Author Topic: XP Penalties and Dual Progression  (Read 15061 times)

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Thistledown Thurbertaut

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XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« on: August 31, 2010, 04:32:21 AM »
Yo BeeGees!

I'm currently playing in a tabletop campaign in which the DM and group adhere to multiclass xp penalties.  Obviously this makes many of the juicier charop builds too expensive for regular advancment.

I am considering bringing in a new character.  The original build was for a pixie hellfire warlock ur priest eldritch disciple (with a Binder dip or shape soulmeld feat to offset nasty Hellfire damage).

That idea is now right out.

I am considering a streamlined version along the lines of warlock/hellfire/ur priest/eldritch disciple.  Oh and for this PC the DM is allowing me to make the Pixie's favored class Warlock as it is an unseelie pixie...

So.  My question is, how do xp penatlies apply or not to dual progression classes.  Do prestige classes apply against the multiclassing limit?  For example does Hellfire warlock still count as warlock? 

i.e: if I take HF warlock 3 and Binder 1 and Warlock is my favored class, do I take the xp hit for having Binder and HF warlock out of balance?

2nd question/example:  If I forego Binder in favor of Shape Soulmeld so I only have HF Warlock, 3 Ur Priest 2, and the rest in Eldritch Disciple and Warlock, how does this affect the xp penalties?  How do dual progression prestige classes affect this? Do I start taking penalties at ED 1 or 5?  Assuming a build with warlock as favored, would I start taking xp penalties at Ur Priest 2, Eldritch Disciple 4?   How does one make the dual progression classes work properly when using multiclass xp rules?


Please help me make this work!

Note:  I hate this rule!

weenog

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 04:40:21 AM »
Prestige classes, racial HD, racial paragon classes, and your favored class are all ignored completely when checking for imbalanced multiclassing.  As long as all your classes which aren't those things are within 1 level of the highest-leveled one, you're fine.
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Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 04:51:42 AM »
Can you please give me some pager numbers to reference to my group, particularly for the prestige class exemption (when I asked them they said Prestige classes count...)

Maat_Mons

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 05:15:49 AM »
The fact that prestige classes are ignored when determining multiclass XP penalties was accidentally left out of the 3.5 DMG.  This was never addressed in errata, but it is addressed in the FAQ, and the SRD states the rule. 

Here's the quote from the FAQ:
Quote

Here's the quote from the SRD:
Quote
Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.  Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.

fuinjutsu

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 05:25:16 AM »
may i ask why they adhere to these inane rules?
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Thistledown Thurbertaut

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 06:00:33 AM »
Basically the DM wants game balance.  I'm the only optimizer in the group so if I do it then everybody would need to, includung the DM with his encounters.
He also disallows Tome of Battle.  He takes the view that ToB balances melee vs. caster to not include the fact that in a typical party the casters are buffing melee.

I like the customization that free multiclassing allows including dips but the DM is of the view that the xp penalties were specifically made to penalize people for dipping.

weenog

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 08:22:11 AM »
Riiight... and I supposed favored classes make you better at being that class, rather than encouraging dipping that class, or being it mainly and dipping something else.  :rollseyes
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Gavinfoxx

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 09:00:13 AM »
Ack, just play PHB only Wizard20 and tear his campaign apart...
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Nachofan99

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 10:52:12 AM »
Play a commoner 20 and see if your DM "balances" that.

Then tell him he needs to L2P.

Mixster

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 10:59:03 AM »
Play a spell to power erudite and laugh everytime he says that no prestige classes is "balanced".

Honestly, those things can rip apart entire armies.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Benly

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 11:14:34 AM »
Or instead of taking an antagonistic "Teach that uppity DM what's what!" stance, you could talk it out. I mean, that's occasionally an option. Point out the prestige class exemption in the FAQ and SRD. Also point out that applying XP penalties to PrCs encourages dipping, because you will be penalized for being (for example) Wizard 5/PrC 1 at level 6 but not for being Wizard 2/Fighter 2/Cleric 1/PrC 1. Likewise, you would be penalized for Wizard 5/PrC 10 at level 15, but not for being Wiz2/Ftr2/Clr1 and then two levels each of five different prestige classes.

If the DM wants "clean" builds without multiclassing all over the place, that's fine. Some DMs consider multiclassing and especially PrCs to be a bigger commitment for your character than others. However, applying XP penalties to prestige classes is counterproductive. If he's concerned about party balance, it might behoove you to think about party balance as well: Ur-Priest is an extremely potent class and if the rest of your party isn't optimizers he is entirely within his rights as a DM to be concerned about the effects of a dual-progressioned ur-priest on things.

Hallack

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2010, 11:33:18 AM »
On the XP penalties.  Really if you do not mind being 1 level behind the party the XP penalty is not that big a deal.

You'll get one level behind early on but after a few levels that increased XP you get for being lower level will pretty much counter your XP penalty.

So if you are wanting to play another juicier build and your party is not overly optimized that go for it.  Plus, may even show the DM that XP penalties are not going to do much.
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fuinjutsu

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2010, 04:30:15 PM »

He also disallows Tome of Battle.  He takes the view that ToB balances melee vs. caster to not include the fact that in a typical party the casters are buffing melee.


In other words, he thinks there's a "correct" way to play D&D.  *sigh*

Just play a straight warlock with a UMD boosting soulmeld and a willingness to burn XP on item crafting?

I mean dual advancement sounds like it will make you too powerful for your table.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2010, 04:35:21 PM »
The fact that prestige classes are ignored when determining multiclass XP penalties was accidentally left out of the 3.5 DMG.  This was never addressed in errata, but it is addressed in the FAQ, and the SRD states the rule.  

Here's the quote from the FAQ:
Quote

Here's the quote from the SRD:
Quote
Prestige classes offer a new form of multiclassing. Unlike the basic classes, characters must meet Requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. The rules for level advancement apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.  Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.
Point this out to them, but expect them to still insist on doing it there way. Then make a druid 20.

Posting here might also help (well... help you feel better, at least. :P )
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2010, 04:48:07 PM »
He also disallows Tome of Battle.  He takes the view that ToB balances melee vs. caster to not include the fact that in a typical party the casters are buffing melee.
...and yet by themselves, the melee classes would be slaughtered. So that doesn't make Tome of Battle overpowered, it just means that casters are really fucking overpowered.

awaken DM golem

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2010, 05:55:16 PM »
Uh-oh.
 :D

idontmuchcareforit

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2010, 06:21:33 PM »
I'm ok with banning martial adepts.
If and only if you also ban everything in Tiers 1-3.

Show your DM Fochlucan Lyrist from complete adventurer, and ask him how someone would get through all 10 levels of that class in 20 levels without xp penalties.  When he can't answer, ask him how one would even get into the class without xp penalties.  This should be proof that prestige classes do not count towards uneven advancement.
If you DM really, seriously insists on this strange, strange houserule...


I looked through my tried and true builds and figured this'd work(modified for your ridiculous situation):
Human(if he'll let you use the "first class is favored class" ability)
bard7/paladin2/human paragon1/sublime chord2/human paragon2/paragnostic apostle3/human paragon 3/sublime chord3-4

Look how stupid that looks.  Why can't you just play a powerful character without needing 2 hours of book work to work around his crazy rule?
I think that this would be the build to use.  It's very versatile.  It's powerful.  It's durable.  It's fairly easy to play.  But, and here's the kicker, it's stupid complicated to flavour.  That sounds bad, but honestly it's a good thing because it will be the ideal example of the problem that your DM is causing by enforcing his own vicious version of the xp penalty rule.

This isn't even as powerful as a wizard20, honestly.

if he won't let you use favored classes... idk... fighter2/barbarian2/half-orc paragon2/frenzied berzerker3
and then advance each base class i suppose.  If he won't allow completed classes (half orc-paragon) to be discounted, then... try this build

[spoiler]wizard20[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 06:31:03 PM by idontmuchcareforit »

Benly

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 06:37:00 PM »
I'm ok with banning martial adepts.
If and only if you also ban everything in Tiers 1-3.

The thing is, some people Just Don't Like the ToB even if they can't articulate why. If the DM doesn't like it, no amount of complaining or number-crunching will convince him it's a good idea.

Also, the tier system measures the upper range of a class's performance. If you measure classes by their performance in the hands of people who aren't trying all that hard (which, here's the important bit, seems to describe most of the OP's play group), things pan out very differently: ToB is a high performer even with very little effort in it, while a wizard or cleric who is being played as... well, as the rulebooks seem to imagine they'll be played rather than as optimizers play them will not utterly blow past the non-Tier 1 classes until level 15 or so.

idontmuchcareforit

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2010, 06:48:34 PM »
Quote
Also, the tier system measures the upper range of a class's performance. If you measure classes by their performance in the hands of people who aren't trying all that hard (which, here's the important bit, seems to describe most of the OP's play group), things pan out very differently: ToB is a high performer even with very little effort in it, while a wizard or cleric who is being played as... well, as the rulebooks seem to imagine they'll be played rather than as optimizers play them will not utterly blow past the non-Tier 1 classes until level 15 or so.

At level 5, core wizards almost keep pace with fighters in damage against 1 target, but far outpace them in damage vs. multiple targets (think fireball).  Since a fighter offers basically nothing but damage to the party, and the wizard can fly, scout, divine, research, open locked things, cause save-or-die's, use encounter ending spells, change his entire list of abilities every day and countless other things, this is a balance problem.
Yes, he lacks durability.  No, it doesn't make him easier to kill.  The school of abjuration is better than any Mithril Fullplate.
I rest my case.

Sorry for thread derail.

Benly

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Re: XP Penalties and Dual Progression
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 07:11:13 PM »

At level 5, core wizards almost keep pace with fighters in damage against 1 target, but far outpace them in damage vs. multiple targets (think fireball).  Since a fighter offers basically nothing but damage to the party, and the wizard can fly, scout, divine, research, open locked things, cause save-or-die's, use encounter ending spells, change his entire list of abilities every day and countless other things, this is a balance problem.
Yes, he lacks durability.  No, it doesn't make him easier to kill.  The school of abjuration is better than any Mithril Fullplate.
I rest my case.

Sorry for thread derail.

I am fully aware of what core wizards can do. Please read the actual post I made, which is not that wizards aren't broken in core but that wizards don't break the game without players who know how and are inclined to break it with them. With low-skill or low-effort players, wizards seem balanced. If you actually follow the advice the books give you on how to play a wizard, you will end up with a wizard who is unimaginably bad by charop standards. With low-skill or low-effort players, ToB classes suffer very little compared to use by medium-skill players; eliciting high performance from ToB classes is very easy and intuitive once you've read the book. Therefore, in the context of low-skill/low-effort players, ToB classes can seem more unbalanced than wizards.