Author Topic: Stuck  (Read 2254 times)

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bradywan

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Stuck
« on: September 08, 2010, 06:02:24 PM »


  Have you ever been handed something you've always wanted, and then didn't know what to do with it?

 A retired DM, the best our group ever had, is going un-retire and run a campaign in the city.  We're looking at 75% of the adventures in a city of some kind. We have always wanted this as a group, but now I find myself unable to come up with a solid build. No one has a character built yet, but we like the idea of being rouge-ish. Be it core rouge or bard, or beguiler or what not.  Even if others change their minds, at least myself and one other guy want to be these super rouges.

I was thinking human, we get a 34 point buy, 2 flaws are allowed.

 I thought of build with level 1 being rouge, and then going with scout and ranger (and the urban alternate features) but is there a way I can have my cake and eat it too? Can twf and archery be semi optimized so I could do both?

 Or what about a bard? The party face man?

 I own the Tome of Battle, but have never made anything using it?  Anything useful for an urban character

 We can pretty much use any WotC 3.0 and 3.5 book, anyone have any suggestions?

Prime32

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 06:15:25 PM »
The best I can think of is dual-wielding throwing weapons. Or get an elvencraft composite longbow (which doubles as a quarterstaff).

ToB can help an archer, but you need to pick manuevers carefully (mostly Boosts) or get a homebrew ranged discipline approved. Swordsage seems to be what you're looking for in any case.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 06:18:27 PM by Prime32 »
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Agita

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 06:20:47 PM »
Do you want to be Rogue-ish in terms of damage dealing, or in terms of being a skill monkey? In the latter case, I can heartily recommend the Factotum from Dungeonscape. ('Course, Facties can also deal good damage, but it doesn't come quite as easily to them as the skill monkey schtick.)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 06:22:22 PM by Agita »
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CantripN

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 06:24:30 PM »
Bards are AWESOME. Another option is the Lasher (3e PrC), which is an amazingly nice Whip warrior.
A Swiftblade is amazingly fun to play, too, and is somewhat of a Duelist (plus, as a caster, it's really powerful).
And Factotums are GREAT FUN. As are Chameleons.

I'd try for something like Factotum 3 / Swashbuckler 3 / Chameleon 10 / Barbarian 1 / Warblade 3.

OR

Factotum 3 / Swordsage 2 / Chameleon 10 / Barbarian 1 / Warblade 4.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 06:30:31 PM by CantripN »
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bradywan

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 06:55:05 PM »


  As far as skill monkeying goes, our party is looking at it like this.  We need the main skill monkey, open locks disable device and all of that, good int and lots of skill points.  Then we need the social monkey with diplomacy, other social skills and a good charisma, party leader type.  The other two characters can be more melee or magic oriented, but still need to be able to match the other two in skills like hide and move silently.

 Now, I know that 2 different skill monkeys isn't needed, but since we're all going to be rouge-ish, we thought splitting it up would be best, so everyone has something to do/is included.

 My original character idea (before the city part) was going to be something along the lines of bard 3/paladin 2/marshal 1, and end up around Bard 7/Paladin 2/Marshal 1/Sublime Chord 2/Stormsinger 8. Depending on the level of thievery and wetwork, I'm not sure how well the paladin portion would work, so I'm hesitant to take this build.  This would easily be the party face.

 I like the idea also of a combat capable character that can sneak and hide, so I immediately think of something along the scout/ranger lines maybe slightly favoring archery, but dual wielding two kukri when things get close up.

 As far as the factotum goes, (here goes) I don't really care for it.  I don't have a good reason, it just doesn't jive with me, kinda like buying someone a gift card at Christmas. It's like throwing in the towel, "I couldn't think of anything, so here".  I'll read factotum again and see what I can work out.

Thanks for your time all, keep it up.

carnivore

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 07:17:04 PM »
what is the starting level?


this might work quite well ....try this:

Changeling

Rogue 2/ Marshal 1/ Warlock 2/ Chameleon 10 ....

this gives a Great Social boost for a party Face ... and you can pretend to be anyone ..

 :D

Hallack

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 07:25:00 PM »
Have to agree that it depends on what sort of "roguish" you are shooting for.

Factotums, at least some levels would be great for a non-full casting build.

But I have to admit that I REALLY like the Beguiler for this sort of thing.  I REALLY like the Swiftblade too but in that regard you can actually do both.  Beguiler 6/ Swiftblade X.  

You could certainly min/max something more powerful but depending on the exact nature of the city campaign you would have tons of options both melee, skills, social, spells, ect...

A large part of what would be best depends on level of optimization the party and DM would be wanting.

Chameleon is certainly an awesome option as mentioned too.
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 07:30:21 PM »
If you use ranger, see if you can get the favored environment variant approved and urban added as an environment option.  (It's a favored terrain option in pathfinder.) 

bradywan

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 07:43:15 PM »

 @ Carnivore

 Thanks for the build suggestion :)  The build I was going to use originally, Bard 7/Paladin 2/Marshal 1/Sublime Chord 2/Stormsinger 8 was a build you made for me a few years back.  Your stuff is always great brother!


 @ Hallack

  Ok, I looked over the beguiler and remembered why I liked them, and browsed the swiftblade handbook, and I like the sound of it.  So lets say I decided to roll with beguiler 6/swiftblade 4, how would you make him?
 Human? elf, whisper gnome? kobold?

  Campaign starts at 1st, 34 point buy, up to 2 flaws and 2 traits, all WotC 3.0 and 3.5 books, magazines and web material allowed.

carnivore

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 07:45:40 PM »
 :thumb you are welcome

 :D

Hallack

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2010, 07:58:31 PM »
@ Hallack

  Ok, I looked over the beguiler and remembered why I liked them, and browsed the swiftblade handbook, and I like the sound of it.  So lets say I decided to roll with beguiler 6/swiftblade 4, how would you make him?
 Human? elf, whisper gnome? kobold?

  Campaign starts at 1st, 34 point buy, up to 2 flaws and 2 traits, all WotC 3.0 and 3.5 books, magazines and web material allowed.

In character what sort of focus or focuses would you want?  Character concept particularly would color what I took for Race, Stat, skill, and feat selection.

Elf can give useful boost to Dex and Int as well as Martial weapon for qualification.  Faerie Mysteries Initiate from Dragon 319 can give you Int to HP instead of Con.

Human... well, extra feat and skills is always awesome.

Whisper Gnome could be downright awesome as well particularly for stealthy Gish but takes a bit of a hit to the social side.  Nothing that can not be easily overcome though with skill point expenditures.

I've got to head out but will try to work up some builds and post them Friday morning.
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bananaphone

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2010, 12:54:44 AM »
what is the starting level?


this might work quite well ....try this:

Changeling

Rogue 2/ Marshal 1/ Warlock 2/ Chameleon 10 ....

this gives a Great Social boost for a party Face ... and you can pretend to be anyone ..

 :D

I assume that this includes the awesome changeling rogue substitution level?   (10 skill points + Int) x 4  is insane for a 1st level character.  Plus the "Social Intuition" abilites are extremely handy if you run into many urban elements in the campaign.

Hallack

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 11:41:52 AM »
Okay, here is a couple builds I will try to keep them good and playable from 1-10 levels.

Keep in mind without knowing the groups playstyle and dynamics it is hard to put together builds beyond purely a mechanical perspective.  Going to try and keep in mind the Roguish flavor though :)

These builds tend to focus more on the Gish side of things in not spending feats to enhance spell DC and such.  

Human Beguiler 6/Swiftblade 4
[spoiler] Stats: Int of course if prime really followed depending on your focus and concept.  Stats set below reflect a better than average in all areas character.  Easily points could be shifted to enhance or sacrifice for more focused build.
     Str: 14 (6) - for encumbrance and possible Power Attack (even if only from Heroics)
     Dex: 14 (6)
     Con:12 (4)
      Int: 16 (10)
     Wis: 12 (4)
     Cha: 12 (4)
Points spent (34)

Could easily sacrifice more Con if not worried about Fortitude save or even more from other stats if not worried about skill bonuses and other saves.

Feats:
     Human) Dodge or Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild)
        Flaw) Faerie Mysteries Initiate (good background roleplay fluff here) (Int to HP)
        Flaw) Versatile Spellcaster
          1st) Heighten spell (If Versatile Spellcaster Trick is allowed)
          3rd) Mobility
          6th) Darkstalker (if you are going to be stealthy then be it :) )
          9th) Arcane Strike??  [/spoiler]

Whisper Gnome Beguiler 6/Swiftblade 4

[spoiler]Stats: Int of course if prime really followed depending on your focus and concept.  
      Str: 10 (4) -- with Racial -2
     Dex: 16 (6)         +2 Racial
     Con:16 (6)        +2 Racial
      Int: 16 (10)
     Wis: 12 (4)
     Cha: 10 (4) -- with racial -2.  Prefer to not get penalties on UMD but if not put points elsewhere.
Points spent (34)

Feats:
      Flaw) Dodge or Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild)
      Flaw) Versatile Spellcaster
          1st) Heighten spell (If Versatile Spellcaster Trick is allowed)
          3rd) Darkstalker (if you are going to be stealthy then be it :) )
          6th) Mobility
          9th) Arcane Strike??  
[/spoiler]
Traits: Didn't look at traits.

Skills: You will have tons of skills to put in stealth, social, spot, listen, search, disable, ect... depending on your desires and parties needs.  If you go Whisper Gnome your stealth will can be off the chart for your level or you could use the racial bonus to free up skill points for other areas.

Gear: Various buff and utility wands like Heroics, cures, protection from X, Wraithstrike.  Preferably with wand chamber in weapon.  Circlet of Persuasion gives good boost to lots of skills too. Metamagic Rods.

Tricks: If your DM allows, the combo of Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster should allow you to overcome some problems with lost caster levels.  Spend two spells to produce a heightened one of one level above.  Nifty trick but expensive in both feats and spells if used much.  As a DM I'd allow it but... I'm not.  If allowed you could have 2nd level spells at 1st level but by 10th it would simply allow to to cast 4th level spells as you would as a pure Beguiler despite two lost Caster Levels.

If your DM does not allow this Trick then Versatile Spellcaster is probably still worth it in my experience.  

Will your DM allow Eclectic Learning (warmage Alternative class feature for Advanced Learning) for the Beguiler's Advanced learning?  It would open a LOT of options.  How does your DM run the Extra Spell feat?

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Epimetheus

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2010, 01:40:04 PM »
Eclectic Learning helps a lot for Beguilers; you'd get access to one of the nifty Wizard/Sorc spells (albeit 1 level lower than Adv. Learning). Heroics could be nice, but I think your first free spell is a 1st lvl one.

Extra Spell basically does the same thing as Eclectic Learning, if the feat is interpreted as adding a spell to your spell list.
(Rainbow Servant lvl 10 becomes awesome for the beguiler if that interpretation holds. All cleric spells added to your list. Spontaneously. Geez. But it's not super relevant to your game.)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 06:48:35 PM by Epimetheus »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2010, 01:44:20 PM »
Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) can temporarily allow you to cast any spell found on a cleric domain, and also grant you the abilities of any cleric domain. The second part lasts as long as you want, but the first can only be used 3x before you have to "recharge" it. It's still pretty handy, though.

Three levels of Shadowcraft Mage can also greatly expand the spell effects you're capable of throwing out tremendously, and it's easy to qualify as a Beguiler.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 01:46:05 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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Re: Stuck
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 04:41:00 PM »
Consider the "city spell" metamagic if you want to use damage-dealing spells.  City damage is pretty much irresistible. 
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HotSoup

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Re: Stuck
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 05:33:41 PM »
Get a Factotum with high INT and high CHA and you have a skillmonkey/face of the party.