Author Topic: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder  (Read 8675 times)

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Unbeliever

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 03:37:59 AM »
Being able to write War and Peace in Russian doesn't mean you can write a Harry Potter book in French, even if you know some of the words that would go into a War and Peace in French.

See, he qualifies with Divine, but he starts learning arcane...

-.-
This is an oddity of the prestige class, it totally allows you to start divine and learn arcane, so not an issue w/ qualifying.

Benly's analogy is still inapt.  You are making an argument that spells of different levels are quite different incompatible things.  You have no support for this argument.  I totally understand your analogy, it just has no support, and as TML has pointed out, there is a lot of stuff weighing on the other side.  Not the least of which is, as TML points out, that spell levels are measures of complexity, and therefore should be considered additive.

Benly

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 10:55:23 AM »
As I've said, I agree that it's probably RAI that Rage Mage be qualified for with "second level or higher", but strictly speaking the level of a spell is a measure of a non-divisible trait it possesses. The text TML found doesn't deny this; instead the argument he is making is that the flavor text suggests that higher-level spells should be adequate for the purpose. In terms of the coins-and-screws analogy, he is essentially asking "well, is it that bad if we use a 15mm screw and it sticks out a bit?"

McPoyo

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 11:31:01 AM »
Wasn't there an FAQ entry on PrC prereqs that stated the listed was always a minimum requirement, not an absolute?
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Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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Unbeliever

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 02:05:31 PM »
As I've said, I agree that it's probably RAI that Rage Mage be qualified for with "second level or higher", but strictly speaking the level of a spell is a measure of a non-divisible trait it possesses. The text TML found doesn't deny this; instead the argument he is making is that the flavor text suggests that higher-level spells should be adequate for the purpose. In terms of the coins-and-screws analogy, he is essentially asking "well, is it that bad if we use a 15mm screw and it sticks out a bit?"
For the record, I think RAW is a useless concept.  It's contrasted w/ Rules as Intended, which is a separate kettle of fish, but RAW itself still involves heavy interpretation, as all language does, especially all rules do.  That's why the IRS is so large. 

But, I still think the screws thing is weak.  Moreover, it is unclear to me why divisibility is a relevant concept.  The screws analogy, the way you want to use it, implies that there is no relevant connection between a 4th level and a 5th level spell.  But, everything in D&D is premised on there being such a connection, namely that a 5th level spell is more powerful (complex, etc.) than a 4th level one.  This relationship between levels is hardwired in D&D's DNA. 

A prerequisite has to be tracking something, and what it is tracking is a character's abilities.  So, if a character is able to do something of complexity X, then it seems she should be perfectly capable of doing something less complex than X.  That's part of that power and complexity relationship. 

I'm going to reiterate an earlier question, though.  This point seems, frankly, obvious to me.  Is there anyone who as a DM wouldn't let it fly? 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 02:13:36 PM »
Wasn't there an FAQ entry on PrC prereqs that stated the listed was always a minimum requirement, not an absolute?
I don't remember one. FWIW, I agree that RAI the requirements should be a minimum. I just don't think it's RAW. But I also think RAW is kind of a worthless term, only useful for hypothetical discussions on message boards, and not used in real games, so...
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Benly

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 03:33:03 PM »

But, I still think the screws thing is weak.  Moreover, it is unclear to me why divisibility is a relevant concept.  The screws analogy, the way you want to use it, implies that there is no relevant connection between a 4th level and a 5th level spell.  But, everything in D&D is premised on there being such a connection, namely that a 5th level spell is more powerful (complex, etc.) than a 4th level one.  This relationship between levels is hardwired in D&D's DNA. 

The reason I am harping on divisibility is because people are saying "well, if a fourth-level spell doesn't qualify you for Must Have A Second Level Spell, you have to say five skill ranks doesn't qualify for Must Have Four Skill Ranks, and that's obviously absurd." This argument does not hold up, because five skill ranks automatically contains four skill ranks and a fourth-level spell does not automatically contain a second-level spell. This is the difference of divisibility. The argument there is unsound, and it is that argument that I'm replying to.

I think it is entirely reasonable to houserule or errata (however you want to see it) that the prerequisite should be read as "second level or higher". The argument that spell levels and skill ranks apply the same way in this case is logically unsupportable, however.

InnaBinder

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2010, 04:50:13 PM »

But, I still think the screws thing is weak.  Moreover, it is unclear to me why divisibility is a relevant concept.  The screws analogy, the way you want to use it, implies that there is no relevant connection between a 4th level and a 5th level spell.  But, everything in D&D is premised on there being such a connection, namely that a 5th level spell is more powerful (complex, etc.) than a 4th level one.  This relationship between levels is hardwired in D&D's DNA. 

The reason I am harping on divisibility is because people are saying "well, if a fourth-level spell doesn't qualify you for Must Have A Second Level Spell, you have to say five skill ranks doesn't qualify for Must Have Four Skill Ranks, and that's obviously absurd." This argument does not hold up, because five skill ranks automatically contains four skill ranks and a fourth-level spell does not automatically contain a second-level spell. This is the difference of divisibility. The argument there is unsound, and it is that argument that I'm replying to.

I think it is entirely reasonable to houserule or errata (however you want to see it) that the prerequisite should be read as "second level or higher". The argument that spell levels and skill ranks apply the same way in this case is logically unsupportable, however.
The argument that a 4th level spell automatically contains a second-level spell would seem to be closer to valid in a build with Versatile Spellcaster, to my mind.
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Benly

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2010, 04:58:07 PM »
The argument that a 4th level spell automatically contains a second-level spell would seem to be closer to valid in a build with Versatile Spellcaster, to my mind.

This is true for slots but not spells, and the Demonbinder's problem is the lack of low-level spells known. There are ways to smush together slots or slice them apart, but none for the actual spells you use with them. The only way I know of to change the spell level of an actual spell is Heighten Spell.

In fact, the logic that allows Heighten Spell to allow for early PrC qualification without high enough slots is the same logic that indicates that chopping a fourth-level slot down to a second-level slot does not qualify you as having the ability to cast a second-level spell if you have no second-level spells known.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 05:18:17 PM by Benly »

jameswilliamogle

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2010, 05:28:12 PM »
I don't remember one. FWIW, I agree that RAI the requirements should be a minimum. I just don't think it's RAW. But I also think RAW is kind of a worthless term, only useful for hypothetical discussions on message boards, and not used in real games, so...
+1.  Do whatever BS your DM allows.

Fancypants early entry:
Heighten + Earth Spell + Versatile Spellcaster (4th level Sorc, 1st level Druid) = 4th level Summon Monster spell @ 5th level :D

I think the answer to the OP is no, though.  But most DMs would say "sure!" anyways.

awaken DM golem

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2010, 08:52:57 PM »

A better analogy is saying "You need a bucket that can hold three gallons of water, but all you have is a bucket that can hold four gallons"


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awaken DM golem

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2010, 07:46:56 PM »
slept on it .. dreamed a little ... and not about Jessica Alba for a change ... (sigh) ...


Y'know ... this a kinda an inverted version of the whole Precocious Apprentice feat is 2nd level spells thing.
I mean the simple answer is : It's a 2nd level spell. It's covered. Problem solved.
And this version of it is : It's a 4th level spell. It's obviously covering 2nd level spells.

But clearly there was a very long argument about that one,
so why wouldn't there be an argument about this one?

Benly

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2010, 08:26:46 PM »
Y'know ... this a kinda an inverted version of the whole Precocious Apprentice feat is 2nd level spells thing.
I mean the simple answer is : It's a 2nd level spell. It's covered. Problem solved.
And this version of it is : It's a 4th level spell. It's obviously covering 2nd level spells.

"It's a second level spell. Clearly it meets the second-level spell prereq. Problem solved."
"It isn't a second-level spell. Clearly it meets the second-level spell prereq. Problem solved."

It's not necessarily just orneriness that makes people not see your point of view as inherently obvious, y'know. ;)

fuinjutsu

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:12 PM »
Uhm, can't you just find a way to put two 4th level spells on the nar demonbinder list and thus avoid this issue completely?
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Benly

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Re: An Apparently Un-Simple Question about Nar Demonbinder
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:55 PM »
Uhm, can't you just find a way to put two 4th level spells on the nar demonbinder list and thus avoid this issue completely?

If you find a way to put a second-level spell on the Nar Demonbinder list (arcane disciple should do, for example) then you're set, yeah.