Author Topic: Some Circle Magic Batteries  (Read 3159 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2010, 01:54:10 PM »
Here's an idea for all you high level Red Wizards : Charge up the sims quickly (who can lead their own circles, assuming you went Wiz 5/Red Wiz 5 for your first 10) by retraining/PsyRefing into them Improved Familiar and giving all of them Mirror Mephits (or was it Mist...the one that gives use of Simulacrum).  Have the little bastards start spamming it to gradually have a true Sim army.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 04:56:32 PM »
Amechra, thank you very much for posting this.  I'm very intrigued.  I admit to not looking too closely at Circle Magic before.  I'd like to understand this better, and maybe use some of it for a BBEG in my campaign.

Using Circle Magic to heighten a cantrip to 20th level still leaves you with just a cantrip, right?  You mentioned "sacrificing a cantrip slot for 40 9th level slots"... but they are not actual slots right?... Just cantrips Heightened to that level?

Silverbrow was to get dragonblooded... that and Warmage was for Practial Metamagic, yes?

If you did Necropolitans for the free taint feat, you'd lose out on Earth Sense/Spell (requires Con 13).

I think the 20th level cap for Heighten only applies to enhancing the Circle Leaders memorized spells using "circle bonus levels" generated by the Circle.  Otherwise, the 9th level cap archangel.arcanis mentions still applies to the circle participant's spell used to empower the circle.

Would anyone take pitty on me and walk me through the math one step at a time?  I'm determined to understand the mechanics of this.  Thanks in advance.

(edit:  also, Arcane Manipulation from Lost Empires of Faerun can only be used on up to 3 slots, yes?)

Here's the math, considering only the 3 cantrips.

3 Cantrips get heightened to 20th level. Those 20th level spells get broken into 20 first level spells each. This gives you 60+ your normal first level spells. That number is doubled via Ring of Wizardry I. This gives you 120 + normal first level spells. Heighten those spells to 20th level. Then cast Spell Engine and reassign level 9 spells into your 120 level 20 slots.

From a TO perspective, I think we can get more out of this. Heighten cantrips to 20th, then break them back down into cantrips. Now you have 120 cantrips. Heighten those cantrips to first level. Your Ring of Wizardry I makes that 240 first level spells. Then start circle magic and heighten those spells to 20th, now you have 240 20th level spells. Spell Engine to assign new spells again.

Of course, you can always spend the time to boost ALL of the rest of your spells to 20th level as well.
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McPoyo

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2010, 05:18:58 PM »
After all, once prepared, your slots don't change if you aren't re-preparing the spell slot occupied by the spell, so you could just do it one spell a day for a long while and end up with every spell being a 9th level spell eventually...
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2010, 05:22:23 PM »
After all, once prepared, your slots don't change if you aren't re-preparing the spell slot occupied by the spell, so you could just do it one spell a day for a long while and end up with every spell being a 9th level spell eventually...
Or you can just cast a Spell Engine to reassign (re-prepare) your slots.

Remember, the effects of Circle Magic only work for 24 hours.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2010, 05:24:02 PM »
After all, once prepared, your slots don't change if you aren't re-preparing the spell slot occupied by the spell, so you could just do it one spell a day for a long while and end up with every spell being a 9th level spell eventually...
Or you can just cast a Spell Engine to reassign (re-prepare) your slots.

Remember, the effects of Circle Magic only work for 24 hours.
Once prepared, a spell stays until cast. Workaround!
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2010, 05:37:47 PM »
After all, once prepared, your slots don't change if you aren't re-preparing the spell slot occupied by the spell, so you could just do it one spell a day for a long while and end up with every spell being a 9th level spell eventually...
Or you can just cast a Spell Engine to reassign (re-prepare) your slots.

Remember, the effects of Circle Magic only work for 24 hours.
Once prepared, a spell stays until cast. Workaround!
True, you could spend all your circle levels on heightening spells and wait until the final day to boost your caster level to 40th.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2010, 11:37:04 PM »
This is why I want Shadowcraft Mage.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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carnivore

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2010, 01:06:30 AM »
quick note .... look at the Feat: Heighten Spell ..

HEIGHTEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

you might want to redo your calculations
 :D

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2010, 01:07:24 AM »
quick note .... look at the Feat: Heighten Spell ..

HEIGHTEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

you might want to redo your calculations
 :D
Red Wizard specifically states you may heighten to level 20. It's a class feature that overrides the Heighten Spell feat text.
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carnivore

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2010, 01:38:34 AM »
opps ... wasnt paying close enough attention

 :D

Amechra

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2010, 01:48:00 AM »
Yeah, carnivore, that still applies pretty closely to the Circle Magic feat, which only allows you to get 10th level spells.

I really want to optimize that feat in an e6 game, where it would be the most awesome thing ever.

Oh, and the max with Earth Spell is 21. so you have 12 more spells than you originally counted if you use the 9th-cantrip trick.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Felix Underwood

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2010, 02:42:28 PM »
Ahh, very good, thanks guys.

I didn't see the Spell Engine or Rary's Arcane Conversion trick for swapping out the heightened spells for 9th level spells.

I gotta say though, I don't agree with the Handbook's take on Spell Engine.  I don't think it stays in effect if you leave any of your spell-slots unprepared.  I think the duration expires when you stop the process of preparing spells.  (or at least that looks like RAI to me).  With the cost involved with Spell Engine, I'd rather go with Rary's Arcane Conversion.

I also didn't realize that the process proposed here included soo many iterations of circle magic.  If a group were to take days to wind-up, 23 iterations could be to dupe spells, and the 24th iteration could up caster level every day (just in case something tried interrupting you).  Definitely want warforged or someone to cast Remove Fatigue.  :)

On second thought... I'd almost feel dirty trying this on my PCs. :devil

(edit):
Yeah, carnivore, that still applies pretty closely to the Circle Magic feat, which only allows you to get 10th level spells.

I really want to optimize that feat in an e6 game, where it would be the most awesome thing ever.
  I want to look closer at the Circle Magic feat when I get home and can access my Ghostwalk book.

In an e6 game, you are still limited to knowing only up to 3rd level spells right?  Rary's Arcane Conversion is 6th level, and Spell Engine is 8th level.

I don't think Uncanny Foresight (did you mean forethought?) would help you.

Quote from: PhaedrusXY
UNCANNY FORETHOUGHT
You cunningly prepare your spells for any exigency.
Prerequisites: Int 17, Spell Mastery.
Benefit: When preparing your daily allotment of spells, you can reserve a number of spell slots equal to your Intelligence modifier. As a standard action, you can use one of these slots to cast a spell that you selected for the Spell Mastery feat. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast. Alternatively, as a full-round action, you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know. The spell is resolved as normal, but for the purpose of the spell, your caster level is reduced by two. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast.

That requires reserving a slot unprepared.  Shuffling your heightened cantrips into higher level spells, requires that the spell slots be used.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 03:20:49 PM by Felix Underwood »

Vlos

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2010, 03:59:19 PM »
NM - noticed it is a class feature of Red Wizard.. my bad - thought it was a feat.

Are you talking about the Circle Magic Feat from Ghostwalk, or is there another source that I am missing?

If so that is for Divine spell casters.

Quote
Participation
To participate in circle magic, a person must have the Circle Magic feat (it doesn't matter if the participants are of different divine spellcasting classes, such as cleric, druid and ranger).) ...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 04:08:06 PM by Vlos »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2010, 03:43:14 AM »
Also, heighten makes the spell that actual level, unlike most other metamagic, so you actually end up with a 20th level spell slot
WotC really dropped the ball on that one. A DMG PrC that has higher level spells than an epic caster? A Wiz 10 / Red Wiz 10 totally sounds balanced alongside a Cleric 15 / Heirophant 5 who can't cast 9th level spells

Amechra, I have an issue with the general metamagic reducers on heighten spell, but its the same beef I have with that part of the miracle at level 6 silliness.

Basically if you think you can apply them to heighten then a cleric 1 with DMM(heighten) can cast 9th level spells. But then again you might like that... still this thread made me look back over my preq handbook
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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And healed. Don't forget that.
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McPoyo

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2010, 03:44:33 AM »
Also, heighten makes the spell that actual level, unlike most other metamagic, so you actually end up with a 20th level spell slot
WotC really dropped the ball on that one. A DMG PrC that has higher level spells than an epic caster? A Wiz 10 / Red Wiz 10 totally sounds balanced alongside a Cleric 15 / Heirophant 5 who can't cast 9th level spells

Amechra, I have an issue with the general metamagic reducers on heighten spell, but its the same beef I have with that part of the miracle at level 6 silliness.

Basically if you think you can apply them to heighten then a cleric 1 with DMM(heighten) can cast 9th level spells. But then again you might like that... still this thread made me look back over my preq handbook
Keep in mind Red Wizard wasn't originally a DMG PrC. It became one during the 3.0 to 3.5 shift. It was originally a FRCS PrC.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2010, 04:22:18 AM »
This is why I show such love for the Shadowcraft Mage; 3 levels, and you have a class feature that let's you spont. cast miracles.

Bad. Ass.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Felix Underwood

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2010, 04:11:17 PM »
Here's my contribution:

Circle Magic Battery - Capacitors!
Level 1 Mongrelfolk Binders (for naberious's faster ability score healing)


Eldritch Corruption requres an ally of yours takes the con damage, and that the target must take the damage (doesn't work on those immune or that can reduce it).

Raise an extended family of these guys.

Amechra

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Re: Some Circle Magic Batteries
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2010, 10:30:37 PM »
Eldritch Capacitors...

Hey, how would you stat up a Thrallherd 18 as this guy's cohort? I mean, of course, what would you make his army?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing