Author Topic: Vow of Poverty  (Read 37845 times)

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Bauglir

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Re: Vow of Poverty
« Reply #120 on: September 05, 2010, 01:19:30 PM »
Yeah, ok, I'm at this point just posting in an attempt to clarify what I was saying before. Consider this post to overwrite the last one I made.

For Heretic of the Faith to protect something, it has to be a class feature (or spell, but let's ignore that for now), and it has to be one you'd lose purely as a consequence of violating your deity's code of conduct, WHATEVER that code of conduct may be. As in, it has to be contingent upon having the "Code of Conduct" class feature, or, arguably, Cleric restriction. It can't merely be that your code of conduct contains "have VoP", because your having VoP is not contingent on adhering to your Code of Conduct (mechanically; in terms of character behavior, it is, but that's not what we're talking about here). Is the distinction I'm getting at clear here? If having Vow of Poverty isn't something that depends on following a code, then you can't lose it by breaking that code; even if the same action violates both, you lose Vow of Poverty for the action, not for violating the code.

As I see it, the only way to satisfy the first requirement is to get Vow of Poverty as a class feature-granted bonus feat. The only way to satisfy the second is to gain that bonus feat from a class feature that you lose when you violate your Code of Conduct class feature, in the same way that a fallen paladin loses his mount. There are only a few things that satisfy both requirements, to my knowledge.

First, gaining VoP as a bonus feat from following an Elder Good. If your Code of Conduct contains, "Follow the Elder Good", then now you gain bonus feats as a consequence of having your Code of Conduct, and those bonus feats are all contingent upon adhering to it. You need to be a Paladin for this to work, otherwise your Code of Conduct is not a class feature; a Cleric doesn't have a Code of Conduct as a class feature, which means that VoP isn't a class feature-granted bonus feat, and therefore is not eligible for protection under HotF. You need to be in Faerun for this to work, otherwise you can't make additions or modifications to your Code of Conduct in order to account for your deity without pure DM Fiat (as far as I'm aware). Whether VoP's requirements still apply is arguable, but you can claim that the entirety of Vow of Poverty, including its restrictions, is part of your Code of Conduct, and therefore something you can grossly violate. That's good enough for me. Note that this only works because a Paladin loses his Code of Conduct upon violating it.

Secondly, a prestige or base class other than Paladin or Cleric that has a class feature that functions similarly works just as well. If the class grants bonus feats which are dependent on adhering to the code, you don't need the Elder Good and don't need an explicit "Code of Conduct" class feature for everything to be dependent upon. If you require the Elder Good, you need a code which you can modify in order to include "Follow the Elder Good".

EDIT: A cleric with a domain that grants a bonus feat, Dark Chaos Shuffled to Vow of Poverty, also works, but is very silly. Works in any setting, though. All methods other than the Explicit Code of Conduct+Elder Good one (which accounts for everything already) require having "Adhere to the requirements of Vow of Poverty", explicitly referencing Vow of Poverty, in order to work, so that violating VoP is an act of violating one's code by that reason alone, and thus is protected.

And yes, I'm trying to hold the RAW to the strictest possible interpretation. When you're arguing for silly things like "Vow of Poverty, but with equipment!" that's sort of the position you have to hold. It clearly flies in the face of RAI, after all.

And Grey Guard is just SO much simpler to reason through because of the insanely vague wording of its capstone.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 01:41:35 PM by Bauglir »
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.

something random

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Re: Vow of Poverty
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2010, 08:42:42 AM »
Question: would getting VoP from that Elder Good in Eberron count as part of your religious code of conduct, and thus be protected from VoP losing?

Consider a level of cleric to skip HotF, which is one of my all-time favorite feats.

And thanks for the cookie.

Prostitute (to Paladin with Vow of Chastity and HotF): Hey good lookin' want a good time?
Paladin: Ummmmm...
(Looks at his God. God smiles and gives a thumb up.)
Paladin: It's OK with my Deity, so yep!

Heretic of the Faith: it let's Paladins have sex.

(Actually, Paladin Prostitutes would be jawesome; all that Charisma, and absobloodylutely no chance of getting STDs. Wait, what was the name of that Chaotic Good Deity from BoED that teaches that sex is OK?)

That would be Lastai although her teaching focus heavily on equality and the prevention for of exploitation.
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Amechra

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Re: Vow of Poverty
« Reply #122 on: September 08, 2010, 01:16:26 AM »
Ah, yes, Lastai. Too bad we can't have standard paladins devoted to her, because that would be hilarious.

Still thinking about the viability of Paladin prostitutes.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Vow of Poverty
« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2010, 01:19:32 AM »
Ah, yes, Lastai. Too bad we can't have standard paladins devoted to her, because that would be hilarious.

Still thinking about the viability of Paladin prostitutes.
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Bauglir

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Re: Vow of Poverty
« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2010, 02:59:37 PM »
And the best part is, they'd retain a lot of power even while they're on the job! What with Vow of Poverty. Just make sure that +8 enhancement goes into Cha and you're set.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

In retrospect, much like Keanu Reeves.