Author Topic: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!  (Read 14147 times)

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Irthos Levethix

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2008, 01:54:53 PM »
USeast too, but they can't play together.  Why aren't you on ladder, all the good rune words only spawn in ladder games anyway?  Thats just sub-optimal, man :P
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AfterCrescent

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2008, 01:56:40 PM »
Unless things changed, they reset ladder every so often, and I really, really, really don't like having my character randomly reset  :wall
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Irthos Levethix

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2008, 02:00:13 PM »
Ha, yeah thats true I suppose.  Still, I've been having a blast on there.  Found a 37%mf Gheeds off of Hell Andy last night, that made me pretty happy.  I suppose I won't be when ladder resets, but that shouldnt be for a while yet, right?  I mean, they just did it like June 20th.

Also, it seems like bnet's been doing more to keep hackers down, they'll give a realm down every so often and do a sweep of people using maphacks and the like.  The entire community seems to have improved a LOT since 1.09.
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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2008, 07:44:10 PM »
As tempting as it is for me to go and play D2 again, I really don't feel like going out and finding the Carbon install again.

I'll just have to wait for D3.  Hopefully it comes out soon.

Ieniemienie

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2008, 07:24:51 AM »
As tempting as it is for me to go and play D2 again, I really don't feel like going out and finding the Carbon install again.

I'll just have to wait for D3.  Hopefully it comes out soon.
Carbon Install?
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AfterCrescent

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2008, 10:45:14 AM »
Whoa. Crazy runs last night. My friend and I shot up 30~ levels. It was a good haul. :D
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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2008, 08:28:53 PM »
As tempting as it is for me to go and play D2 again, I really don't feel like going out and finding the Carbon install again.

I'll just have to wait for D3.  Hopefully it comes out soon.
Carbon Install?
Well, first off I bought the Windows version of the discs.  Secondly, right around OSX 10.3 there were changes in the OS that made discs obsolete anyway, so you needed a special installation program that would put in the needed changes to the program that would let it run on OSX 10.5, and that's called a Carbon installer.

Ieniemienie

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2008, 09:04:51 AM »
As tempting as it is for me to go and play D2 again, I really don't feel like going out and finding the Carbon install again.

I'll just have to wait for D3.  Hopefully it comes out soon.
Carbon Install?
Well, first off I bought the Windows version of the discs.  Secondly, right around OSX 10.3 there were changes in the OS that made discs obsolete anyway, so you needed a special installation program that would put in the needed changes to the program that would let it run on OSX 10.5, and that's called a Carbon installer.
ah... My windows XP has never failed me  :P
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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2008, 09:35:50 AM »
As tempting as it is for me to go and play D2 again, I really don't feel like going out and finding the Carbon install again.

I'll just have to wait for D3.  Hopefully it comes out soon.
Carbon Install?
Well, first off I bought the Windows version of the discs.  Secondly, right around OSX 10.3 there were changes in the OS that made discs obsolete anyway, so you needed a special installation program that would put in the needed changes to the program that would let it run on OSX 10.5, and that's called a Carbon installer.
ah... My windows XP has never failed me  :P
Diabo II will still come out for the Mac, though, just like all of Blizz's other games.

Nox_Noctis

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #89 on: July 26, 2008, 02:15:12 PM »
Unless things changed, they reset ladder every so often, and I really, really, really don't like having my character randomly reset  :wall

Actually, when ladder gets reset, ladder characters simply become non-ladder. They retain all items, levels, etc. (even ladder-only items). And it happens usually once every year or two.


I'm USWest. :(
« Last Edit: July 26, 2008, 02:17:04 PM by Nox_Noctis »
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AfterCrescent

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2008, 05:44:27 PM »
Actually, when ladder gets reset, ladder characters simply become non-ladder. They retain all items, levels, etc. (even ladder-only items). And it happens usually once every year or two.
It's basically a reset. My ladder character is no longer a valid ladder character, and now I have to make a new one :(

I'd rather just keep my non-ladders and not have to worry :D
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2008, 08:36:47 PM »
Fair enough. I just like the ladder-only items. :)
Also, I don't much see much of a point in non-ladder in all honesty ("much of a," not "any"), since TCP/IP games are also an option.

I'm actually trying to make a very non-viable build work right now (at least for PvM since it's a lost cause for PvP): the blade fury assassin. I made one when I was first playing the game on single player and made it to Hell, where I began to regret some of my dumb skill choices (more than 1 point in Blade Fury, really?) and soon deleted the character.

So I'm looking through various uniques and runewords to try to make an optimized blade fury assassin to aspire to piecing together.


EDIT: Does anyone have experience with using PlugY? I'm thinking of playing with it (because I prefer single player and tcp/ip to the realms, but Uber Tristram is too much fun to forgo), but I wanted to know if it's possible to disable the stat/skill resets (since I'm the kind of guy that thinks you should have to live with your stupid mistakes most of the time).

EDIT: Actually, that might not matter since it looks like PlugY isn't 1.12 compatible and I don't feel like patching back to 1.11b.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2008, 10:16:50 PM by Nox_Noctis »
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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #92 on: July 27, 2008, 11:01:18 PM »
I'd say use Razortail, but it looks like it doesn't work with Blade Fury (why not is beyond me).  However, +Mana per Kill is fairly mandatory.  If Crushing Blow works, use it.

Blade Sentinel is underrated, with additional points increasing the duration significantly, and Blade Shield is a must, although adding points to Blade Shield beyond 1 may or may not be a good idea.

This I'm less sure of, but try using Tiger Strike to power up weapon damage and then use Blade Fury instead of an attack or finisher.  It may increase the damage you do.  Also worth checking out is whether you can use Viper Strike with it, but I don't think Lifesteal/Manasteal work with Blade Fury.

High-levels of Claw Mastery should put a high-damage claw on-par with a two-handed weapon.  High levels of Burst of Speed are less useful because it doesn't influence Blade Mastery, but Fade is always useful.  Cloak of Shadows is plain mean in this style of build because of the huge -% Defense monsters get while blinded as well as the fact that they won't see you attacking them from a distance.

Nox_Noctis

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #93 on: July 28, 2008, 12:50:22 AM »
Actually, two-handed weapons suck for blade fury. The damage from them is halved (from 3/4 to 3/8). I was actually thinking of trying that same thing with Tiger Strike as well, but I don't think it's going to work as charge techniques specify a finishing move or attack must be used, and blade fury is neither (and it doesn't activate abilities that activate on attacking, though it does activate those based on striking).

Life leech and mana leech both work (and I used them on my old blade fury assassin, which helped it a lot against Baal's mana burn).

Yeah, I've heard Cloak of Shadows (which I always underestimated when I played that old assassin - back in 1.07 or so) is pretty useful, even causing gloams and the like to cease their lightning attacks (though I'll admit good resistance pretty much does them in anyway).

I'll look into Blade Sentinel, but I could have sworn it's damage was pretty low (isn't it something like 3/8 normally [that is, without a two-handed weapon]?).

And Claw Mastery may or may not actually be that useful, depending on what type of a weapon I go for. Crushing Blow and attack rating are the main necessities normally, but Ignore Target Defense works in PvM, so attack rating is pretty worthless in all honesty (since it's not viable in PvP even with the ability to hit things since it locks you in place, doesn't have homing, etc.). Anyway, the point in this is that Last Wish looks pretty useful, with Ignore Target Defense, Prevent Monster Heal, Hits Blinds Target, and 60-70% Crushing Blow all in one nice package (with other things such as damage, etc.). But it has to be used in a 6 socket sword, hammer, or axe, meaning a phase blade or something like that is probably the candidate (for low requirements). While claws can offer nice bonuses to skills, Blade Fury barely gets any bonuses to damage from itself (giving a worthless +8 damage even at higher skill points) and Venom, while useful, shouldn't be relied upon because of massive resistances and immunities in Hell (and the fact that you get only 3/4 of its damage on Blade Fury).

Anyway, I have to look into ways to maximize my resistances and some other things, but I'm leaning toward Last Wish so far, and considering a Phoenix Shield for the extra damage, but I'm not sold on that either since the damage is likely not worth my shield slot.

Razortail is the gray belt, right?

EDIT: I looked up Razortail. I'm not sure what mods from that, even if the Piercing Attack worked (which, you're right, it doesn't, because Blade Fury isn't an attack) I would even want. Piercing Attack would be nice, but there are better uses of the belt slot in improving survivability (such as Verdungo's Hearty Cord).

EDIT2: So, it turns out that the property, Ignores Target's Defense, doesn't work on a number of enemy types in PvM including uniques, super uniques, and act bosses, making it pretty much crap in that I would still need to inflate my attack rating. So I think I might be ditching this build altogether. I won't say it's not possible to beat Hell difficulty with it, but it's not worth the trouble and amount of gear twinking it would require.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 03:03:11 AM by Nox_Noctis »
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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2008, 06:30:43 AM »
I see it the other way around, this build is about the least item-intensive build I can think of.

Against most enemies, Claw Mastery and Cloak of Shadows should keep you from missing (Cloak of Shadows is about -3% Defense/slvl, so it's almost as good as ITD at high levels, and fully-geared it should hit -100%).  So obviously the issue is the stuff that you can't hit with Cloak of Shadows.  Against them you still have Blade Sentinel, which can hit them multiple times as it goes back and fourth on it's path, and Blade Barrier (Granted dealing low damage, but if it can trigger Crushing Blow then still useful).

As for items, I don't see the need for anything super-specialized, just a big-damage claw and a shield with a high block%.  Ideally a Shadow Killer with a socket added for a Ber rune, but any claw with high damage can swing it.  If you want Crushing Blow early on then you have the Strength runeword and the Blood Gloves HC recipe, good for 25-30% Crushing Blow.  Frankly, thats all I think you ever need considering how fast you'll be attacking with those blades.  Fade goes a long way covering resists, Claw Mastery and Cloak of Shadow cover AR and Defense for the most part, so all thats left is gear that lets you equip the best stuff for the job.

Nox_Noctis

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #95 on: July 28, 2008, 05:11:08 PM »
EDIT (Sort Of; See Below): This is something of a thought progression, and the statements made in the beginning are not final stances, so do not be offended if I disagree initially. I did some "research," which I've included in the edit at the bottom. At the same time, prepare for a lot of close scrutiny and doubt.

Well, a level 20 Cloak of Shadows has -72%. Normally this would be more than enough, but this is halved against champions/bosses (and presumably uniques and super uniques if it is halved against champions). So at level 20, this is -36%. That's certainly not bad. But then you also have to consider the levels of act end bosses, especially Baal, since their level is used in the to-hit equation, thus reducing your chance of hitting them if you're lower level (which is likely unless you're going back to a mode you have already beaten).

Anyway, so then you can compare Claw Mastery to some of the bonuses to attack rating from weapons. Claw Mastery, in my honest opinion, is not worth the damage bonus. Even at level 20 it only adds 111%. It's better to simply get a weapon with a powerful modifier. So then we inspect the attack rating: 220% at level 20. It gets 30% at level 1 and 10% each level thereafter. Unfortunately for Claw Mastery, there are weapons with 300% attack rating bonuses (effectively quadrupling your attack rating). The cost is that they're two-handed, thus halving your damage. Of course, they quadruple your chance of hitting at the expense of only your weapon and claw/shield slot, meaning you're still doing more damage because you're hitting much more often.

In this, I could see a claw-based build being viable, but I think that a non-claw build would be better in the end (so while the claw build might be the "budget" version, the optimal, "rich" build probably shouldn't use a claw).

Also, where you only have 110 skill points total (if you get to level 99, which most people do not), maximizing the benefits of Claw Mastery will cost you twenty of those, nineteen more than other Blade Fury builds. Of course, if you do max out Claw Mastery, you'll get a little bit more attack rating from skill bonuses, making it comparable in attack rating with a 300% AR runeword. I just personally don't see how that's worth 19 skill points though.

EDIT (Not Really, But After Looking Up Some Information): Apparently enemy defense scores simply... suck. Even Uber Baal has only 3150. I'm still not sure how this interacts with the number of players in the game or how his level influences the hit ratio. Anyway, the point in this is that, while I still think it's not worth putting a bunch of points into Claw Mastery, both versions would be viable in PvM (as far as the ability to hit enemies goes). As a matter of fact, simply with level 20 Cloak of Shadows, Uber Baal suddenly has a pathetic 2016 defense. This actually makes dual claws rather tempting for the claw block (since it can block some spells) since it appears a claw character can work. Even with a single point of Claw Mastery, you can easily get that to level 20 or so (9 grand charms, 3 from the hellfire torch, 1 from annihilus, 2 from bul-kathos' wedding band, 2 from mara's kaleidoscope, etc.). So you have 200% AR bonus (each point of dexterity adds 12 AR or so), and some bonuses from those very same pieces of equipment to dexterity (60 AR from Mara's, 120-240 from the Torch and Anni, etc.).

So you have a "free" (since these pieces of equipment are pretty much necessary for the life leech, resistances, etc.) 300-540 attack rating just from the named items.

So, yes, claws might be the path to pursue, it seems. I think Chaos and Bartuc's might be a good set-up, with Chaos in the hand for Blade Fury's damage, and with Bartuc's in the other. This gives you a good amount of open wounds, magic damage (to make up for the pretty crappy damage claws deal), life leech, skills, and a 20% bonus to attack rating.

So, attack rating without other factors: 648-936. This doesn't even account for the base dexterity and attack rating, and it uses an approximation on Claw Mastery at 200% since the rest of the equipment isn't set in stone yet.

EDIT 2 (Not Really Yet Again): Without putting a lot of points into dexterity (which doesn't help the block ratio with claws), the attack rating still sucks... Even with 300% AR from a weapon it would probably suck quite a bit. There are still factors that could be added in, but it would require quite a bit more to make this viable. And it still needs Crushing Blow as well (vital to this, even though ranged weapons suffer a penalty on crushing blow - 1/16 of the target's health against Champions/Uniques/Bosses).

At the same time, all the bonuses to skills would help Cloak of Shadows quite a bit, so I'm going to take a quick look at that: Okay, so this caps out at level 28 as far as reducing an enemy's defense goes. It has -95% at that point (-47.5% against Champions/Uniques/Bosses). So, looking again at Uber Baal, his defense becomes 1653.75. It's still fairly far away from the attack rating this character has without additional points of dexterity (which, again, only boost damage and defense a little).

EDIT 3 (Another Fake Edit): Using fairly standard end-game gear, Claw Mastery, with 1 hard point in it, returns 250% Attack Rating. So this boosts our figures a little bit, but still not enough to make it very effective without more hard points of dexterity. Attack rating becomes: 756-1092. Now, admittedly, if you added on 190% more attack rating (19 more hard points in Claw Mastery), I don't doubt that it would become viable. The problem with this, then, is that Cloak of Shadows lasts for 35 seconds. Then you have to re-cast it. And in the meantime, your Blade Fury is single-target (at a time, at least, since I do understand that once an enemy is downed, any still-flying blades will hit whatever was behind him). This means crowd control is weak to nonexistent. And, while this isn't so much of an issue against bosses, Baal does have a clone and tentacles, and while you shoot down those tentacles, he's going to keep on attacking.

Of course, I've been using Uber Baal's defense as a target number, but I don't ever expect this character to be able to kill the Ubers. It simply wouldn't happen. Its complete lack of effective crowd control, and the short duration of Cloak of Shadows mean it would die as fast as a Tal Rasha-wearing Sorceress in her low 70s using fire spells.

Conclusion: This build is not as simple as it seems, even with Claw Mastery and a ton of items to boost Claw Mastery (though the grand charms and the like are optimal anyway because they boost Venom and Cloak of Shadows and Fade anyway). As such, it isn't quite the budget character that it seems to be at first (at least as far as conquering Hell mode goes; it's perfectly viable in the first two modes, and even likely the first two acts of Hell solo).


REAL EDIT: Oh, even at level 41, Cloak of Shadows has a 48 second duration (compared to the 600 second/10 minute duration of Fade, which is amazing...).

REAL EDIT 2: I just ran it all through a damage calculator, and if you could manage to make it hit reliably, it's capable of dealing a little over 2,000 damage per hit (counting Venom, the magic damage of Chaos, etc.) but that uses an ethereal War Fist, and I'm not sure if ethereal is compatible with claw blocking. If not, it loses about 500 damage. And that's not counting the fact that most bosses will resist most of the poison damage. So, in short, its damage isn't horrible, but it's not amazing (and 19 more hard points of Claw Mastery honestly only adds about 100-200 damage). This is using Fortitude and a Phoenix Shield, too, which means that skill points decrease, so it's actually an overestimation. In short: damage is worthless (really, entirely worthless). This character only reliably deals 1500 damage (since I do believe that claw blocking ruins durability), and that can be reduced to about 1000-1300 once you account for 4 less points in Venom and Claw Mastery). Also, this severely reduces attack rating (60% less without Bartuc's and those 4 points of Claw Mastery). So, basically, decent damage (not even good or great damage) comes at the expense of accuracy.

So, short version: you have to focus on crushing blow. It's the only way to make this viable. And you have to make sure you have a good amount of attack rating, or even more -X% target's defense (aside from Cloak of Shadows, so you can exceed the 47.5% it offers).
« Last Edit: July 28, 2008, 05:53:52 PM by Nox_Noctis »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2008, 11:32:28 AM »
From reading that, it's hard to tell but I think you don't understand how the attack rating mechanics work.

If your attack rating is equal to their defense, and your level is equal to theirs, you have a 50% chance of hitting.

Every doubling of your attack rating halves your chance to miss.

Every doubling if their defense rating halves your chance to hit.

So 3k AR vs 3k defense = 50%.
6k AR vs 3k defense = 75%.
1.5k AR vs 3k defense = 25%.

Level I believe follows a formula like your level/their level as a global modifier. If you're 80, and they're 100, only 80% of your attack rating applies. If you're 80 and they're 64, 125% of your attack rating applies. You get the idea.

So to have 87.5% chances to hit 3k defense, you need 12k ar. Or, you could lower their defense by 50% and only need 6k ar to do the same thing. It makes it a lot easier. Especially when you consider the mobs can block, and almost every attack except Smite is blockable. You pretty much have to have a 90-95% hit rate to connect a respectable percentage of the time. 93.75% requires you to have their defense worth of AR 8 times over of course.

Enemy defense scores suck, because chances are your AR sucks due to your gear sucking, and the mechanics of your accuracy are also an important factor in that. Unless they changed things since 1.10 so that you are not practically forced to run multiple bots just to get the other 90% of equipment any time this year so that you can get those uber runewords, elite uniques, etc via something close to normal playing/farming.
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Nox_Noctis

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2008, 05:41:17 PM »
From reading that, it's hard to tell but I think you don't understand how the attack rating mechanics work.

I'm not sure how you gathered that since what I said basically boiled down to the fact that it lacks the necessary attack rating to hit consistently, which is true... Just because the build is close to being "viable" doesn't mean all of its attacks will hit. Blade fury's only real use is its fixed speed from the first skill point. When you're able to spam blades, even half of your attacks hitting can be "viable." It's certainly not preferable, though. And that's basically what I said. I ended up "concluding" that without very expensive gear, the build is, for the most part, worthless because it cannot hit consistently (or reliably, I think I used the word reliably). And, once you manage to accomplish reliability, I pointed out that damage (as shown on the Lying Character Screen) is worthless compared to Crushing Blow.

As for actually getting the gear, most people on ladder/battlenet in general trade to get their equipment. This does usually involve either making a magic finding character (like a Hammerdin) and doing a lot of boss runs to get equipment worth trading, doing virtually the same thing for keys and organs, except without magic find, or doing rushes for forge runes. It's not as if you're going to get all of your gear overnight unless you're extremely lucky and make a few runs with items worth multiple high runes each, but it's not impossible. Accomplishing it on single player is much more difficult, admittedly.
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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2008, 08:08:53 PM »
Well, my recommended weapon (Shadow Killer) adds an extra -25% defense, meaning to hit 93.5% hit chance against uber Bhaal we need to hit 11340 AR, give or take a little depending on what level you are when fighting him.  Granted it's been a while, but that doesn't seem too terribly difficult IMO.

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Re: DIABLO III IS COMING!!!
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2008, 07:57:17 PM »
I reinstalled it a few days ago as well.  Optimator on USWest.