Author Topic: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System  (Read 5514 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
[3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« on: September 06, 2010, 11:18:52 PM »
More rules ideas from me.  I personally feel that the 3.5e skill system is good in concept, but is simply overburdened by a ridiculous overabundance of skills.  If you include all splats, I think the grand total actually reaches 52 unique skills (if you include each sub-division of Knowledge skills, at least).  The changes to the basic system made in Pathfinder strike me as unnecessary, and the 4e skill system as a whole (especially skill challenges) is epic fail, even though the changes made to their respective skill lists each include some good ideas.

This is a work in progress.  I'll be adding tables and such to this as I get the relevant DCs out of various sourcebooks.

Acrobatics (Dex) :
[SPOILER]Acrobatic Movement: A character trained in Acrobatics can use a variety of maneuvers to move about.

Maneuver                      DC
Avoid Falling Prone...........varies
Avoid Attack of Opportunity...varies
Reduce Falling Distance.......15
Move Through Enemy............25
Free Stand....................35


Avoid Falling Prone:  When an opponent makes a trip attempt against you in combat, you can substitute an Acrobatics check for your opposed Strength or Dexterity check.  If you win on the opposed check, you are not allowed a free trip attempt against your opponent.

Avoid Attack of Opportunity:  When you move through an enemy's threatened squares, you can make an Acrobatics check to avoid an attack of opportunity.  Your Acrobatics check must beat an opposed Insight check made by your opponent.  Your opponent may substitute their Base Attack Bonus for their ranks in the Insight skill for this opposed check.  If you are attempting to tumble past multiple opponents, make one Acrobatics check opposed by each of your opponents Insight checks.

Reduce Falling Distance: When you fall from a height of 10' or higher, you can make an Acrobatics check to reduce the amount of damage you take upon landing.  If you succeed on a DC 15 Acrobatics check, you reduce the distance you fall by 10 feet.  For every 15 points by which you beat the DC, you reduce the distance you fall by an additional 10 feet.

Move Through Enemy: If you succeed on a DC 25 Acrobatics check, you can move through the space of a single enemy during your movement.  You can move through the space of additional enemies by increasing the DC by 2 for each enemy after the first.  If you fail on the check, you lose any remaining movement with your current action and fall prone next to the first creature whose space you attempt to move through, provoking an attack of opportunity.  If you end your movement in a square occupied by an enemy, you fall prone in that square.  If you also attempt to avoid attacks of opportunity for moving through threatened squares, make a single Acrobatics check for both purposes.  Enemies whose squares you move through gain a +5 bonus on their opposed Insight checks.

Free Stand: If you succeed on a DC 35 Acrobatics check, you can stand from prone as a free action (instead of a move action).  You still provoke attacks of opportunity for standing from prone.

Balancing on narrow or slippery surfaces: On surfaces less than a foot wide, such as a narrow ledge or a tightrope, a character needs to make balance checks in order to move.  As a move action, a character can move half their speed across a narrow surface if they succeed on an Acrobatics check against a DC listed below.  If a character attempts such a check and fails by 4 or less, they lose their move action as they momentarily lose balance and are forced to recover.  Failure by 5 or more results in the character losing their move action and falling.

Characters can opt to move at their full speed during their move action by accepting a -5 penalty to their Acrobatics check.  If a character attempts a double move or withdraw action while balancing, they must make an Acrobatics check for each multiple of their speed that they move.  They can also run or charge across a surface if they accept a -20 penalty to their Acrobatics check.  

Surface Width   DC
12+ inches*.....10
7-12 inches.....10
2-6 inches......15
1-2 inches......20

*Balance checks only necessary if the surface has been greased or is covered in ice.


Difficult Terrain: The DC for performing the above acrobatics can be adjusted if you're attempting them on something other than a flat, dry, stable surface.  These modifiers are as follows:

Hazard                        DC Mod
Unstable Surface (Tightrope)....+2
Slick Surface...................+2
Iced or Greased Surface*........+5
Light debris....................+2
Dense rubble*...................+5
Sloped Floor....................+2

*These surfaces are often considered difficult terrain and can slow movement further.


Escaping from bindings or a grappler: When restrained by bindings, magical effects, or a grappler, an Acrobatics check is typically required to escape.

Restraint     DC
Grappler......varies
Spell.........varies
Rope..........varies
Manacles......30
Tight Space...30


Escaping a Grappler:  When attempting to escape from a grapple (an attack action), you can substitute an Acrobatics check for your opposed grapple check.

Binding Spells: When attempting to escape from a spell such as animate rope, entangle, web, or snare, you can often use an Acrobatics check.  The action required and the DC of the check depend on the spell.

Rope or Manacles:  When bound by rope or manacles, escaping takes more time than it does to escape from a grappler.  After 1 minute of working at escape, make an Acrobatics check opposed by the Use Rope check of the binder.  For manacles, the action is the same, but the DC is set at 30.

Tight Space: Whether or not you're bound, you can move through extremely narrow spaces.  As a full-round action, you can move 5' through a space that is wide enough to fit your head, but too narrow to squeeze through using normal rules by making a DC 30 Acrobatics check.

Flying:  Only creatures with a Fly speed can use the Acrobatics skill to Fly.  There are two different kinds of flying creatures: natural fliers and supernatural fliers.  The former have wings or similar ligaments that allow them to physically elevate themselves and fly through the air.  The latter use spells or have innate supernatural abilities that allow them what is essentially well-controlled levitation.  If a creature has both methods available to them (such as a winged creature under the effect of a Fly spell), then they can use whichever method is most beneficial to them for each maneuver.  There are a few differences in how these two types of flying are done with the Acrobatics skill, as detailed in the description of each flying maneuver.  The DC of performing each maneuver is listed below.

All fliers with clumsy, poor, or average maneuverability gain no bonus or penalty to Acrobatics checks made to make flying maneuvers.  Natural fliers with good or perfect maneuverability can always take 10 on any Acrobatics check made to perform a flying maneuver, regardless of being rushed or threatened.  Natural fliers with good maneuverability also gain a +8 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to perform flying maneuvers.  Natural fliers with perfect maneuverability gain a +20 racial bonus to Acrobatics checks made to fly and do not become fatigued from strenuous flying.  Supernatural fliers with good or perfect maneuverability make Acrobatics checks to fly as if under the effects of a Fly spell.  These bonuses replace all bonuses and/or penalties associated with flying maneuverability.

When a natural flying creature is rendered incapable of moving (either because they were stunned, dazed, knocked unconscious, etc.) he descends at a rate of 60' per round as their wings reflexively stiffen to help them glide safely back to earth, resulting in no damage taken.  When a supernatural flying creature is rendered incapable of performing mental actions or enters an antimagic field (or antipsionics field, as appropriate) then they simply fall to the ground, taking standard falling damage.  If a supernatural flying creature has their method of flying dispelled or suppressed by any other effect (such as dispel magic) then they descend at a rate of 60' per round and are incapable of horizontal movement until they touch down, taking no falling damage.

Flying Maneuver          DC
Glide...................(NC)
Slow Turn...............(NC)
Slow Ascent*............(NC)
Hover*...................15
Dive Attack*.............20
Fast Turn................25**
Wingover*................35**
Fast Ascent*.............25**
Vertical Ascent*.........25**
Fast, Vertical Ascent*...35**
(NC)=No Check

* Strenuous flying maneuver.  A natural flying creature with 8 or fewer HD can only use a number of strenuous flying maneuvers each encounter equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum 1 time per encounter).  If not in a combat encounter, then this limit applies until they land and rest for 1 minute.  They can attempt to push themselves beyond this limit, but must make Endurance checks each round for prolonged strenuous activity.  Natural fliers with more than 8 HD and all supernatural fliers can use these maneuvers without limit (except Dive Attack, see the maneuver description for details).

** Making these maneuvers while under the effect of the Fly spell or Psionic Fly power reduce the DCs of these skill checks by 10, in place of any other effects of these abilities beyond granting a Fly speed.


Glide: Gliding is the standard horizontal movement used by all flying creatures.  Using the Glide maneuver allows a natural flying creature to either move horizontally 10' while descending 5' or move horizontally at least 10' and up to their fly speed while descending 10'.  In any case, this is a move action.  Natural fliers with more than 4 HD can move up to their fly speed without descending.  Supernatural fliers can always move their speed horizontally without descending.

Slow Turn: Any flying creature can turn up to 45° every 5' at no movement cost, or up to 90° by using up 5' of movement.  This maneuver is made as part of a move action.

Slow Ascent: When performing this maneuver, a flier moves at least 10' and no more their horizontal movement and simultaneously move up no more than one-half the horizontal distance covered.  This maneuver is a move action.

Hover: Normally, a natural flier must move at least 10' during a round to remain flying; however, a natural flier can make a DC 15 Acrobatics check to remain stationary in flight.  This is a free action that the flier can make at any time during his turn, and can even be made in conjunction with a 5' step (moving 5' in any direction, including up).  If she fails the DC 15 check, then she can simply use a move action afterwards to move the requisite 10'.  A supernatural flier never needs to make an Acrobatics check to hover.

Dive Attack: Natural fliers can make diving charge attacks with devastating effects.  They must be at least 30' away horizontally and 10' above the target to execute a dive attack.  This attack grants all the bonuses and penalties associated with making a Charge attack.  When executing a dive attack, the flying creature makes an Acrobatics check against DC 20 and moves up to twice their fly speed to the closest square adjacent to the target.  Success on the Acrobatics check means their attack deals double damage and they remain flying, failure means the attack is a normal charge attack and the attacker lands next to his target.  Supernatural fliers cannot make Dive Attacks.  This maneuver is a full-round action.

Fast Turn: As Slow Turn, except a creature can make a 90° at no cost or up to a 180° turn by spending 5' of movement.  A creature that fails the check descends 10' in the square where he attempts the fast turn and loses the rest of his movement for that action.  A creature that beats the DC by 10 can instead do a Wingover maneuver.

Wingover: As Slow Turn, except a creature can make any turn at no cost.  A creature that fails the check by 10 or less can instead execute a Fast Turn.  A creature that fails the check by more than 10 descends 10' in the square where he attempts the Wingover and loses the rest of his movement for that action.

Fast Ascent: As Slow Ascent, except a creature can increase their elevation as much as they moved horizontally.  A creature that fails this check executes a Slow Ascent maneuver instead.

Vertical Ascent: A flying creature moves more-or-less straight up as a move action.  They can move up to half their speed vertically with a successful Acrobatics check.  As part of this movement, they can also move up to 10' horizontally.  In a turn where a flying creature performs this maneuver successfully, they do not need to move 10' horizontally to remain airborne.  If a creature fails this check, they lose their move action and must still move 10' horizontally that turn or fall.  If a creature beats the check DC by 10 or more, they can perform a Fast, Vertical Ascent instead.

Fast, Vertical Ascent: As Vertical Ascent, except the creature moves up to their full speed straight up.  A creature that fails this check by 10 or less performs a Vertical Ascent instead.  A creature that fails this check by more than 10 loses their move action and must still move 10' horizontally that turn or fall.

New Feat- Born Flyer
Prerequisite: Fly speed, Acrobatics 4 ranks.
Benefit: You can always take 10 on an Acrobatics check made to perform a flying maneuver, regardless of being rushed or threatened.

New Feat- Flyby Attack
Prerequisite: Fly speed, Acrobatics 9 ranks OR Acrobatics 4 ranks and BAB +6.
Benefit: If using a move action to fly, you can take your normal standard action at any point along that movement instead of using it before or after you move.
If you make a Dive Attack and move your fly speed or less before the attack, you can make a Slow Ascent maneuver as a free action immediately after the attack without provoking an attack of opportunity from the target of your Dive Attack.
---------------(end spoiler)[/SPOILER]

Alchemy (Int)
Craft [Alchemy] gets it's own skill again, and it will also include all uses for the Craft [Poisonmaking] skill as well.  I have some hazy ideas to fully flesh out and assemble for a full-on Alchemy system, so it seems appropriate to me.

Athletics (Str)
References to the Climb, Jump, and Swim skills shall instead refer to Athletics.

Arcana (Int)
References to the Knowledge [Arcana] shall instead refer to Arcana.  Further, most references to Spellcraft will also refer to the Arcana skill, including skill checks to identify arcane spells/effects and for a Wizard to scribe spells into her spellbook.  Finally, for using certain items that you are otherwise prohibited from using, the Use Magic Device skill will also work with Arcana.

Bluff (Cha)
Bluff now also includes all uses of the Disguise skill, and with Linguistics will also incorporate the Forgery skill via skill tricks yet to come.  Anything requiring the Forgery skill has that requirement dropped.

Forgery and Disguise Skill Tricks:
[SPOILER]Creating or detecting a forgery generally requires a character to either have an example or an intimate understanding of the genuine article, thus a forged seal can only be detected by someone with access to the seal or someone who uses the same seal themselves.

Forge Seal:
Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks
Benefit: By spending 1 minute of work, you can create a forgery of a wax seal that is indistinguishable from a genuine seal without careful scrutiny.  If someone examines your false seal, make an opposed check of your Forgery skill against the analyzer's Insight skill.  Success means that the forgery goes undetected.
As long as it is applied effectively and believed, a forged seal acts as a masterwork tool enhancing the user's Bluff skill, granting a +2 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks.
Special: If you can cast the arcane mark spell, then you can create a forged seal much more quickly or forge another arcanist's arcane mark by using this skill trick.  Simply use this trick as part of the normal casting of the spell, although to forge a seal you will still need wax.

Forge Signature:
Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks
Benefit: By spending 1 minute of work, you can create a forgery of another person's signature that is indistinguishable from a genuine signature without careful scrutiny.  If someone examines your false seal, make an opposed check of your Forgery skill against the analyzer's Insight or Linguistics skill.  Success means that the forgery goes undetected.
As long as it is applied effectively and believed, a forged signature acts as a masterwork tool enhancing the user's Bluff skill, granting a +2 circumstance bonus on Bluff checks.

Disguising yourself to look like a generic nobleman or actor is nothing special, and simply requires a bit of work, appropriate clothing, and opposed checks of the Bluff skill and Insight skill as usual for lying to an observer.  Skill tricks only come into play when you are looking to disguise yourself as someone in particular.

Assume Persona:
Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks
Benefit: By spending 1 minute of work, you make yourself to appear as another specific person.  Those who have seen the person before receive a +2 bonus on Insight checks to see through your disguise, and people who are very familiar with the person receive a +5 bonus on the same checks, but success means that they treat you as they would the person you're disguised as.
Normal: You cannot meaningfully disguise yourself as another person.  Anyone who has ever seen a person you try to pass yourself off as will immediately recognize that you are not them, no Insight check required.
---------------------(end of spoiler)[/SPOILER]

Concentration (Con)
Concentration is unchanged.

Cosmology (Int)
References to Knowledge [the Planes] shall instead refer to the Cosmology skill.  Further, it will eventually serve similarly to Arcana and Religion in terms of identifying spells and using magic items.

Craft (Int) :
[spoiler]Check                    DC
Appraise common item.....12
Appraise rare item.......20
Craft item...............varies


Practice Trade: By spending 8 consecutive hours working at your trade, you gain a number of silver pieces equal to one-half your check result.

Appraise Item: You can determine the value of an item related to your trade by examining it for 1 minute.  Common items include things like common swords, spears, etc. for weaponsmiths, a suit of armor for an armorsmith, or items like clay jugs and pots for a potter, and most common trade goods like grain, iron, etc.  Rare items include any item with artistic value, masterwork equipment, exotic weapons, gems, and the like.  Checks to appraise a rare item cannot be made untrained.

Craft Item: If you are trained in the appropriate craft skill, you can make items at a substantially cheaper cost than required to purchase the item from an artisan.  Use the rules listed here to determine how to make mundane items.
---------------------(end of spoiler)[/spoiler]

Diplomacy (Cha)
The most broken skill in the game remains unchanged by this variant, mostly so that you can use other variant rules expressly designed to tone it down.  I personally rather like Rich Burlew's (a.k.a. The Giant) system.

Dungeoneering (Wis)
The new name for the Knowledge [Dungeoneering] skill.  Also includes all uses for the Survival skill made while in underground or dungeon environments.  Anything requiring ranks in the Survival skill will instead require ranks in either the Dungeoneering or Nature skills.

Endurance (Con)
An essentially new skill.  Made to replace a variety of Fortitude saves and Survival checks related to things such as forced marching, severe weather, starvation and thirst, holding breath, etc.

Endurance Skill Checks:
[SPOILER]Strenuous Activity- Strenuous activity includes any prolonged stretch of moderate or heavy exertion.  The first check is always made against a DC of 15, but when that check is made and how quickly the DC scales differ from situation to situation.  

If moving overland, a character must make their first Endurance check after 8 hours.  After that, they must make an additional check every hour, with the DC increasing with each check by 1.  Failing a check means that the character becomes Fatigued.

If swimming, a character must make their first Endurance check after 1 hour.  After that, they must make an additional check every minute, with the DC increasing with each check by 1.  Failing a check means that the character becomes Fatigued.

If climbing, a character must make their first Endurance check after 10 minutes.  After that, they must make an additional check every minute, with the DC increasing with each check by 1.  Failing a check means that the character becomes Fatigued.

If running, a character must make their first Endurance check after 1 minute.  After that, they must make an additional check every round, with the DC increasing with each check by 2.  Failing a check means that the character becomes Fatigued.

There are a number of other ways for a character to become fatigued.  In these cases, the activity itself describes how long until fatigued condition sets in.  Like other Endurance checks to resist fatigue, the first check is made against a DC of 15.  The next time an Endurance check is required, the save DC increases by 2.

Severe Weather: Extreme heat and cold are just as dangerous as a dragon when a character isn't protected from them.  Temperatures between 40 degrees and 90 degrees are safe, although temperatures outside this range can subject characters to heatstroke and frostbite.  Note that all listed temperatures are on the Fahrenheit scale.  Creatures that have already been knocked unconscious by nonlethal damage take lethal damage from extreme temperatures instead, and cannot recover from any nonlethal damage until they are taken to an area in a temperature range between 40 degrees and 90 degrees.

Temperature | Frequency
91 - 110 degrees | 1 hour
111 - 140 degrees | 10 min
141 - 180 degrees | 1 min
181 - 210 degrees | 1 round
211 or higher | see text
Extreme Heat: Characters in temperatures above 90 degrees must make a Endurance checks to avoid heatstroke.  After spending the noted amount of time in the corresponding temperature band, a character must make a DC 15 Endurance check (with a -4 penalty for wearing bulky clothing or wearing any kind of armor).  At the end of each subsequent time increment, the character rolls another Endurance check and the DC of the check increases by 1.  Failure on any Endurance check results in the character taking 1d6 nonlethal damage, and for as long as they have any nonlethal damage caused by extreme heat, they are fatigued.  This nonlethal damage cannot be restored by any means until the character reaches an area with a temperature below 91 degrees.

Burning Heat: Temperatures in excess of 210 degrees don't allow an Endurance check to avoid damage.  At these temperatures, creatures without actual fire resistance feel their skin burn and blood literally boil as the water in their bodies turns to gas.  Characters inside an area of Burning Heat simply take 3d6 fire damage every round.  Only creatures with the Fire subtype are truly comfortable at these temperatures.

Temperature | Frequency
40 - 1 degrees | 1 hour
0 - -20 degrees | 10 min
-21 - -50 degrees | 1 min
-51 - -100 degrees | 1 round
-101 or lower | see text
Extreme Cold: Characters in temperatures below 40 degrees must make Endurance checks to avoid frostbite.  After spending the noted amount of time in the corresponding temperature band, a character must make a DC 15 Endurance check (with a -4 penalty for wearing light clothing or metal armor).  At the end of each subsequent time increment, the character makes another check and the DC of the check increases by 1.  Failure on any Endurance check results in the character taking 1d6 nonlethal damage, and for as long as they have any nonlethal damage caused by extreme cold, they are fatigued.  This nonlethal damage cannot be restored by any means until the character reaches an area with a temperature above 40 degrees.

Freezing Cold: Temperatures below -100 don't allow Endurance checks to avoid damage.  At these temperatures, creatures without actual cold resistance feel the air they breathe turn to ice, and the frozen cold quickly spreads from their lungs.  Characters in an area of Freezing Cold simply take 3d6 cold damage every round.  Only creatures with the Cold subtype are truly comfortable at these temperatures.

Endure Hunger:  All creatures need to eat.  A creature that goes for 5 days without food begins to suffer from starvation.  After 5 days, the creature makes a DC 15 Endurance check.  Success means the creature staves off the effects of starvation, while failure means the creature takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.  This nonlethal damage cannot be healed by any means until the character has had adequate food and complete bed rest for at least 1 day for every 5 days they went without food.  Every day the creature needs to make an additional check, and the DC of each subsequent check increases by 2.  If a character is rendered unconscious by hunger, they immediately die on their next failed Endurance check.

Endure Thirst: All creatures need water.  A creature that goes for a day without water begins to suffer from thirst.  After one day without water, the creature makes a DC 15 Endurance check.  Success means the creature staves off the effects of thirst, while failure means the creature takes 1d6 nonlethal damage.  Every hour the creature needs to make an additional check, and the DC of each subsequent check increases by 1.  If a character is rendered unconscious by thirst, they immediately die on their next failed Endurance check.

Hold Breath: Land-born creatures can't breathe water, and aquatic creatures can't breathe air.  They do, however, occasionally venture into the other's domain for a short period of time.  Under any situation where a creature is deprived of air for a minute, they must make an Endurance check against DC 15.  Success means they are able to hold their breath, failure means they take 1d6 nonlethal damage per hit die.  Every round they must make another Endurance check, and every round the DC increases by 2.  Nonlethal damage suffered by holding one's own breath cannot be healed by any means until the creature returns to a breathable environment and rests there for 5 minutes.  If a creature is rendered unconscious from holding their breath too long, then they try to breathe air normally.  If they are unable to breathe in their current environment, then they continue making Endurance checks, taking lethal damage instead of nonlethal damage.  If they are exposed to some manner of other hazard by breathing, then they are simply exposed to that hazard and make no further Endurance checks and take no further damage.  If they are able to breathe normally, then they're very strange.
---------------------(end of spoiler)[/SPOILER]

Engineering (Int)
References to Craft [Trapmaking] and Knowledge [Architecture and Engineering] (assuming there were any) now refer to the Engineering skill.  Also, Engineering is now one of two skills that can be used to disarm traps.  Like Alchemy, I have some ideas to put together for a more adventurer-friendly system of trap making.

Heal (Wis)
Heal is unchanged.

History (Int)
References to Knowledge [Geography], Knowledge [History], Knowledge [Nobility and Royalty], and Martial Lore now refer to the History skill.  Also, any other pure Knowledge check can be made using the History skill instead, but such checks take a -5 penalty and never reveal more than basic information.  After all, the study of History is basically the study of the entire world, although very academic in nature.

Insight (Wis)
The new name for the Sense Motive skill.

Intimidate (Cha)
Intimidate is unchanged.

Nature (Wis)
References to the Handle Animal and Knowledge [Nature] now refer to the Nature skill.  Also includes all uses for the Survival skill made in above-ground, natural environments.  Also works similarly to the Arcana and Religion skills for the purposes of identifying spells and using magic items.

Perception (Wis)
References to the Listen, Search, and Spot skills now refer to the Perception skill.

Perform (Cha)
On it's own, Perform now works the same as Profession.  Generally, every day you make a check and gain half your check result in silver pieces.  That said, while a given community is usually made up entirely of people with the Profession skill, they can only support a good deal of Performers if it's a prosperous community.

Bard characters treat the number of ranks in their Perform (sing) skill to be equal to their Bard level +3 or the highest number of ranks they have in any single Perform skill, whichever is lower.  Bards who take up their profession via individual practice often go without an instrument for a long period of time, and Bards who attend a Bardic College have mandated singing lessons.

Profession (Wis)
Profession can now be used to appraise mundane items related to the specific Profession skill, as per the Appraise skill.  Anything requiring ranks in the Appraise skill generally no longer has that requirement.  Otherwise, the Profession skill remains unchanged.

Psionics (Int)
References to Knowledge [Psionics], Psicraft, and Use Psionic Device now refer to the Psionics skill, instead.  At some point, I'm going to write up some changes to Psionic Items and Magic Items so that they're not mirror images of each other with the only difference being a name (wand = djore, for example).  Magic items will stay the same, and some feats like Craft Universal Item will be the same, but Craft Wonderous/Universal Item will enable a character to make any Wonderous/Universal item, not just whatever piece of the pie they picked the relevant feat for.

Religion (Int)
The new name for the Knowledge [Religion] skill.  Further, some references to Spellcraft will now refer to the Religion skill, including skill checks to identify divine spells/effects and for an Archivist to scribe spells into her prayerbook.  Finally, using certain magical relics and divine items, similar to the Use Magic Device skill, will be employed through Religion instead.

Ride (Dex)
Ride is unchanged.

Stealth (Dex)
All references to the Hide and Move Silently skills now refer to Stealth.

Streetwise (Cha)
All references to the Gather Information and Knowledge [Local] skills now refer to Streetwise.

Thievery (Dex)
All references to the Open Lock and Sleight of Hand skills now refer to Thievery.  In addition, Thievery is now one of two skills that can be used to disable traps.

New Skill Trick Pre-requisites:
[SPOILER]These skill tricks are presented in Complete Scoundrel.  Listed here are the new pre-requisites made to reflect the new skill system.

Skill Trick | Pre-Requisite
Assume Quirk | Bluff 8 ranks
Group Fake-Out | Bluff 8 ranks
Never Outnumbered | Intimidate 8 ranks
Second Impression | Bluff 8 ranks
Social Recovery | Bluff 5 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks
Timely Misdirection | Bluff 8 ranks
Clever Improviser | Engineering 5 ranks OR Thievery 5 ranks
Conceal Spellcasting | Concentration 1 rank, Thievery 5 ranks, Arcana 1 rank OR Religion 1 rank*
Easy Escape | Medium or smaller size, Acrobatics 8 ranks
False Theurgy | Arcana 8 ranks OR Religion 8 ranks*, Bluff 8 ranks OR Thievery 8 ranks
Healing Hands | Heal 5 ranks
Hidden Blade | Thievery 5 ranks, Quick Draw
Mosquito's Bite | Thievery 12 ranks
Opening Tap | Thievery 12 ranks
Quick Escape | Acrobatics 12 ranks
Shrouded Dance | Stealth 8 ranks, Perform [Dance] 5 ranks
Sudden Draw | Thievery 8 ranks, Quick Draw
Whip Climber | Thievery 5 ranks, proficiency with whip
Clarity of Vision | Perception 12 ranks
Collector of Stories | Special**
Listen to This | Perception 5 ranks
Magical Appraisal | Arcana 12 ranks
Point it Out | Perception 8 ranks
Spot the Weak Point | Perception 12 ranks
Swift Concentration | Concentration 12 ranks
Acrobatic Backstab | Acrobatics 12 ranks
Back on Your Feet | Acrobatics 12 ranks
Corner Perch | Athletics 8 ranks
Dismount Attack | Ride 5 ranks
Escape Attack | Acrobatics 8 ranks
Extreme Leap | Athletics 5 ranks
Leaping Climber | Athletics 5 ranks
Nimble Charge | Acrobatics 5 ranks
Nimble Stand | Acrobatics 8 ranks
Slipping Past | Acrobatics 5 ranks
Speedy Ascent | Athletics 5 ranks
Tumbling Crawl | Acrobatics 5 ranks
Twisted Charge | Acrobatics 8 ranks
Up the Hill | Acrobatics 5 ranks, Athletics 5 ranks
Walk the Walls | Athletics 12 ranks, Acrobatics 5 ranks
Wall Jumper | Acrobatics 5 ranks, Athletics 5 ranks
* Using this skill trick with an arcane spell requires the indicated number of ranks in the Arcana skill.  Using this skill trick with a Divine spell requires the indicated number of ranks in the Religion skill.
** You can only use this skill on monster knowledge checks involving a skill you have at least 5 ranks in, as listed below.
Arcana - Constructs, Dragons, Magical Beasts, Outsiders, Elementals
Dungeoneering - Abberations, Oozes
Streetwise - Giants, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids
Nature - Animals, Fey, Plants, Vermin
Religion - Undead
If you have at least 5 ranks in any of the above skills, you can learn the skill trick.
-------------------(end of spoiler)[/SPOILER]

This post will likely be an ongoing work in progress.  I'll leave up the skill tricks for reference, but for my own games I'd likely switch them all out completely for Skill feats (from Races of War).  All Synergy bonuses should also be removed in this system.  Characters in this system should likely receive a lower base of skill points: Fighters would have 2+int, Barbarians would have 3+int, Rangers would have 4+int, and Rogues would have 5+int, as examples.  Because of the compacted nature of the system, they'll still be able to max out a higher proportion of skills based solely on their base skill points, and having a high Intelligence becomes much more valuable for everyone given that they also allow investments in a higher proportion of all the skills.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 01:06:47 AM by X-Codes »

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 02:46:28 AM »
New Skill System:

Skill Points, Class Skills, and Skill Ranks -
Class skills are now only determined at first level.  If you are a Fighter, and you later gain a level of Wizard, you do not add Alchemy to your list of class skills as normal.  Furthermore, if a skill is not a class skill, you can not invest ranks in it.  Skill points are always traded at a 1:1 ratio for ranks in class skills, even if it's a level in a class that doesn't normally offer it as a class skill.  Cross-class skills are, essentially, non-class skills.

Automatic Ranks -
Some classes automatically increase your rank in a skill when you take it.  As an example, the Wizard class automatically gains ranks in the Arcana skill at level-up.  If you take a level of a class that gives automatic ranks as your first character level, then you gain 4 ranks in the skill.  If you take a level of a class that gives automatic ranks at any character level other than first, you gain 1 rank in the skill.

If you do not have a given skill as a class skill, and then take a level in a class that gives automatic ranks in that skill, then you still gain the automatic ranks in that skill.  This is an exception to the normal rule that you cannot gain ranks in a non-class skill, however you still cannot invest further skill points into that skill as normal.  For example, a character that takes Fighter as his first level and Wizard as his second level has exactly 1 skill rank in Arcana.  He cannot invest further ranks into this skill because it's not a class skill for the class he took at first level (Fighter).

Skill Tricks -
The limit on the number of skill tricks a character can know is their Intelligence Modifier + 1/2 their character level, rounded down.  As normal, skill tricks cost 2 skill points to learn, and often have pre-requisite ranks.

New Skill Tricks:

Harvest Essential -
Pre-Requisite: Appropriate Profession skill 1 rank, 1 rank in any one of Arcana, Cosmology, Dungeoneering, Nature, Psionics, or Religion
Benefit: You can identify raw materials within your profession with properties particularly useful for use in magical research, as spell components, or for creating magic items, and know how to harvest them in a way that preserves the properties.  Whenever you make a Profession check in a profession that involves gathering raw materials, such as Profession (Miner) or Profession (Herbalist), you square your check result, and gain an amount of Essential equal to the resulting value in GP.  This Essential can be bought or sold as a trade good, used in the creation of magic items, used for scribing spells into a spellbook or prayerbook, or for spell research at a 1:1 ratio.  If the Essential comes from an appropriate source, then it can also be used as a spell component.  For example, Essential gained from a Profession (Miner) check can be used as the material component for a Stoneskin spell.

Extra Class Skill -
Benefit: Select one skill.  You add that skill to your list of class skills.  After selecting this skill trick, you can invest class ranks in the skill as normal.
Special: This skill trick can be learned more than once.  Each time it applies to a different skill that you add to your skill list.  Each instance of this skill trick learned counts against the limit on the number of skill tricks you can know.

Extra Language -
Benefit: Select one language that you don't know.  You can now speak, understand, read, and write that language.
Special: This skill trick can be learned more than once.  Each time it applies to a new language.  Only your first "Extra Language" skill trick counts towards the limit on the number of skill tricks you may know.

Forge Magic Item -
Pre-Requisite: Craft 1 rank and Arcana, Cosmology, or Psionics 1 rank
Benefit: You can create magic items that you have the appropriate schema for.  You can memorize a number of Schemas equal to the number of ranks you have in an appropriate Craft skill, and can use any number of written schemas so long as they're present through the process of creating a magic item.  Your Craft skill must be appropriate to the magic item being created; for example, you could use the Craft (Leatherworking) skill to make magic boots or a magic cloak, and the resulting items will be made of leather, but you couldn't use that skill to make a magic sword.
When creating the item, you must have raw materials or Essential equal to 1/3 the cost of the magic item to be created (not including the cost of any non-magical components, such as the armor for a magical suit of armor).  You make Craft checks (appropriate to the item being created) each day or week, and follow the guidelines in the Craft skill to determine your progress with the following exceptions: your progress is measured in gold pieces each day, or platinum pieces each week, and the amount of progress made with a successful check is your check result squared times the DC.  The DC to create a magic item is 10 + the required caster level of the item + the level of the highest-level spell the item requires, and can be adjusted as normal for crafting items.

Sanctify Relic -
Pre-Requisite: Nature or Religion 1 rank
Benefit: You can bless an item with the power of your deity or divine ideals (or the power of the natural world), imbuing it with power that can be used by others that share your goals.  Effectively, this skill trick satisfies any Item Creation feat pre-requisites for the sake of creating magic items.  You must still meet caster level and spell requirements on your own.  If the item has a non-magical cost component, such as a suit of armor or a weapon, then you must possess a completed non-magical component in order to create the item.
When blessing the item, you must have raw materials or Essential equal to 1/3 the cost of the magic item to be created (not including the cost of any non-magical components, such as the armor for a magical suit of armor).  You make Nature or Religion checks (appropriate to the item being created) each day or week, and follow the guidelines in the Craft skill to determine your progress with the following exceptions: your progress is measured in gold pieces each day, or platinum pieces each week, and the amount of progress made with a successful check is your check result squared times the DC.  The DC to create a magic item is 10 + the required caster level of the item + the level of the highest-level spell the item requires, and can be adjusted as normal for crafting items.

Scribe Schema -
Pre-Requisite: Arcana, Cosmology, or Psionics 1 rank
Benefit: You can design a magic item and detail its creation in such a way that a craftsman with the Forge Magic Item skill trick can follow the instructions to create the item at a later time.  You must meet the pre-requisites of the item that you wish to design, except for any Item Creation feats necessary.  A craftsman that knows or has a copy of a given schema on-hand is exempt from any pre-requisites required for creating a magic item.  Scribing a schema requires access to ink and paper or parchment, but is otherwise of trivial cost.
If you have both the Scribe Schema and the Forge Magic Item skill tricks, you must still either scribe or memorize the schema in order to create the item, otherwise you are unable to organize your thoughts coherently enough to successfully create the item.

Second Craft -
Pre-Requisite: Craft 5 ranks
Benefit: You can use your Craft skill with the highest number of ranks as if you had another craft skill.  For example, if your highest skill was Craft (Leatherworking), you could use your Craft (Leatherworking) skill to make Craft (Bowcraft) checks.  Using your primary Craft skill in this way incurs a -4 penalty to your Craft check.

Second Profession -
Pre-Requisite: Profession 5 ranks
Benefit: You can use your Profession skill with the highest number of ranks as if you had another Profession skill.  For example, if your highest skill was Profession (Sailor), you could use your Profession (Sailor) skill to make Profession (Fisherman) checks.  Using your primary Profession skill in this way incurs a -4 penalty to your Profession check.

Sinister Alchemist -
Pre-Requisite: Thievery 5 ranks
Benefit: You can use the Thievery skill to craft poisons as if you were trained in Alchemy.  Using your Thievery skill in this way incurs a -4 penalty to your Thievery check.  You can not substitute your Thievery skill for any other purposes of the Alchemy skill.

Sinister Trapsmith -
Pre-Requisite: Thievery 5 ranks
Benefit: You can use the Thievery skill to craft traps as if you were trained in Engineering.  Using your Thievery skill in this way incurs a -4 penalty to your Thievery check.  You can not substitute your Thievery skill for any other purposes of the Engineering skill.

Special Notes on Item Creation:
You may notice that while most item creation feats have been covered with the Forge Magic Item, Sanctify Relic, and Scribe Schema skill tricks, the Craft skill cannot duplicate the Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Construct, or any of the various Graft creation feats.

Scrolls (and Power Stones) are created the same way as other magic items are, as detailed in the Forge Magic Item skill trick.  Wizards and Sorcerers simply use Arcana, Clerics use Religion, Druids use Nature, and Psionic classes use Psionics to create the items instead of the relevant Craft skill.  No schema is required, simply the ability to cast the spell(s) that the scroll will contain.

Potions are created using the Alchemy skill.  A spellcaster that is trained in the Alchemy skill can create any potion they meet the pre-requisites of, or a spellcaster with the Scribe Schema feat can create a schema instructing a mundane alchemist in the method of producing a given potion (an alchemist can memorize a number of magical schemas equal to his ranks in the Alchemy skill, just as other crafters do, and having access to a schema exempts the alchemist from meeting any of the pre-requisites for creating the item).  As usual, creating a potion always requires a single day of work, you simply make an Alchemy check against the Craft DC and determine success or failure normally.

Constructs will eventually become a much more complicated system, but for now an Engineer can create magical constructs the same way a Craftsman creates a magic item, and must have a Schema in order to do so.  However, this system is inappropriate for the creation of Homunculi, and as such they're simply un-creatable until I figure out a method of creating them that I like.

Grafts are much more complicated than any other method of item creation in 3.5e.  Indeed, I could probably make an entire post going into grisly detail about how the various kinds of grafts are created and attached to their users.

More Skill Tricks:
This list is just the beginning.  Basically every feat that was ever so terrible that it wasn't worth taking or every feat that was so good that everyone had to take it will be converted into one or more skill tricks.  Examples of this are feats like Psionic Meditation (on one end of the spectrum) and Combat Focus (on the other).  Going through all the freaking books and picking out all the freaking trash feats, however, is exhausting.  I tried doing that with Complete Adventurer and was banging my head against a wall half-way through.  As such, I'll make these skill tricks on-demand.  If something is interesting and suits your character, like Quick Reconnoiter, then some version of that feat can be re-made into a skill trick for your character.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 02:47:00 AM »
Reserved for new class skill lists, skill points per level, and automatic skills.

Core Classes:
Barbarian; 3+int, Athletics automatic
Acrobatics, Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Intimidate, Nature, Perception, Profession, Ride

Bard; 4+int, Perform (Singing) automatic
Acrobatics, Alchemy, Athletics, Arcana, Bluff, Concentration, Cosmology, Craft, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, History, Insight, Nature, Perception, Perform, Profession, Psionics, Religion, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery

Cleric; 2+int, Religion automatic
Concentration, Cosmology, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, History, Profession, Religion
The Animal and Plant domains add Nature to the Cleric skill list.
The Knowledge and Magic domains add Arcana to the Cleric skill list.
The Travel domain adds Endurance to the Cleric skill list.
The Trickery domain adds Bluff and Stealth to the Cleric skill list.

Druid; 2+int, Nature automatic
Athletics, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Nature, Perception, Profession

Fighter; 2+int, Endurance automatic
Athletics, Craft, Endurance, Engineering, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, Profession, Ride

Monk; 4+int
Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcana, Concentration, Cosmology, Craft, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, History, Insight, Nature, Perception, Profession, Psionics, Religion, Stealth

Paladin; 2+int, Religion automatic
Athletics, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Endurance, Insight, Profession, Religion, Ride

Ranger; 4+int
Acrobatics, Athletics, Concentration, Craft, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception, Profession, Ride, Stealth

Rogue; 5+int, Thievery automatic
Acrobatics, Alchemy, Athletics, Arcana, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Endurance, Engineering, Insight, Intimidate, Perception, Profession, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery

Sorcerer; 3+int
Alchemy, Arcana, Bluff, Concentration, Cosmology, Craft, Profession, Streetwise

Wizard; 2+int, Arcana automatic
Alchemy, Arcana, Concentration, Cosmology, Craft, History, Profession, Religion
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 04:55:14 PM by X-Codes »

Maat_Mons

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1041
  • What is a smile but a grimace of happiness?
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 03:43:27 AM »
Have you considered letting people use a skill rank to purchase a new item type for craft, a new instrument for perform, or a new field for profession just as they can do now to purchase a new language?  You could have one craft skill which covers all item types you've bought, much as there is currently one bluff skill and one diplomacy skill which cover all languages you've bought. 

I can't say I like the idea of making the order of classes matter even more.  Someone who's going to multiclass between two classes should be able to choose to take either class first and have it be a reasonable option.  With this system, there's no reason not to take the class with the best skill list. 

Really, locking in a skill list at first level doesn't seems too different from locking in base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit dice at first level.  Actually, if you did all those things, at least non-skill-focused classes would be an option for first level for a multiclass character. 

ThisGuy01

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 93
    • Email
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 05:13:37 AM »
It looks like a decent system overall, but with one thing that I've always disliked about skill fixes; Stealth.  Hiding and moving silently are two very different things and I think they deserve separate skills.  Look at a ranger that's hunting.  If they're crouching in a tree not moving, they're hiding.  But if they're going to a tree to hide in, they'll want to be moving silently.  I just think the two are different enough to need different skills.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 12:04:19 PM »
^^
But game wise, no character that would be hiding would be incapable of moving silently, and vice versa. What you're saying is just imposing a skill tax on those skilled types.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

oslecamo

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 02:29:43 PM »
^^
But game wise, no character that would be hiding would be incapable of moving silently, and vice versa. What you're saying is just imposing a skill tax on those skilled types.

One word: Invisibility.

A wizard may turn himself invisible, but he can still be heard just fine. That's an important part of fantasy if you ask me, being able to still hear someone if you can't see them.

So what you call a skill tax, I call preventing effects like Invisibility and turning into tiny creatures perfect stealth.

If anything, skilled types should get more skill points. I'm in a campaign right now where the Dm says we all get +50% base skill points (not those granted by big Int). That way it actually rewards skill monkeys whitout seriously buffing everybody else as well.

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 03:06:35 PM »
Invisibility just needs to be a circumstantial bonus or adjust the target DC, naturally.
It helps greatly in avoiding being pinpointed, while being less effective towards being detected at all.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 04:19:12 PM »
Have you considered letting people use a skill rank to purchase a new item type for craft, a new instrument for perform, or a new field for profession just as they can do now to purchase a new language?  You could have one craft skill which covers all item types you've bought, much as there is currently one bluff skill and one diplomacy skill which cover all languages you've bought.
I've already got some skill tricks that cover just that.  I forgot to add the one for Perform.

I can't say I like the idea of making the order of classes matter even more.  Someone who's going to multiclass between two classes should be able to choose to take either class first and have it be a reasonable option.  With this system, there's no reason not to take the class with the best skill list. 

Really, locking in a skill list at first level doesn't seems too different from locking in base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit dice at first level.  Actually, if you did all those things, at least non-skill-focused classes would be an option for first level for a multiclass character. 
Actually, they don't matter more, they just matter differently.  Once you pick your first class, the order of the remaining classes doesn't matter at all, anymore.  At least, not with regard to skills.  Also, I'm intending to make other changes that weight the first level more to make non-skill considerations matter.

It looks like a decent system overall, but with one thing that I've always disliked about skill fixes; Stealth.  Hiding and moving silently are two very different things and I think they deserve separate skills.  Look at a ranger that's hunting.  If they're crouching in a tree not moving, they're hiding.  But if they're going to a tree to hide in, they'll want to be moving silently.  I just think the two are different enough to need different skills.
It's not about the skills being "different enough" to be listed as different, it's about the opportunity cost to learn one or another, or the idea that one skill is trained while the other isn't.  It doesn't make sense to become good at creeping around like a shadow while not simultaneously learning to remain unseen.  Also, the Arcana skill now encompasses basically all things arcane magic.  It doesn't make sense that a Wizard can train 4 ranks in almost everything that makes him a Wizard (as opposed to a Sorcerer or something) while a Rogue has to spend the exact same time learning to either move very loudly, but unseen, or very quietly, but obvious to everyone.  If anything, the Stealth skill is over-priced.  Problems with Invisibility are problems with Invisibility.

If anything, skilled types should get more skill points. I'm in a campaign right now where the Dm says we all get +50% base skill points (not those granted by big Int). That way it actually rewards skill monkeys whitout seriously buffing everybody else as well.
I intend to buff skill monkeys by making skills relevant, and then not making skills so good that you have to be a skill monkey by giving other classes at least 3 skills per level (for example, a Wizard will be 2+int w/ Arcana automatic, the least skilled character possible, while Rogues will have 5+int w/ Thievery automatic, the highest skilled character possible).  I'm probably going to add those in, now.

Catty Nebulart

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
    • Email
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 04:41:59 AM »
If anything, skilled types should get more skill points. I'm in a campaign right now where the Dm says we all get +50% base skill points (not those granted by big Int). That way it actually rewards skill monkeys whitout seriously buffing everybody else as well.
I intend to buff skill monkeys by making skills relevant, and then not making skills so good that you have to be a skill monkey by giving other classes at least 3 skills per level (for example, a Wizard will be 2+int w/ Arcana automatic, the least skilled character possible, while Rogues will have 5+int w/ Thievery automatic, the highest skilled character possible).  I'm probably going to add those in, now.

So what you are saying is that the wizard is the skill money? (20 int for SAD wizard; 2+5=7 vs the 12 int for the MAD rouge which only gets 5+1=6 skill points) :p

Those stats might be a bit to extreme, but they are certainly not completely out of the question, and even with an 18 int the wizard will still equal the rouge in skillpoints per level, and the wizard will keep buffing int. The +50% gives the high skill characters a big enough base so that the skill-monkey doesn't need int so badly and can dump it somewhat.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 05:10:25 PM »
1) Rogues aren't MAD.  People have this idea that Sneak Attack makes Rogues a Combat Class, which is utterly and completely false.  Sneak Attack makes a rogue semi-relevant in combat until their UMD gets to a point where they can use wands and scrolls reliably, or until they're able to pick up a level of Wizard or Sorcerer and jump into Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper.

In other words, a Rogue with less than 14 Intelligence is doing it wrong, and that 14 Intelligence is only excusable if he's got at least a 16 in Charisma.

2) There are no cross-class skills in this system.  There are class skills, and skills you don't get.  As such, that Wizard with 18 Int (20 Int optimizes Intelligence, sure, but races with a +2 to Int and +0 LA are not the only optimal wizards) can't put those skills into the same kind of skills as the Rogue without buying the Extra Class Skill trick repeatedly.  This means that even with equal skill points, the Wizard has fewer actual ranks invested, and only as many or fewer available skill tricks to improve those ranks.

Also, the 50% boost makes classes with both low skills and low Intelligence absolutely useless at the skills game.  Fighters are never useful outside of combat, Barbarians are rarely useful in the same situations, and Clerics and Sorcerers are likewise useless until they have enough spells per day to spam their respective skill boosters (which detracts significantly from their overall capabilities).

Catty Nebulart

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
    • Email
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2011, 08:00:44 AM »
Also, the 50% boost makes classes with both low skills and low Intelligence absolutely useless at the skills game.  Fighters are never useful outside of combat, Barbarians are rarely useful in the same situations, and Clerics and Sorcerers are likewise useless until they have enough spells per day to spam their respective skill boosters (which detracts significantly from their overall capabilities).

Fighters, paladins and socrerers yes, but barbarians and clerics have at least 4 skillpoints (more with cloistered cleric) and so do most other classes. Fighters are already useless at skills with 2 per level and low int. If you want to play a smart fighter play a warblade. Also since it just gives extra points it leaves more room for fluff skills, and even the fighter benefits from one extra skillpoint.

At worst this just diminishes the importance of int for skills, at best this gives the skill monkeys a slight boost over the int focused classes.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: [3.5e] X-Codes's Compacted Skill System
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2011, 04:41:29 PM »
Also, the 50% boost makes classes with both low skills and low Intelligence absolutely useless at the skills game.  Fighters are never useful outside of combat, Barbarians are rarely useful in the same situations, and Clerics and Sorcerers are likewise useless until they have enough spells per day to spam their respective skill boosters (which detracts significantly from their overall capabilities).

Fighters, paladins and socrerers yes, but barbarians and clerics have at least 4 skillpoints (more with cloistered cleric) and so do most other classes. Fighters are already useless at skills with 2 per level and low int. If you want to play a smart fighter play a warblade. Also since it just gives extra points it leaves more room for fluff skills, and even the fighter benefits from one extra skillpoint.

At worst this just diminishes the importance of int for skills, at best this gives the skill monkeys a slight boost over the int focused classes.
Clerics have 2 skill points per level.  The fact that Fighters are strictly inferior to Warblades is AWFUL game design.  There's still no reason to exclude Paladins, Fighters, Sorcerers, Clerics, and every other character with a mere 2+int skills per level from the skills game.  I do not intend to diminish the importance of Int for skills, I intend to increase it.  There should be a penalty for having a character that's dumb as a rock, and I feel this system pushes forward the goal of accomplishing that without giving Wizards undue influence in the skills game (I did point out all the taxes I put on Wizards before, didn't I?).