be us trying to destroy each other utterly.

So, I will have that as a main goal, and will try to see if I can get a one night stand with Mystra...

Maybe grab "Initiate" of Mystra...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Red Wizard's Handbook
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2010, 10:16:30 PM »
I am unable to find the reference in CoR that you cannot have multiple nodes in the same place at once. Does anybody know where it is?

PS @ Amechra: Node Genesis limits the size of the node to 20*CL at time of casting = feet in diameter, so it doesn't grow indefinitely....of course, if you cast Node Genesis again after the fully matured node was finished growing, you'd still be inside the old node and create a new one which eventually would be of even higher class than the first.

Given time (i.e. being immortal like a lich or maybe epic magic) you could attain NI CL over time, it would just be a slow process. Not that it would matter, because nobody would be able to do much of anything to you even before you started the loop.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 10:19:59 PM by BeholderSlayer »
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]