Author Topic: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects  (Read 30890 times)

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Maat_Mons

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2010, 10:59:10 AM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Actually, master specialist's moderate school esoterica for abjuration does that. 

Bauglir

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2010, 11:35:13 AM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Actually, master specialist's moderate school esoterica for abjuration does that. 

Well, f*ck me sideways. Wizards win at everything again, although presumably they won't have Improved Evasion due to the level sink required for it, although they could pick up Mettle with a level of Pious Templar, which might be worth it since you still get 9th level spells.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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KellKheraptis

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2010, 01:22:25 PM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Actually, master specialist's moderate school esoterica for abjuration does that. 

Well, f*ck me sideways. Wizards win at everything again, although presumably they won't have Improved Evasion due to the level sink required for it, although they could pick up Mettle with a level of Pious Templar, which might be worth it since you still get 9th level spells.

It's actually any spell that allows a save for partial effect, the master abjurer ignores on a successful save.  So yeah, Evasion and Mettle, only better :)
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Bauglir

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2010, 01:43:34 PM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Actually, master specialist's moderate school esoterica for abjuration does that. 

Well, f*ck me sideways. Wizards win at everything again, although presumably they won't have Improved Evasion due to the level sink required for it, although they could pick up Mettle with a level of Pious Templar, which might be worth it since you still get 9th level spells.

It's actually any spell that allows a save for partial effect, the master abjurer ignores on a successful save.  So yeah, Evasion and Mettle, only better :)

I feel dumb. Also, less powerful than a wizard.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

KellKheraptis

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2010, 01:49:31 PM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Actually, master specialist's moderate school esoterica for abjuration does that. 

Well, f*ck me sideways. Wizards win at everything again, although presumably they won't have Improved Evasion due to the level sink required for it, although they could pick up Mettle with a level of Pious Templar, which might be worth it since you still get 9th level spells.

It's actually any spell that allows a save for partial effect, the master abjurer ignores on a successful save.  So yeah, Evasion and Mettle, only better :)

I feel dumb. Also, less powerful than a wizard.

Not to compound the feeling, but the ability and level usually shows up on one of the most obnoxious wizard builds ever to grace the CArc/CMage hybrid : Wizard/Master Spec/Iot7FV :) 

"I don't need Mettle...I'm invincible." -hides from Red Wizards-
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fuinjutsu

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2010, 07:29:00 PM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Ahem. Master Specialist (Abjurer)
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2010, 07:59:32 PM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Ahem. Master Specialist (Abjurer)
See the last dozen posts.
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fuinjutsu

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2010, 08:04:31 PM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Ahem. Master Specialist (Abjurer)
See the last dozen posts.

Well this is going to be my moment of shame.   :D
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Bauglir

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2010, 08:16:33 PM »
There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.

Ahem. Master Specialist (Abjurer)
See the last dozen posts.

Well this is going to be my moment of shame.   :D

Fantastic, I'm not the only one.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2010, 01:50:29 AM »
Caustic Mire and its invocation counterpart, Complete Mage
ty

Fell drain applied to hail of stone is one example.
Hail of stone was already listed.

Spell: Deadfall, Druid 8, from Spell Compendium.
ty

Wind Wall - no shooting through this, except for giants and catapults.

Web - make your save and still be inside a Web. Move out very slowly.

Wall of Stone - you're friggin' stonewalled!

Entangle - your movement is impeded no matter what, even if you're not entangled.

Plant Growth - Entangle on speed, with a vengeance.

Pyrotechnics - the cloud effect blocks sight, even darkvision.

Sleet Storm - no save, no SR, you can't see a thing and can't even get out in one round because the radius is HUGE.
Nice catch on pyrotechnics. Wind wall for archers? Do the bolts get the SR check?

wall of stone allows a reflex save if used usefully. A big fat summoned monster to block off the path is more useful (as is wall of sand which is a lower level). Plant wall is similar - anything powerful enough to worry about no save, no hit, no sr will just fly over the jungle.

master specialists care not for your 'no matter what' entangle or web. Sleet storm was already in there.

Evasion and it's Improved Brethren only affect effects with Reflex: Half, and even then only on effects that deal damage as the effect that gets halved. There is no defense against effects with Reflex: Partial or similar entries.
I understand it might be dangerous to read between the lines, but this is very clearly a "all reflex saves are for damage spells" assumption, meaning that 'half' was supposed to be a reflex saves version of 'partial'. Interpreting things in favor of non-casters (monks and rogues are just zomgwtfbbqimba!) won't hurt either.
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snakeman830

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2010, 02:03:10 AM »
For Binding, I know two of the Vestiges grant Gaze Attacks, one of which is no-save Acid damage (and as a Supernatural ability, there's no SR).  I can't recall which vestige grants it, but their sign gives you four more eyes around your head.
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Maat_Mons

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2010, 02:01:59 PM »
The fell metamagic feats from Libris Mortis, when applied to the right spells. 
examples please?
Fell drain applied to hail of stone is one example.
Hail of stone was already listed.

The point is, fell drain can be used to give a negative level with no attack roll, no save, and no SR as long as it is applied to a spell that deals damage with no attack roll, no save, and no SR. 

The only reason I mentioned hail of stone is because, when I mentioned fell drain the first time, you asked for an example.  Now you're saying you won't consider fell drain until I give you an example based on a spell that hasn't already been brought up

PhaedrusXY

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2010, 02:03:09 PM »
For Binding, I know two of the Vestiges grant Gaze Attacks, one of which is no-save Acid damage (and as a Supernatural ability, there's no SR).  I can't recall which vestige grants it, but their sign gives you four more eyes around your head.
Geryon, IIRC. Balam also has a weak gaze attack, I think.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2010, 09:55:41 PM »
For Binding, I know two of the Vestiges grant Gaze Attacks, one of which is no-save Acid damage (and as a Supernatural ability, there's no SR).  I can't recall which vestige grants it, but their sign gives you four more eyes around your head.
ty but
Geryon, IIRC. Balam also has a weak gaze attack, I think.
Geryon has a will save for the acid and balam has 1 for the cold damage

The point is, fell drain can be used to give a negative level with no attack roll, no save, and no SR as long as it is applied to a spell that deals damage with no attack roll, no save, and no SR.
Doesn't everyone know this?

The only reason I mentioned hail of stone is because, when I mentioned fell drain the first time, you asked for an example.  Now you're saying you won't consider fell drain until I give you an example based on a spell that hasn't already been brought up?
Heh. Take a deep breath. If you wanted a note about fell drain added, just say so. This is not however what your original post seemed to indicate. Indeed, most of the spells on this list can use fell drain this way - its a major reason for compiling this thing. All I want are things to add to the list...
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Maat_Mons

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2010, 10:52:25 PM »
Doesn't everyone know this?

If it doesn't require a hit roll, doesn't allow SR and gives an effect that doesn't even allow a partial save, we need it in this list.
If you wanted a note about fell drain added, just say so.

Fell drain, fell frighten, and fell weaken can all be used to bring about negative effects on enemies with no attack roll, no save, and no SR.  Things that can be used to bring about negative effects on enemies with no attack roll, no save, and no SR are what this thread is all about.  Including a mention of these metamagic feats in this thread seems to be the sensible thing to do. 

This is not however what your original post seemed to indicate.

What other possible interpretation is there? 

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2010, 12:07:42 AM »
There's no save for anything but falling over if someone starts to play their giant magic vuvuzela.


Also: Kingdoms Of Kalamar, player's guide
Irresistible spell
Quote
"Nobody can resist your spells"
Prereqs: Spellcaster level 7, envelop the wall, maximize spell
Benefit: Spells that you cast that normally allow a saving throw do not allow a saving throw.  An irresistable spell uses up a slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level.

That's a feat that aged badly.  It's actually decently balanced, if there aren't any MM reducers in play.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 06:39:44 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2010, 04:23:29 PM »
I don't know if this got mentioned or not, but Spell Vulnerability is has a sister spell, or maybe it was renamed to "Lower Spell Resistance", found in the Draconomicon.
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Beltendu

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2010, 07:00:32 PM »
I suspect, Maat, that his point is more that the metamagic feats aren't the parts doing the heavy lifting - it's the spell.  After all, it's not like you can just hit someone with the Fell Drain without a spell ... :)

Of course, I'm pretty sure there ARE feats that say their effect provides a save even if the thing they're riding on doesn't, so perhaps a section on metamagic/psionic/insertYourFavoriteMechanicThatIsn'tASpell feats that don't require an extra save is a good idea after all ... :)

Emy

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2010, 07:25:43 PM »
I can't believe anticipate teleportation and anticipate teleportation, greater never got mentioned in this thread.

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Re: No Hit, No Save, No SR effects
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2010, 01:33:32 AM »
It's not amazing, but Kelgor's Grave Mist only has a save against part of the effect.  The rest hits automatically.  Not bad for a long range AoE 1st level spell.

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