Author Topic: Tier 1 Fighter Mod  (Read 6062 times)

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JohnnyMayHymn

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Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« on: September 04, 2010, 01:26:05 AM »
So what would it take to make a Fighter Tier 1?



__________________________Here's my first draft_______________________________
HD d12
all good saves
full BaB
DR1/--   progresses to DR20/--  @ 20th level
spell resistance 1: progresses to spell resistance 20 @ 20th level
weapon proficiency: all
armor proficiency: all including tower shields
ignore penalties for offhand attacks
ignore all armor penalties
3 bonus feats/level chosen from any feat you qualify for

_____________________
60 feats too many?  not enough?  to match the power of a Tier 1 caster? (cleric, archivist, wizard, druid etc...)

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 01:33:22 AM »
So what would it take to make a Fighter Tier 1?
9th level spells.
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Garryl

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 01:35:37 AM »
Sounds like about Tier 3 to me. DR is okay at low levels but doesn't count for much at high levels. SR of your level is useless (any caster of at most 1 level beneath you bypasses it without rolling). 3 feats per level is useful, but there are only so many good ones, and they don't usually add what you really need, extra options. At best you'll spend most of them on Shape Soulmeld, Martial Study/Stance, and other feats that grant you access to the alternative magic systems. Those won't get you above what those systems grant the classes designed to use them, though. Sounds like a solidly powerful Tier 3 class.

If you want to make a Fighter into a Tier 1 class, you're going to need to look at what the Tier 1 classes actually get to do. Look at the Wizard spell list, even just in the PHB/SRD. Take a look at everything they can do. Flight, teleportation, changing the battlefield to suit their whims, controlling time, turning into a creature that makes trained fighters look like wimps, summoning and ordering around creatures that make trained fighters look like wimps, creating entire new realities, and that's just for starters.
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 04:21:10 AM »
Eh, just being able to stop someone else from doing all that crap is a pretty good argument that you're on par with them, and in that case the Frank and K Races of War fighter gets pretty close. It's probably Tier 2, in that regard. It's also fairly versatile with the floating Combat feat.
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 04:46:40 AM »
At minimum, your SR should be 10+your level if you want it to be at all effective. A SR of 1 will literally do nothing.

Nick

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 04:58:21 AM »
Give him d20 HD, all good saves.

SR is calculated at 20 +figher levels
DR is calculated at 20/- + fighter levels
Pounce
Quickened teleport at 1/2 figher level /encounter
Improved Evasion
Mettle
Slippery Mind
Deflect Arrows and rays with anything
+ class level and double dex modifier on initiative rolls
Give him all class features of the warblade, swordsage and crusader, as well as the best combination of maneuvers known, prepped, stances known and the warblade and crusader maneuver recharge mechanic.
Build in a Ring of Spellbattle that works at 1/2 fighter level /encounter
Free magebane property to all his weapons.

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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2010, 05:45:50 AM »
ok thanks for the input lets try this

__________________________Draft II:     IRON CANNON SKILL GORILLA   _______________________________
HD d20    (d100?)
all good saves
full BaB           --(will this need to be higher than full BAB? perhaps double BAB if dual wielding? or monk stuff see below?)
DR1/-- @1st level   progresses to DR20/--  @ 20th level
spell resistance 10: progresses to spell resistance 30 @ 20th level
weapon proficiency: all
armor proficiency: all including tower shields
ignore penalties for offhand attacks
ignore all armor penalties
3 bonus feats/level chosen from any feat you qualify for
(EX):At each level you may take any number of bonus feats as long as you qualify for them. 
     This cannot be used to take a feat that can be taken multiple times using the same choices.
     For example you could chose weapon focus: dagger and weapon focus: great sword, but you
     could not choose toughness more than once using this ability.
skill points per level: 10 + int Mod + Wis Mod
class skills: All yes all skills
something different (EX): if wearing two locking gauntlets you are able to effectively wield 2 one-handed weapons
                                  and use 2 shields at the same time (except tower shields)


_____if this doesn't work(at least tier 2) all feats IS kinda scary_____maybe add some of these..._______
rogue sneak attack progression without the sneaking (it's just a damage bonus cause you're THAT badass)
wildshape progression as druid5,master of many forms10,druid5(with ex abilities added via MOMF)
monk speed 
monk unarmed damage/flurry of blows(but not as a full attack make it a bit quicker-standard action?) -
          maybe you can also flurry using weapons?
gain a swim speed and a climb speed of half your land speed (think olympics and ninja warrior)


ok the point of all this is a demonstration of the shenanigans that need to be used in order to get ANYWHERE close to the power level of full casters using only non-magical melee type stuff

@nick hrmm ToB..... I have that book but I play mostly casters so that didn't come to mind... I'll take a closer look but from what I understand
it's mostly tier 3 stuff in there....
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Nick

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2010, 06:04:51 AM »
@nick hrmm ToB..... I have that book but I play mostly casters so that didn't come to mind... I'll take a closer look but from what I understand
it's mostly tier 3 stuff in there....

When you have the most number of maneuvers known and prepped and a recharge mechanism that's at once automatic and swift, its tier 2 at least.

Plus you win D&D at level 20.
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veekie

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 10:50:53 AM »
Even then, T2 is difficult to claim, remember the Fighter is excellent at delivering raw statistical impact. Hes just permanently in that little corner of "swing sword, repeat".
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 01:55:39 PM »
I still don't see any stopping of time, ripping of holes into reality, or creation of new planes of existence going on.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 01:58:22 PM by Agita »
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Nick

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 03:38:14 PM »
Here's another Tier 1 mod then.

HD: not bothered
BAB: not bothered
Saves: not bothered
Skills: not bothered

Class features

Level 1: Imagine Breaker - Choose of your hands to exude a personal bubble of Anti-magic field. The size of this anti-magic field increases by 5ft at every odd level. All of the Fighter's equipment, abilities etc continue to work in this field. This field negates psionics too if your world does not observe the magic-psionics transparency rule.

Level 1: Sharingan - You can duplicate any spell/power/invocation/whatever performed in front of you. You use your class level as your caster level but use the primary casting stat of the original caster. You can still duplicate the spell even if your casting stat is insufficient to cast the spell. Enjoy your book keeping.

Level 2: Projection - You may, as per Call Weaponry power at will as a move action, draw forth any weapon of your choosing of a cost within twice your class level (MIC wealth by class level). This ability works once per encounter + once every class level. This weapon will last as long as you hold onto it and disappears once it leaves your hand (unless the weapon is meant to be thrown, which disappears once thrown at an enemy, whether it is successful or not. It may return if you imbue it with the returning enchantment)

Once per day, you may call forth any weapon of your choose of a cost four times your class level. This weapon lasts till the end of the encounter.

Level 3 : Mask of the Inner Demon - You may as a move action, manifest a battle mask over your face, as well as any other cosmetic changes you wish and gain incredible fighting prowess. Once per encounter, increasing by one more per encounter every odd levels, you gain a +2 bonus to your Str, Dex and Con and a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls, including rolls to confirm a critical hit. Every three levels after this, the bonuses increase by 2. This ability lasts as long as your modified Con modifier. You are fatigued once this ability ends for the rest of the encounter, or 10 minutes if the encounter is over. You may dismiss this state as a free action.

Level 4: Protagonist Luck - As the hero of the story, you gain exceptional luck. You gain the equivalent of the paladin's Divine Grace ability as well as evasion, which improves to improved evasion at level 8. This evasion ability applies to all three saves, not just Ref (coz I dunno wtf the names of the other abilities are called if they exist)

Level 5: Protagonist Resilience - You gain DR 10/- + class level. You gain Regeneration 5 + class level /BBEG, meaning only the BBEG of the game can bypass your regeneration.

Level 6: Gate of Babylon - You have turned your Projection beyond the simple creation of a weapon, but turned the ability to project into an actual firing skill. Each use of your Projection ability for the encounter gives you a choice of firing said weapons at every target you designate within your sight range. Each weapon fired at the enemy can be a unique Projection if you so wish. Meaning you use 1 Projection use per encounter to fire a unique Projection at every enemy within visual range without range increment penalties.

Level 7: Press the 'B' Button - As an immediate action, you expand and focus Imagine Breaker into an impervious Barrier that functions as a Wall of Force that extends as a perfect protective sphere at the outer edge of your Imagine Breaker range. You can do this as many times as your class level per encounter.

Level 8: Press the 'C' Button - As an immediate action, once per day and once more at every even level, you can temporarily unhinge Imagine Breaker to erase all projectiles threatening yourself or your allies, any positive buffs on your foes or any harmful magical effects targeting yourself and your allies. All foes except the designated 'boss' of the encounter must make a save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 class level + Con mod or die. Successfully saving against this effect deals 1d10 dice of damage per class level.

Level 9: Row Row Fight The Power - Once per encounter, the Fighter may do the impossible and see the invisible. Which means, when encountering an encounter that has too high a challenge rating, or the DMPC turns out to be the enemy that's too high in encounter level for the party to handle, the Fighter rises to the challenge, temporarily upgrading himself to the encounter's highest ECL.

Level 10: I'll Be Back - The Fighter never dies. He benefits from a True Resurrection without fail, unless plot items, plots or DM fiat renders it impossible. As such, this ability still kicks in from an alternative angle. Maybe the protagonist cannot rise from the ashes. Maybe his long-lost and forgotten twin brother steps up the stage as the exact replica. Maybe his party members step in to stage an elaborate rescue from whatever soul jar or soul trapping shit. Maybe the parallel universe spits the Fighter back into the play. No matter what, the Fighter cannot be denied his destiny of stabbing the BBEG to death and winning the game.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 04:54:23 PM by Nick »
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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 09:13:44 AM »
The original is about tier 3,  change the SR to 3 a level can be raised or lowered as a free out of turn action.

In addition to 3 what ever feats, lets just give him the good ones.

The one that lets you summon a demon of half your character level.
Boomerang daze, Item Familiar, Truespeak crap(it works with Item Familiar), that binding line for versatility, Ancestral relic, Fey and demon heritage line.
Complete Champion stuff, elder evil and incarnum stuff.

Then let him add fighter level to any number that appears because of a feat after all other calculations are done.
So the DC for boomerange daze would be 10+damage+fighter level and the fiendish summoning one would let you summon a beasty with a CR of 1/2L+Fighter level for an hour+fighter level a day.

Then let the feats to apply to one thing apply to another so you can use your boomerange daze with a suglin.
That's be at least tier 2
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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2010, 09:52:22 AM »
I was thinking about the ramifications of adding fighter level to the effects of all the feats and I'm gonna go on and say that it will at least raise the fighter to tier 3 or where ever being able to compete with monsters with out equipment but still  being able to use equipment gets you.

Weapon focus You have + 42 to attack with a master work weapon at level 20.With greater weapon focus its +60 and 44 to damage. So full attack would kill about any thing.

 Though Knowledge Devotion would be better choice still.

The +1 to all saves feat will leave you with saves of 33/27/27 a SOD used against you from just about any monster will fail.

Dodge, armor focus, or combat expertise will give you an AC of at least 10+~21 per feat put towards this.

Skill focus leaves you as skilled as the guy who put max ranks. The +2/+2 ones are almost that in the two skills they  boost. If there is a +1/+1/+1 skill boost it would be the best.

Improved X will give you +24 to those modifiers which normally don't work against big strong things.

So pretty much it would allow the fighter to not be overshadowed by things the wizard summons outside of gate and template stacking.
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2010, 12:02:00 PM »
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....

so maybe an ability that creates a DC for these types of effects, perhaps based on the spell level or class level of the class that granted the opponent the ability to use the no save effect, or the creatures HD if nothing else applies
(this wording is meant to be stronger against multiclass casters) HA!
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2010, 01:37:19 PM »
Eh, just being able to stop someone else from doing all that crap is a pretty good argument that you're on par with them, and in that case the Frank and K Races of War fighter gets pretty close. It's probably Tier 2, in that regard. It's also fairly versatile with the floating Combat feat.
That was my first thought, as well.
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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2010, 05:51:58 PM »
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....

so maybe an ability that creates a DC for these types of effects, perhaps based on the spell level or class level of the class that granted the opponent the ability to use the no save effect, or the creatures HD if nothing else applies
(this wording is meant to be stronger against multiclass casters) HA!
True, thats why I only said it would be tier 3 by its self. With the 3 feats a level you would easily to pick up feats like midnight dodge giving 1+level essentia and dodge bonus, blink shirt, immunity to mind affecting effects and the like edging out the no save effects that work. It also frees up money to help deal with nsod.

Abyss Bound Soul:Demigorgon would be on tier 2 par power wise with this. Being able to summon CR 1/2 level+level should do that. Though it does seem that they don't have as many abilities as they did in 3.0.

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lans

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2010, 05:07:56 AM »
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....

What effects were you looking at in particular?
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2010, 08:18:07 AM »
even if you had infinite stats, fighter is still hosed by no save effects of spells etc....

What effects were you looking at in particular?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9207.0
this is the kind of stuff I was talking about that Tier 1's can do or Tier 2's can spam some of them
(though I'm not saying that a tier3 or lower can't have these kinds of effects either, but in that case they are usually a one trick pony)

i guess what I'm saying is that to make a fighter Tier 1, you either have to add full casting or be able to shrug it off(as well as another Tier 1 could one way or another)

a RL example would be to take an actual sword and shield to a LARP game and start hacking, the fighter in this case knows that the magic is not real,
and it doesn't affect him, cops show up(DM fiat) and ruin the "fun"

this is the kind of Tier 1 nonsense I am looking to replicate in the game(while being balanced with other Tier 1's---if u can call it that at this point)
in short: Fighter wants to play melee rocket tag, lets make it happen!

EDIT: W :o W I was really tired when I posted this, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!!!
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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2010, 11:49:07 PM »
EDIT: W :o W I was really tired when I posted this, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!!!
And yet you condone guitar-playing monkeys. Double standards much?
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Tier 1 Fighter Mod
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2010, 02:13:23 AM »
EDIT: W :o W I was really tired when I posted this, I DO NOT CONDONE THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR!!!
And yet you condone guitar-playing monkeys. Double standards much?
scratch that
ok I guess I was tired when I posted that too,  Now I DO condone that kind of behavior.

Thank you Prime, for helping me to assess my personal values. 

and thanks every1 for the ideas, I would be interested in reading more..  even if that means necromancy ;:; at some point

i guess an easier way to look at this problem would be to ask, how can we make the TOB base classes Tier 1
the answer obviously would be to make maneuvers that are as powerful as spells

so if all party members can then rape the game, and all enemies can rape the game, and the DM, well he already could....
this should make for a balanced game of rocket tag (hardcore mode, if you will)
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