Author Topic: Tier 1 Fighter Mod  (Read 6070 times)

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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2010, 07:33:59 PM »
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....

What effects were you looking at in particular?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0
this is the kind of stuff I was talking about that Tier 1's can do or Tier 2's can spam some of them
(though I'm not saying that a tier3 or lower can't have these kinds of effects either, but in that case they are usually a one trick pony)

i guess what I'm saying is that to make a fighter Tier 1, you either have to add full casting or be able to shrug it off(as well as another Tier 1 could one way or another)
Did you link to the right spot? Most of those things aren't a real problem for a person with really high stats. The others are defeated by teleporting, easily attained by a class that is being given 3 feats a level. Whether through  blink shirt, Fey heritage, or shadow jump manuevers.
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2010, 11:11:04 PM »
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....

What effects were you looking at in particular?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0
this is the kind of stuff I was talking about that Tier 1's can do or Tier 2's can spam some of them
(though I'm not saying that a tier3 or lower can't have these kinds of effects either, but in that case they are usually a one trick pony)

i guess what I'm saying is that to make a fighter Tier 1, you either have to add full casting or be able to shrug it off(as well as another Tier 1 could one way or another)
Did you link to the right spot? Most of those things aren't a real problem for a person with really high stats. The others are defeated by teleporting, easily attained by a class that is being given 3 feats a level. Whether through  blink shirt, Fey heritage, or shadow jump manuevers.
yes, that was a link to a bunch of no save allowed spells/ abilities
the kinds of things that can make a plain fighter just suck for example, Awe of Dantalion, force cage etc....

but I also see where you are coming from   what tier is a fighter that gets 3 feats per level and takes all of the leadership type feats?   
are there feats that allow a fighter to break the game at the level that a wizard can? (create a plain for example?)
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veekie

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2010, 08:06:55 AM »
^^
Yes, use Leadership to get a wizard cohort.
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2010, 10:25:49 AM »
so you're saying that fighter is already Tier 1 RAW?
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2010, 07:47:32 PM »
so you're saying that fighter is already Tier 1 RAW?
By that logic, wouldn't everything be Tier 1?

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2010, 11:41:20 PM »
so you're saying that fighter is already Tier 1 RAW?
By that logic, wouldn't everything be Tier 1?

That depends on how you define Tier 1 and there seems to be more than a few positions on how the classes should be ranked. 
here are 3 examples

JaronK:        http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0

Ubernoob:    http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.0

lans:           http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5291.0



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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2010, 12:32:04 AM »
Well, no, not really. If Leadership to get a Wizard cohort makes the Fighter Tier 1, then any class that can take Leadership is Tier 1.

krusk

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2010, 05:27:38 AM »
You basically need to give the fighter save or die effects. Throw in a called shot mechanic and thats a good start.
Level 1- Choose melee or ranged.
Melee- You can cut people's faces off with attacks. If they hit, the opponent must roll a save or die. Free action.
Ranged- You can shoot people's faces off with attacks. If they hit, the opponent must roll a save or die. Free action.

Branch them out over all 20 levels letting the ranged people do it at a bigger range, and the melee people do it while cleaving when someone fails a save or something.

Fast healing of some form, preferably fighter levels/round or something.

Level 5 or so they should be able to make theme appropriate magic items. Weapons, armors, rings, and generally things that need forging are ok. Hats, sandals, and wands are not. Do it as though you were a wizard with the spells you should have, even though you aren't.

Level 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 let them pick from a list of abilities like "Cut through reality" that lets you cast planeshift, because you literally cut the border between planes and can walk through. The list should be like 10 things long, of similar power. All should be "Utility"

Level 20- Can't die anymore. If something would kill you it doesn't. (swords either pass through harmlessly, you immediately regen, or whatever)

This is in addition to needing a bonus feat every level, and the ability to swap out your bonus feats at will. IE I am level 5 and have the two weapon fighting tree. I find a sweet katana, and switch to some form of a two handed fighting tree.

Probably also should be able to ignore prereqs for "Martial" feats, and take epic feats. Worthwhile SR is also important.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 05:31:30 AM by krusk »

veekie

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2010, 07:05:46 AM »
Save or die doesn't make you a T1, it just makes you a T3 if thats your only trick.
Monks have Save or Die.
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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2010, 05:20:20 PM »
Save or die doesn't make you a T1, it just makes you a T3 if thats your only trick.
Monks have Save or Die.
A SoD that has the same DC formula as Standstill might be T2. Provided the class is otherwise T3.
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krusk

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2010, 08:08:43 PM »
Save or die doesn't make you a T1, it just makes you a T3 if thats your only trick.
Monks have Save or Die.

That's why it gets tricks like "cut through planes" allowing them to planeshift, and things like "can make items" so it can make boots of flying, shields of gaze attack reflection or whatever is needed for the given situation. "other similar abilities" to plane ut could be "swiftness of the wind" you can run so fast you treat it like the teleport spell.

Amechra

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2010, 12:28:07 AM »
Give them the ability to make a fort save against spells that don't allow saves.

Give them the ability to use their AC as SR a number of times per day.

Give them something PA like that gives them more options (Turn BAB into a penalty against an opponent's SR, perhaps?)

In other words, make them metal.

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dither

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2010, 10:05:54 PM »
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2010, 10:07:56 PM »
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
So...infinite feats, then? That way there's no choice involved! :D

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2010, 10:12:01 PM »
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
So...infinite feats, then? That way there's no choice involved! :D
The problem is that not all feats have entirely positive effects - for example, the Apostate feat gives you SR against all divine spells - but you can't lower it, for example, if you want to be healed. So you're not always automatically better off having a feat than not (although most of the time, admittedly, you are, even if the benefit is shitty for the prize).
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Bozwevial

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2010, 11:27:55 PM »
I don't know if it's been said, since I didn't read through all the posts, but I think giving the fighter unlimited feats would render them unplayable. Too much choice is bad choice.
So...infinite feats, then? That way there's no choice involved! :D
The problem is that not all feats have entirely positive effects - for example, the Apostate feat gives you SR against all divine spells - but you can't lower it, for example, if you want to be healed. So you're not always automatically better off having a feat than not (although most of the time, admittedly, you are, even if the benefit is shitty for the prize).
Ah, but infinite feats=infinite Toughness. No healing needed. :P

JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2010, 09:34:16 AM »
i think a certain number of feats should do it..... but how many?

wizards break spells, artificers break items,  a tier 1 fighter should break feats... maybe items that are found...

X amount of bonus feats per level, that scale with higher levels

maybe free ranks in UMD....   

and I like the warblade ability that lets you change weapon specific feats to another weapon every day, that would be appropriate...


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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2010, 03:21:53 PM »
Taking a page from E6 how about a scale based on the amount of EXP it takes to go to next level.  Take the base amount of fighter feats and then give the another feat for every 3k experience they get for example.
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2010, 03:26:21 PM »
i think a certain number of feats should do it..... but how many?

It isn't the number of feats that makes feats broken, but the quality of feats that gets broken. Trust me, you could give Wizards the same restrictions for preparing spells that Clerics have and it wouldn't do a thing (other than make them easier to build).

What's broken about spells is how many spells are useful beyond the level you get them at. Grease retains use from 1st to well into 8th or 9th level (and people even prepare it all the way up to 20th level just because some things don't remember to fly). Likewise with Glitterdust.


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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2010, 09:12:21 PM »
Thats why I decided to add Fighter level to any numeric effect provided by a feat, which means one or two feats should put the fighter pass the effect line of about any effect, Iron will+Luck of heroes would add 43 to his will save. It also allows weird iteration with some feats. This allows the fighter to be a tier 2  monster with the extra feats being thrown at him.

I can't think of a way for a spell caster to really affect him out side of Word spells.
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