Author Topic: XP Penalties and Dual Progression  (Read 14997 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2010, 11:22:24 PM »

He also disallows Tome of Battle.  He takes the view that ToB balances melee vs. caster to not include the fact that in a typical party the casters are buffing melee.


In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*

There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!

But that's beside the point.


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Mixster

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 12:21:15 AM »

He also disallows Tome of Battle.  He takes the view that ToB balances melee vs. caster to not include the fact that in a typical party the casters are buffing melee.


In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*

There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!

But that's beside the point.

Unless you're a diplomancer.

Or a monk
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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McPoyo

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 01:13:36 AM »

He also disallows Tome of Battle.  He takes the view that ToB balances melee vs. caster to not include the fact that in a typical party the casters are buffing melee.


In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*

There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!

But that's beside the point.

Unless you're a diplomancer.

Or a monk
Then that would be:
-Make them give you all their loot, then kill themselves
or
-Die and give the party all your gear

Diplomancer and monk, respectively.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 04:56:13 AM »
-Die and give the party all your gear

It would work that way if so many Monks hadn't taken VoP. For them, it's just "Die and try not to embarrass us too badly in the process".


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McPoyo

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 06:14:13 AM »
-Die and give the party all your gear

It would work that way if so many Monks hadn't taken VoP. For them, it's just "Die and try not to embarrass us too badly in the process".
Can always sell the body for profit.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 07:46:45 AM »
-Die and give the party all your gear

It would work that way if so many Monks hadn't taken VoP. For them, it's just "Die and try not to embarrass us too badly in the process".
Can always sell the body for profit.

O.o


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jojolagger

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2010, 08:18:57 AM »
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
:clap
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Quotes [spoiler]
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
[/spoiler]

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2010, 08:41:06 AM »
Original poster checking back in here with more perspective.


I understand where my DM is coming from...from his perspective it's like this:  If you have core melee classes in a balanced party then the spellcasters are buffing the party.  If he allows ToB classes then they get buffed as well and they would totally overshadow the core classes. 

Thing is , my DM hasn't had the education I have received on these boards and still feels like FIghters, Rangers, Paladins and Monks hold their own.  I tried to explain to him once why Monks sucked but he didn't believe me.


Another one of his arguments is that the Tier system is stupid because it doesn't take into account things like a Fighter 20 is going to have the leadership feat, be the general of a vast army, be loaded with magic items (which wizards have to spend xp to create), and be buffed by his wizard cohorts casting 9th level spells.  He takes a holistic view of balance.

Sadly this means that normal fighters, paladins, and monks would be overshadowed by the Warblades, Crusaders and swordsages.  His stance is that if one player uses them then all need to, including him making his NPC adversaries such.


He  also doesn't like Psionics.  I haven't even bothered to ask him about Incarnum.
 

Sinfire Titan

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2010, 08:46:49 AM »
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
:clap
Just checking If I can siggy this.

Go ahead.

Quote
I understand where my DM is coming from...from his perspective it's like this:  If you have core melee classes in a balanced party then the spellcasters are buffing the party.  If he allows ToB classes then they get buffed as well and they would totally overshadow the core classes. 

That perspective is all wrong: Melee classes are not balanced. Neither are casters. If a caster buffs another caster (Wizard/Cleric buffing a Druid), that second caster will be much more powerful.

The Bo9S classes are not balanced against the Core melee, they are balanced against PH2 Melee classes (save for the Dragon Shaman, but that's a special exception). If the DM allows Duskblades, there is no reason he shouldn't allow a Warblade (they are damn near the same thing)



The idea that all classes in Core are Balanced has been proven false. Casters are so far ahead that it isn't funny. An all caster party will fare much better than an all noncaster party. And by "much", I mean they will be able to defy the CR mechanic entirely (case and point: 3rd level Wizard VS the Tarrasque=Wizard wins, hands down).

Core-noncasters cannot defy the CR mechanic (then again, they both suffer from poor design).




Want a good example? Rogue VS Wizard at opening a Master-level lock (DC 40). The Rogue cannot physically use Open Lock to bypass this item until well past 10th level, while the Wizard can get around it starting at 3rd level (1st if CArc is allowed). Yes, the Wizard can only do this once or twice a day at 3rd level, but that's more than the Rogue is capable of for the next 7 levels.

It just gets more ridiculous from there. That same Wizard can sodomize Undead encounters, but the Rogue is going to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs. The Wizard will be able to fight flying creatures starting at 3rd level (earlier if he picks Medium Range spells), but the Barbarian can't do so unless he's specifically built as an Archer (a concept that runs contrary to the flavor of the class, and is very niche). Note that the Wizard is capable of doing this with only class features, no magic items needed.

This is why the idea of Core being even remotely balanced is appalling. Show this to your DM. He needs to understand that he is very much wrong about Tome of Battle.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 08:59:40 AM by Sinfire Titan »


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weenog

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2010, 08:48:47 AM »
Another one of his arguments is that the Tier system is stupid because it doesn't take into account things like a Fighter 20 is going to have the leadership feat, be the general of a vast army, be loaded with magic items (which wizards have to spend xp to create), and be buffed by his wizard cohorts casting 9th level spells.
For this at least, you should probably point out to him that everyone else can do the same thing, while still being a real class capable of accomplishing things on their own.  And that the bard, sorcerer, and cleric will all do it better because they'll have higher Cha scores (might not want to point out right away that a magic-using general can buff their own army rather than the waste of space PCs, that seems a little advanced and might confuse the poor guy).
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jojolagger

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2010, 08:53:39 AM »
Another one of his arguments is that the Tier system is stupid because it doesn't take into account things like a Fighter 20 is going to have the leadership feat, be the general of a vast army,
The wizard will have an army of casters, which is almost always better.
Another one of his arguments is that the Tier system is stupid because it doesn't take into account things like a Fighter 20 is going to be loaded with magic items (which wizards have to spend xp to create) and be buffed by his wizard cohorts casting 9th level spells.
With one Feat the wizard can get as a bonus feat the wizard can cripple any item related build. Craft construct, and a furtive Filcher homunculus. "What's that, you wizard friend needs his component pouch to buff you? You mean this pouch?"

So the Fighter is equal to the wizard because the fighter has a wizard minion? What about the wizard having a wizard minion?

Have you considered asking about turenaming or Shadow magic?

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Quotes [spoiler]
In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*
There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
When you use a tool the way it was designed for -- its intended function -- then it will work very well for you.

But it's not the tool's fault if you use it for something else and you fail utterly, such as trying to eat cereal with a butterknife, pounding nails with a screwdriver, blogging to voice your political opinions, and brushing your teeth with a hammer.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2010, 09:02:53 AM »
Have you considered asking about turenaming or Shadow magic?

I'd hope not! Truenaming is one of the five subsystems that is universally-agreed to be broken (as in "Red Ring of Death" broken, not Planar Shepherd broken).

Shadow Magic? About on par with the Ranger past level 7. Before that? Far too limited in daily abilities to be of any use.


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mBelchezere

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2010, 09:04:10 AM »
Okay, I can't fathom what you're going through man. Honestly I probably would've already left that group and lost their numbers, but thats just me and I've been spoiled by multiple house rules that "DO" keep the party balanced for those in my group that love to build a god-killing whatever they want at lvl 1. Our DM just adjusts his CR and HP on the monsters or stacks on a template or 2, but we've also instituted a recent rule where we have revolving DM's. Keeps everyone in the game and lets you plan for the future of your character by how many lvls you up the party before your triumphant return!!!! Which is another "balance" oriented ruling we have, "THE BUBBLE", if you miss or are DMing for an encounter or so your character lvls as the party and no one is ever allowed to be above the party lvl.

Now as for your predicament , if they want balance but you want to optimize just try making a Karsite Binder 15/ KoTSS 5 or if you can't force them to see reason with the earlier given ruling on prestige classes just do full binder. But also you need to go on wizards and get the new vestiges. You will have all the freedom you could want, be more than able for any situation that arises, plus at high lvls since your group doesn't optimize you'll get that sweet revenge you know you want :evillaugh :devil bc you are now binding 4 beings into yourself and can take on most anything thats thrown at you by this sad sad little DM of yours.

Oh yeah, are they allowing Unearthed Arcana with the LA buy off? It just helps get rid of the LA +2 of the Karsite.  Also you should definitely take leadership if you have a high charisma which you should if you're a binder.

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2010, 09:23:08 AM »
I'd like to ask that people not make disparraging remarks about my DM in this thread.  He is a friend and I'd like to show him this thread.  I asked for helpful suggestions not to turn this into another "My DM is an idiot thread" like the link someone posted.

He has cited that requiring material components is a check against spellcasters which many people here seem to overlook.

So far no one has said anything that negates his assertion that ToB makes core melee classes obsolete.

If someone felt like being civil and eloquent so I can show him a properly thought out perspective on the matter, I'd love to be able to articulate why classes like Monk and Paladin suck that DOESN'T rely on "x classes are better."  In other words if one was playing core-ish only why would one choose to not play a monk?  And please no "Just play Druid 20" suggestions.  We all know casters are god, but not everyone wants to play a caster all the time.

Help me out here!

Thanks...

weenog

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2010, 09:51:58 AM »
Requiring material components is a check against spellcasters which many people don't mention because it goes without saying, and because in a lot of cases, it doesn't mean much.  Any generic material component that doesn't have a cost of 1 gp or higher is in your spell component pouch, if you have the pouch, you have it, and spare component pouches are cheap.  Spells that cost a bunch of money to cast are generally avoided,  and if not they're accounted for in gear suggestions (if those suggestions are made at all) or expected to be taken out of the leftover money in the gear suggestion, according to how much the player thinks they'll need.  Fake spells (mainly shadowcraft illusions) don't require the components of the spells they're faking, they aren't that spell.

ToB doesn't need to make the core melee classes obsolete, they've been that way since well before ToB came out.  They've been obsolete since other core characters have been able to do their jobs better than them while still being able to do other stuff, whether it's via summoning, creating walls, self-buffing up into a Fighter Plus, hijacking a brute monster with mind-affecting spells, or killing things without bothering to damage their hp by way of save-or-die effects, ability damage or the like.

Monk specifically sucks because it doesn't play well with itself -- its abilities don't cooperate.  Its two main features are mobility and flurry of blows, and you can't flurry while you're playing hit and run because flurry requires a full attack action.  Late on you get fun stuff like Abundant Step (based on dimension door, so you're not allowed to take ANY actions after you do it, let alone flurry or stunning blow).

Even your bonus feats don't work well with what you're given -- take your 2nd-level bonus feat, for example.  You get either Combat Reflexes, or Deflect Arrows.  Deflect Arrows is pretty pointless because you aren't going to be at long range for long, your ranged options are terrible, you don't get any good weapon proficiencies there and your class features don't support hanging back, so you'll be getting up close ASAP.  Combat Reflexes would be nice if you could threaten a significant area, but you don't have any reach weapon proficiencies so even if you did get into threatening position, people can just 5' step away and laugh at your Combat Reflexes while they do what they were going to do.

6th-level bonus feat isn't doing much better, you've got Improved Disarm based on BAB (which you're behind on) and Str (which you're ALSO behind on, because you need too many abilities and can't afford to have any one or two of them very high), or Improved Trip mainly based on Str (great, no BAB involvement means you only lose once, not twice).

At 1st level you get Improved Unarmed Strike (not great, but not terrible) and either Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple -- Stunning Fist isn't too bad, except the save DC relies on your Wis (which you're behind on, because you need too many abilities and can't afford to have any one or two of them very high).  Improved Grapple has the same problem as Improved Disarm.

Probably the best thing you can do with monk is dip levels 1 and 2 to get Improved Grapple and/or Combat Reflexes on a character with the strength, BAB, and reach to make use of them, like a build heading for a Fist of the Forest, Bear Warrior and War Shaper.  Course at that point you're not really being a monk, you're just dipping it and probably taking as few levels of the core classes as you can get away with.

I could go on, but ripping into the core monk is old, tired, and boring, you can see this stuff for yourself if you really take a look at it.
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Benly

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2010, 03:16:50 PM »
I'd like to ask that people not make disparraging remarks about my DM in this thread.  He is a friend and I'd like to show him this thread.  I asked for helpful suggestions not to turn this into another "My DM is an idiot thread" like the link someone posted.

He has cited that requiring material components is a check against spellcasters which many people here seem to overlook.

So far no one has said anything that negates his assertion that ToB makes core melee classes obsolete.

If someone felt like being civil and eloquent so I can show him a properly thought out perspective on the matter, I'd love to be able to articulate why classes like Monk and Paladin suck that DOESN'T rely on "x classes are better."  In other words if one was playing core-ish only why would one choose to not play a monk?  And please no "Just play Druid 20" suggestions.  We all know casters are god, but not everyone wants to play a caster all the time.

Help me out here!

Thanks...

The essential problem of Casters Vs. Everyone Else is that casters get more actual options.

For example, at level 1, a fighter's options, if he has been built with an eye towards versatility, are "hit a guy" or "knock him down and then hit him". Possibly "unsettle him a little".

The wizard, with no special effort, has the options "hit a guy", "knock him down and hit him", "make him run screaming", "make him instantly lose consciousness", "make him fall in love with me", and "make him weak as a kitten". Or, if he wants, he can make the fighter ten feet tall, or enchant the fighter's sword.

At higher levels, the fighter will probably add the option "hit him really hard" and possibly "push him around, and then hit him". The wizard, meanwhile, can choose to hit everyone within a 20' radius, or choke them all with poisonous vapors, or curse him into uselessness, or molest them to death with tentacles from the shadows, or make them so scared they just die. Or he can turn the fighter into a hydra - or, for that matter, he can turn one of his skeletal underlings into a hydra, so that it can now hit things really hard even better than the fighter. And unless the fighter has sunk some seriously hardcore work into "hit him really hard" at the expense of the other options, his "really hard" won't be as big as the wizard's "really hard" anyway even aside from the hydra thing.

Of course, this is just combat options. Out of combat, the wizard maintains an equally absurd array of options while the fighter gets two skill points per level and hence may be able to ride a horse or look scary. (The wizard, for comparison, can spacewarp anywhere he feels like going, and as mentioned can make people so scared they die.)

Druids and clerics get the same variety of options as the wizard, albeit with different special effects.

The monk gets the same options as the fighter, except he's not as good at "hit him really hard". The paladin and ranger get the same options as the fighter plus "cast a few spells that are inevitably and by design massively weaker than what the real casters have at this level". Barbarians get the fighter options but are a bit better at hitting really hard. Rogues get the fighter options with better out-of-combat skills and lose the ability to hit things really hard if they don't have lungs to stab.

The basic point of ToB is to let non-caster classes have options that aren't "hit him really hard" - or, if they choose to go that route, at least make them good enough at "hit him really hard" that they're better at it than some random schmuck the wizard turned into a hydra.

BeholderSlayer

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2010, 04:17:40 PM »
I'd like to ask that people not make disparraging remarks about my DM in this thread.  He is a friend and I'd like to show him this thread.  I asked for helpful suggestions not to turn this into another "My DM is an idiot thread" like the link someone posted.

He has cited that requiring material components is a check against spellcasters which many people here seem to overlook.

So far no one has said anything that negates his assertion that ToB makes core melee classes obsolete.

If someone felt like being civil and eloquent so I can show him a properly thought out perspective on the matter, I'd love to be able to articulate why classes like Monk and Paladin suck that DOESN'T rely on "x classes are better."  In other words if one was playing core-ish only why would one choose to not play a monk?  And please no "Just play Druid 20" suggestions.  We all know casters are god, but not everyone wants to play a caster all the time.

Help me out here!

Thanks...

Okay, I'll try to help and be constructive. I'll even do it from a DM's perspective, as I spend a lot of time "behind the screen" (I don't roll with a screen, but you get the point).

Material components are fairly negligible. You get all the cheap ones for just carrying a pouch. You may also carry multiple pouches, so trying to disarm a character of their pouch won't do much for you. The few spells with expensive components are often actually expensive focuses, which are not expended in the spellcasting. The few that are components can be replicated by spells with cheap components.

Trying to argue that ToB classes don't make core melee classes obsolete is an exercise in futility. They do, there's really no way around that. However, as a DM, he needs to consider whether the core melee classes *SHOULD* be viewed as desirable. Technically, you can make a pretty powerful barbarian, so I don't really view that class as incredibly awful (though it requires a specific style of build). As a DM, I take the following perspective: ToB classes are what the Fighter, Paladin, and Rogue (Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage respectively) should have been in the original print. In order to create intra-party balance, characters of all classes need to be somewhat on the same level. Wizards, clerics, and druids played intelligently make the other classes look like Skippy the Punk. ToB classes played with even an average level of intelligence bring melee closer to the power level of casters, possibly to a similar level as a caster played with average intelligence.

ToB classes help remove the mindlessness of melee combat. Instead of a player being relegated to "I press A and auto-attack!" every...single....round...they get a selection of abilities that act like magic. ToB classes allow melee characters to actually participate in the strategic game, rather than being hopelessly relegated to smashing on their "attack button" (I can't help but compare core melee to video games, they're just that mindless). You see, D&D encounters are a fast, lethal game where if you can't do something more than auto-attack, you lose. Martial adepts make melee classes able to participate in a similar strategic setting as spellcasters. The only remotely viable strategic maneuver that a fighter can do is trip, and the party wizard can do it more effectively than the fighter at level 1. By level 8, tripping is virtually impossible for the fighter. Now, he has invested in a tactic that doesn't work anymore. Creatures are too large, too strong, flying, or whatever, and cannot be affected by his trips.

Disarm, sunder, and the other core melee strategic options are bad. Disarming quickly becomes nearly impossible after level 1, and never really matters all that much in the grand scheme of combat. Sundering destroys your loot, and your party will hate you for it. Grappling is a good way to get yourself eaten alive, if you can even pull it off. Pretending that non-spellcasting humanoids are a threat beyond level 7 is a mistake, and spellcasters don't care if you can grapple them because they laugh at being grappled (Dimension Door, Teleport, Travel domain, freedom of movement, etc.).

In summary: the core melee classes were poorly designed as an afterthought to the magic system. Ignoring this clear and simple fact is a mistake. What the Tome of Battle brings to the table for melee classes is the ability to participate where they could not. If it is not yet clear why this is true, I can continue to explain in a later post.

Monks are bad because they have no relevant class features. They pay through the teeth for enhancement bonuses that are something like 4 to 8 times more expensive than a +1 sword (don't feel like looking it up). Stunning fist is a joke, as it targets the strongest creature save and doesn't even have a relevant effect (being stunned doesn't matter). Evasion comes on a ring, or with spells. Disease and poison immunity don't matter, as by the time you get them you've stopped caring about disease and poison (they are both low level threats, and even then are hardly a threat). Spell resistance isn't useful, as by the time you get it spellcasters have a myriad of options with SR: No that obliterate you. IIRC, you don't have any way to get reach, even when enlarged (maybe that was just a houserule from my last DM, though). You have 3/4 BAB and you are a melee-focused class. You are subpar in almost every way to any other melee class, and none of your class features matter.

Paladins are bad because their class features are terrible, with perhaps the notable exception of level 2. Smite Evil grants negligible bonus damage a small number of times per day. Your spells aren't great. You can't turn undead, even though you get it as a class feature. Also, you're highly restricted in your actions due to that pesky "Paladin's Code" thing that gets in the way of smart gameplay consistently. Rather than actually doing your job, you spend time considering how this might affect your alignment. You are, in pretty much every way, worse than even a fighter since you're a melee class without bonus feats.

In summary, again, ToB classes bring to the table the ability for melee classes to actually participate is a reasonable way to the strategic nature of a fast, deadly game where if you can't do more than hit point damage you lose. When I DM, I hand players the ToB and say "Use this" because I want them to have fun, rather than be a waste of space. In fact, I combine the core classes with the ToB classes to some level.

When spell casters are changing the nature of reality with a standard action, being the "big dumb guy with a sword" that only has the ability to pewpewpew for fairly negligible damage as a full round action isn't fun.

Sorry for the Wall of Text.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 04:23:33 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2010, 04:46:56 PM »
Fighters are terrible because they can't do anything that someone else can't also do.  They have no class features at all.  Anyone that was so inclined could pick up the basic feat chain that a Fighter will use and probably do the Fighter's job decently well.  Heck, a Druid beats out the Fighter with a level 1 class feature in melee.  A wolf is a better tripper than a Fighter (they never have to choose between damage and tripping, or being tripped/disarmed in return) for example.  If the Druid decides to buff it (and herself at the same time), it definitely leaves the Fighter behind, and again, that's level 1.

Never mind that the Cleric rapidly becomes better than the Fighter in the Fighter's job in addition to performing his own.  Never mind that the Wizard's familiar can tank better with a Polymorph (starting at 7th).  Heck, the Wizard himself can make a fine showing at level 3 with Alter Self.

Even other Core melee classes have abilities that are helpful besides hitting things.  

Paladins for example:  A little bit of healing saves party resources.  The Mount can be incredibly useful in a number of situations (especially if you go with something besides a horse).  Detect Evil prevents ambushes. Some of their spells can be rather useful, and they can use Divine Feats, which provide a decent range of options.  Now, they're still not that great of a class, but at least they can do something to help..

Oh, and they still are about as good as the Fighter in combat (better against Evil foes)

Barbarians can be surprisingly effective trapmonkeys at times.  Between their Trap Sense and DR, they can locate traps with less risk of being seriously hurt (although, it's still better to just have the Rogue do it)  He also has a lot more survivability in combat and can dish out more damage.  Hmm, isn't that the Fighter's role?  Oh, and he still has 2 more skill points and a decent list of class skills.

Against most foes in the MM, a Rogue that catches a foe by surprise (or has a flanking buddy which can be a summoned monster or the Wizard's familiar, for example) consitantly deals more damage than a Fighter not built for ubercharging can.  Situational, but so is ubercharging (moreso, actually).  Plus, with Ambush feats, the Rogue can do things besides damage.  Oh, and of course out-of combat, the Rogue shines almost as much as the casters.

Rangers, while being more designed for ranged combat, can do ok in melee, especially against favored enemies.  Most of their class features relate to out-of-combat use, though, whcih also makes them rather useful.

Monks have other problems.  As noted above, their class features don't work together.  You basically have to choose between what feature you actually want to use each round, because you can't combine them.  Every other class in the game gives some abilities that work well together.  Not the Monk.  On top of that, a Monk needs 4 ability scores high just to function and pays through the nose to deal with Incorporeal enemies at all.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 04:49:28 PM by snakeman830 »
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McPoyo

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2010, 04:54:26 PM »
Adding on to BeholderSlayer's post, just because spellcasters can buff the fighters and barbarians, they could also buff themselves the same way and do the same job. Polymorph, shapechange, divine power, and the myriad other buffs (and let's face it, a 20% or 50% miss chance guaranteed no matter the guy's attack rolls is better than trying to boost AC to relative levels passed level 7) make them just as dangerous, if not more so, than the fighter and barbarian.

And any class can take Leadership.

The sad fact, is that anything a fighter can do to become a threat in combat, a wizard/sorcerer/druid/cleric/whatever could do as well, plus their regular tricks.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2010, 05:25:56 PM »
Adding on to BeholderSlayer's post, just because spellcasters can buff the fighters and barbarians, they could also buff themselves the same way and do the same job. Polymorph, shapechange, divine power, and the myriad other buffs (and let's face it, a 20% or 50% miss chance guaranteed no matter the guy's attack rolls is better than trying to boost AC to relative levels passed level 7) make them just as dangerous, if not more so, than the fighter and barbarian.
Very, very true. In fact, sometimes it's more beneficial to just buff themselves. Take the example of Polymorph, and let's say you chose an animal familiar. You may share your polymorph, and now you have two hydras that act on the same initiative count. They wade in, kill everything in one round, and the fight is over. You can't get that kind of efficiency, even if you polymorphed the fighter instead.
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