Author Topic: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...  (Read 6492 times)

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Amechra

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Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« on: August 28, 2010, 12:13:38 AM »
A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.[/spoiler]

The first part is from the SRD, and the second part is from the feat Versatile Spellcaster.

So let's see how we can abuse this:

Clerics can cast any spell from their spell list, as long as they have a cleric slot to cast it from.

This is fine, because otherwise you could get all Cleric spells by dipping one level, which would be crazy.

However, let's take a look at that Versatile Spellcaster; it allows you to sacrifice 2 spell slots to cast one spell you know one level higher.

It never says it has to come from the class whose spell slots you're burning.

So a Warmage 19/Cleric 1 (for example) with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell could cast every single spell of the cleric spell list, as long as your willing to sacrifice 2 spell slots for it.

Same could be done for a dip in Druid. In fact, since the spells you would be casting would still be divine spells, you could argue for the following build: Warmage 1/Cleric 1/ Druid 1/ Warmage 3/ Prestige Paladin 1 (advancing Warmage)/ Prestige Bard 1/ Prestige Ranger 1/ Warmage+11.
With the following feats (in order): 1st. Versatile Spellcaster, Track, Endurance. 3rd. Mounted Combat. 6th.Precise Shot (or TWF). 9th. SotAO. Whatever from this point on.

You get: 9th level Warmage, 9th level Cleric, 9th level Druid, 6th level Bard, 4th level Paladin, 4th level Ranger, and 8th level Wizard spells.

Looks nice, doesn't it?

If this doesn't work, please point out, as precisely as possible, why it does not.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2010, 12:39:31 AM »
It doesn't work because you can't cast Cleric spells of a level above 1st. Oh, and Clerics don't know their spells.


A Rainbow Servant could do it though.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2010, 01:03:54 AM »
But clerics can cast any spell off their list as long as they have a slot to prepare it in (usually would be cleric.)

And so it could be seen as Clerics knowing all spells on the Cleric spell list.

Using Versatile Spellcaster supplies you with a spell slot 1 level higher that you can cast any spell you know out off.

In other words, I don't care that, as a cleric, I would only be able to cast orisons and 1st level spells. In the classless world of Versatile Spellcaster, I use the fact that clerics can cast any spell off of their list, without having to raise a finger in the direction of actually doing something to learn it, as long as they have a slot to do it in. Versatile Spellcaster supplies that slot.

Alright, even if you wouldn't allow this (as a piece of my logic is probably faulty), I could grab Alacritous Cognition and Southern Magician to cast the Druid/Cleric spells of up to 8th level 1/day.

Oh, well.

(Oh, and I knew about Rainbow Servant. I was just annoyed at the fact you need 10 levels of it to do anything with your beautiful Cleric spells.)
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2010, 01:24:10 AM »
Same boat as a cleric 1/wizard 19 dropping a prepared fireball to cast a cure spell.
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Amechra

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2010, 01:27:51 AM »
TML, is that a yes or a no? Haven't been here long enough to know the verdict on that one.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2010, 01:29:02 AM »
If you allow one you have to allow the other.  It's an implicit assumption that spell abilities don't crossover unless explicitly stated.

Given that, the underpinnings of the system are pretty shoddy (you can't find a quote from the phb, mm or dmg that says sorcerers are sponantaneous casters, for example).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 01:31:27 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Amechra

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2010, 01:56:58 AM »
TML, that actually should be allowed by RAW, since it says you sacrifice any PREPARED spell slot, not cleric spell slot.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2010, 02:00:26 AM »
Again, it's an implicit assumption that class abilities only interact with their own spell slots.
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Amechra

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2010, 02:06:48 AM »
RAW =/= implicit, I've always thought.

Again, if I were DMing, I would go ahead and take the implicit view. For sanity purposes.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2010, 02:08:54 AM »
Well, again, it's implicit that sorcerers are spontaneous casters, but it's not actually stated anywhere in the PHB, DMG, or MM.
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raith0

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2010, 10:14:43 AM »
this doesnt actually work.  i will be looking for the ruling on it by sage and a few other places.  versitle spell caster gives you a spell slot no the ability to cast spells of that level.  witch is the reason it doesnt work.  it would work with a warmage, beguiler, or dread necromancer the same way if it did.  witch alows far to many tricks to just brake things open. 

if it gave you the ability to cast spells of that level you would be able to retain the spell slot and with a high enough cha you could cast a single 9th level spell at first level. 
so the reason it doesnt work is that you only get the spell slot and not the abillity to cast spells of that slots level unless you all ready can cast spells of that level

ron

KellKheraptis

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2010, 03:38:26 PM »
this doesnt actually work.  i will be looking for the ruling on it by sage and a few other places.  versitle spell caster gives you a spell slot no the ability to cast spells of that level.  witch is the reason it doesnt work.  it would work with a warmage, beguiler, or dread necromancer the same way if it did.  witch alows far to many tricks to just brake things open. 

if it gave you the ability to cast spells of that level you would be able to retain the spell slot and with a high enough cha you could cast a single 9th level spell at first level. 
so the reason it doesnt work is that you only get the spell slot and not the abillity to cast spells of that slots level unless you all ready can cast spells of that level

ron

Eh...yes and no.  A warmage/beguiler/dread necro can use that feat as written with no problems whatsoever and no questionable mechanics, indisputably.  However, you can't pyramid Versatile Spellcaster to my knowledge.
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Rymosrac

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2010, 03:47:43 PM »
And, strictly speaking, versatile spellcaster doesn't give you a slot.
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

raith0

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2010, 04:01:50 PM »
And, strictly speaking, versatile spellcaster doesn't give you a slot.

actually it does give you the slot for use for either using it for a spell you all ready know or for metamagic usage
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a

McPoyo

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2010, 05:04:32 PM »
It still doesn't pyramid.
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2010, 10:41:14 PM »
OK, a little clarification: I'm really just checking to see if you can use Versatile Spellcaster to sacrifice spellslots from one class to access spells off of another class' list.

And since Clerics, under a technicality, know every single spell on their list (except domain only), you could use this trick to cast cleric spells as if you had cleric spell slots of the relevant level.

And yes, definitely no pyramiding.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Senevri

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2010, 12:50:42 AM »
Well, Geomancer....

Please keep in mind, this spell does NOT give you a higher level slot. it gives you the ABILITY to cast a spell one level higher by spending two slots of lower level. It's a small, but important distinction I have tripped on on some build. I think.

Amechra

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2010, 12:55:48 AM »
Well, Geomancer what?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing


Amechra

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Re: Please tell me I'm wrong about this...
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2010, 03:03:09 AM »
But the thing is, the only reason you couldn't do that in the first place is that you have to sacrifice a prepared spell slot to use the spontaneous cure feature, which a sorc doesn't have without a feat.

There is nothing I can find that says that you couldn't spont. cast cure spells through wizard spell slots.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing