Author Topic: The Fibonacci Fighter  (Read 3662 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2010, 08:47:53 PM »
Doesn't that power up high cha classes more than low cha ones?  So the fighter is still left in the lurch, hugging his 6 charisma to his chest.
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Prime32

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2010, 08:50:59 PM »
Doesn't that power up high cha classes more than low cha ones?  So the fighter is still left in the lurch, hugging his 6 charisma to his chest.
Base your cohort level on BAB.
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2010, 10:15:21 PM »
If this is Tier 4, then Tome of Battle didn't help balance things at all. Not that I disagree.

What ToB did was basically turn the tier 5 classes (fighter, paladin, monk) into tier 3 classes (warblade, crusader, swordsage).

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2010, 01:15:20 AM »
'your attack land, you do 2d4 +2x str + somesuch for a total of 50 points of damage'
'the wizard who was standing several yards infront of you waves his hand, you see three very large human looking males in front of you, make a roll to see if you recognize what titans look like.'
Tell me, if you could play an lv20 fighter with +55BAB and 55 bonus feats from any list (including stuff like Shape Soulmeld), would you?

Ok, rereading this thread pointed out an obvious problem: This Fighter "fix" is going to be a beginner's nightmare. Only experienced optimizers will know how to spend 55 feats without needing a reference, and even then it's going to be an invariable set of feats that everyone selects anyway.


While it does allow the Fighter to cover more than one base, it doesn't make the job any easier. IMO, if a Fighter fix makes things more complex than they all ready are, the fix loses it's appeal. The Warblade is recommended because it does this in addition to solving some issues.


Basically, I can't see recommending this to Midge. He can't either, which makes it funny.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Epimetheus

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2010, 01:47:03 AM »
I'm just tossing out ideas really... Paladin certainly gets better with Leadership.

[Agree with above poster about the Nightmare of 55 feats]

Anyway, Fibonacci Fighter can be pretty good still. But at killing stuff only, it seems. Somehow, Wizards of the Coast didn't print any bonus fighter feats that grant spellcasting, but they did print Heroics, the spell that grants a bonus fighter feat. Hm.

With all these 55 bonus feats, you'll finally take all the Combat Focus and Mage Slayer feats. Ubercharger + Spiked Chain lockdown helps too. With the Thicket of Blades stance and whatever Stunning Fist feats you can find, you should be good at breaking people down.

A fighter with items that boosted certain stats, could do quite well.
Need Dex, and Int, and Wis for Dodge/Combat Reflexes tree, Combat Expertise/Whirlwind attack tree, and Combat Focus/Stunning Fist tree.

I especially like the idea of Stunning through the Spiked Chain. Use Rapid Stunning and a few of your feats on Extra Stunning to make this work. During a whirlwind attack. If you fail to stun any of the opponents the first time through, Improved Whirlwind Attack lets you hit up to 3 (or more if the iterative attack limit is lifted) of the ones you've missed for another try.

Tack on Pharaoh's Fist and you're virtually guaranteed to lockdown a crowd. (You'll do better in a crowd than a single opponent, since the Pharaoh's Fist is Stunning Burst 1, forcing crowds to make multiple saves vs stunning.) If you can throw in a Bag of Rats, you'll surely stun everyone. Pain Touch will ensure that anybody who's stunned is also nauseated the next turn. Note that anyone who is stunned drops whatever they're holding and can't move, so that's plenty of time to smack the enemy down.

Tack on Defensive Sweep, Defensive Rebuke, Spiked Chain, and whatever other lockdown features you have, and nobody will every be able to escape.
Use your normal feats to get extra reach (via that Aberration stuff in Lords of Madness) for extra happiness. It makes your Whirlwind Attacks much better too. Permanency on your favorite enlarge person spell too?

Obviously, the Cleave chain, and Power Attack will help with the damage output for whenever you don't need to/can't stun someone.

And it might be cheap, but if you use Leadership to get an Inspire Courage optimized bard, you'll do far better than anyone other class in beating everyone up. [Power Attack 55, anyone?]

At any rate, I'm pretty sure this Fighter has to be Tier 3; it's definitely better than warblade, crusader, and swordsage. Can they ensure that they kill everyone they decide to attack? I don't really think so. At Power Attack 35 (bonus dmg 70 for every attack), the Fighter is essentially at the same BAB as warblade/crusader. Iron Heart's [Warblade's] 9th lvl Strike is +100 dmg, but only on a single attack. Diamond Mind's [Crusader's] is somewhat better, as it grants two full attacks, but that doesn't really compare against the total lockdown that this fighter has.

Utility-wise, all I see is the Shadow Blink for Swordsages (the swift action 50' teleportation), and the dual Stances for Warblades, but nothing else really stands out as awesome. Can someone tell me what's so good about the initiates? If they're Tier 3, I'd say that the Fibonacci Fighter is also Tier 3. I don't really see any spellcasting/game-breaking abilities in any of these classes.

Bozwevial

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2010, 02:08:48 AM »
Utility-wise, all I see is the Shadow Blink for Swordsages (the swift action 50' teleportation), and the dual Stances for Warblades, but nothing else really stands out as awesome. Can someone tell me what's so good about the initiates? If they're Tier 3, I'd say that the Fibonacci Fighter is also Tier 3. I don't really see any spellcasting/game-breaking abilities in any of these classes.
Well, they're not really meant to be game-breaking. That's Tiers 1 and, to a lesser extent, 2.

The problem with the Fibonacci Fighter is that the flying Wizard laughs at him.

Epimetheus

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2010, 02:22:12 AM »
Utility-wise, all I see is the Shadow Blink for Swordsages (the swift action 50' teleportation), and the dual Stances for Warblades, but nothing else really stands out as awesome. Can someone tell me what's so good about the initiates? If they're Tier 3, I'd say that the Fibonacci Fighter is also Tier 3. I don't really see any spellcasting/game-breaking abilities in any of these classes.
Well, they're not really meant to be game-breaking. That's Tiers 1 and, to a lesser extent, 2.

The problem with the Fibonacci Fighter is that the flying Wizard laughs at him.

It's quite a major weakness to be constantly grounded. It's just too limiting. (Better put that jump skill to good use, if you somehow managed to train it with your measly 2+INT skill points. If you can stun that flying wizard, he drops. And you can keep on hitting him till the ground, where there will be a nice squishy splat. But while PvP is pointless, the image just makes me smile for some reason.)

Things I look for in a good character.
Alternative movement modes.
Ways to detect everything (which is secondary to ways to not be detected by anything)
Some sort of teleportation and scrying
Ways to save vs everything
Ways to avoid getting hit by anything
Ways to avoid bad luck [Alter Fortune works well]
DR and spell resistance
A boost to any skill I'd want. [Divine Insight is the best for clerics, as are the various Wizard/Bard/Druid spells. Bardic Knack works too, I suppose]
Out of battle utility
Ways to kill everything
Ways to not let any of your prey get away
Good buffs that are either swift to startup or long duration
Good debuffs that don't give saves
Ways to counter AMF
Ways to counter sneak attack [which in my opinion can get pretty cheap at high levels]
Evasion and Mettle would be nice too...

If only the fighter got more of these things...

awaken DM golem

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Re: The Fibonacci Fighter
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2010, 05:27:13 PM »
I had some minor ideas around this theme,
but never bothered to flesh out or post.

Looking at this ...
what if you put a variable, pick whatever you want,
version of Power Attack or similar, into it?

Something like:
1st ... +0 feat + something tricky
2nd ... +1 feat ... looks like a Fighter
3rd ... +1 feat ... looks like Fighter, but -2 bab for one feat ahead and something tricky getting kinda good and weird
4th ... +2 something very tricky
5th ... +3 class "ought" to look like a Cleric at this point, but a very weird one.
6th ... +5 Fibonacci "Armor" ... don't know what this would be, so much as it's an idea, the Armor could scale like Fibo stuff
7th ... +8 split-able Power Attack
8th ... +13 split-able Power Attack looks like a better Alter Self at this point, without the shapechanging part, maybe a tinsy extra ability here
9th ... +21 as the last two, but some restrictions about how big the numbers get ... again perhaps a Fibo like trailing effect
10th ... +34 damage should look like "blaster" spells but (ex) an repeatable
11th ... etc ...

It could also have a Fibo "progression" of some sort.
Gaining certain abilities, and then Psi-powerpoint-ish distribution of it.
The total "points" goes above what powerpoints do,
so the abilities would have to be ~lesser but (ex) and always on or X_____ .