Author Topic: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars  (Read 3144 times)

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MalcolmSprye

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Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« on: August 23, 2010, 04:50:03 AM »
Hi all,
This is my first time posting, so bear with me.  I've been having a little trouble with my character in a Savage Tide campaign, and a friend pointed me at these boards. 
First, the background:  The campaign I'm in is small (4 players plus the GM), and none of us has chosen overpowered concepts (I think. I freely admit my knowledge is limited.) That being said, I'm feeling somewhat ineffective in some situations, and I'd like help optimizing within the constraints of my core concepts.
Second, the concept:  Derryn Dirkson was a mercenary.  During that background career, he became, essentially, a warrior Skald.  He's a storyteller bard.  He also apprenticed under the company armorer, and learned weapon smithing.  After a few years, and several grim experiences, he felt he could no longer stomach working for a mercenary company.  He left and took passage to Sassarine, where the campaign began.  Basically, at the start of the campaign, he was somewhere between true neutral and chaotic good, and his alignment has shifted over 10 levels to be solidly chaotic good.  He continues to feel deep involvement with crafting both stories and more tangible things.  This was brought to a head when he was touched accidentally by a force of pure goodness, and exposed to a glimpse of true holy creation (Words of Creation).  Now, while still retaining some of the pragmatic style of a mercenary, he has become solidly a force for good.

The details:
My feats to date:Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Elusive Target, Words of creation.
I've replaced Fascinate with Hymn of Healing, and competence with Hymn of Fortification.
My current Stats: 12 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 16 INT, 16 CHA, 10 WIS.
Current gear: +4 Mithral BP, +1 Buckler, +1 spiked gauntlet of Wounding, Boots of striding and Springing, Ring of mind shield, ring of swim, +2 cha cloak, +1 ac ioun stone, +1 natural armor neck.
Skills of note: Bluff, Craft(weapon), Craft(Armor), Diplomacy (with all 3 synergies), Move Silently, Perform(Oratory),Sense Motive, Tumble, Various Knowledges, Some Languages.  I also have the Collector of Stories skill trick, as well as a few points scattered randomly among Jump, swim, Gather info, disguise, hide.

Spells:
1st:
Inspirational Boost
Cure Light
Accelerated movement
Grease
2nd:
Glitterdust
Blind/Deaf
Harmonize
Unseen Crafter
3rd:
Glibness
Slow
Refreshment ( to help with Words of Creation damage)

Here's where I feel weak most often: Spells.  I didn't just want to be a buff monkey... but my offensive spells are feeling more and more like skipping a turn.  Glitterdust is at least still useful against hiding/invisible stuff... but I can't remember the last time a non chump failed one of my spell saves.

My GM will let us use downtime to retrain spells and skills.. so suggestions are welcome.  I'd also welcome suggestions for the future.  I'm tentatively thinking of Leadership for lvl 12 and craft magic arms and armor for 15.. but toss out stuff you think might be helpful.  Spells, feats, skills.  Next level is my first level of Troubador, so I'd like to have a plan.

Thanks ahead of time!

idontmuchcareforit

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 10:17:47 AM »
I really really like "Shock and Awe" from spell compendium for a 1st level.
Invisibility and alter self are pretty good second level spells.
phantom battle is meh, maybe a good choice for a bard as they get it a level early.

ImmortalSoul

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 10:19:04 AM »
Well, there's several ways to make a bard more useful to the party. To be honest, I'm not sure whether bard is the way to go if you don't "just want to be a buff monkey" but prefer "offensive spells", but as you say your group is not all too heavily optimized, that shouldn't be much of a problem. Mind to tell us your what the other PCs are so we have an idea on what could be useful?

Just some quick thoughts now: Have you consider being a Sublime Chord? You'd have to rearrange your skill selection quite a bit, but that would indeed help you with your spells. Moreover, with a mere 16 in CHA you shouldn't be all too surprised that the saves aren't that difficult. Maybe improve to a cloak of cha +4 or something?

Second thought: I'd say your selection of feats is rather meh. They don't help you with your offensive power in combat - power that a bard can achieve if he decides to, considering snowflake wardance and IC; they don't much help you with being a caster, either.

Third thought, considering leadership: Well, it's possibly the strongest feat out there. It could allow you to get a companion to do the crafting for your party, get some random guy to do the buffing for you or, as someone in another thread suggested, just for "Maids. Hundreds of them."  :eh. You'll want to be very careful with what you try to do with this feat, because it can potentially smash the campaign.

Fourth thought: Don't try to do the crafting yourself, rather use leadership for it, if you may. There's a guide to crafting somewhere on these boards listing all the useful ways to dumb the price to pay to what, 4,5% or something?

Oh, and while we're at it: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook
Clearly had to be mentioned.

Edit: I forgot, go for UMD while you're at it. Max'd out.

Edit#2: Oh well, just reread the fluff of the Sublime Chord; sadly, it seems to be a stretch for what your character is. It would still serve your purpose well, so maybe talk to your DM about it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 10:31:18 AM by ImmortalSoul »

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 12:52:06 PM »

I am not married to the idea of outright offensive spells.  I just wanted to( if possible), avoid spells that I'll HAVE to cast on my party every single combat ( i.e. haste).  I was hoping for suggestions of spells with high usefulness, that don't turn me into a robot.
I'm fully aware I need to raise my Charisma.  Sadly, the +2 cloak is all I have, and the GP limit of the area we're in is a fraction of what a +4 cloak would cost.  So, suggestions of useful spells (overtly offensive or not) that don't require saves would be nice.
As for the rest of the party (sorry, I have no idea of sourcebooks for most of these):
Barbarian/Champion of Gwynharwyf
Monk heading toward something Psionic.  He replaced flurry of blows with Decisive strike.
Wizard/Sea Hag (Focus on Water themed spells. Summons some stuff... casts evard's inappropriate tentacles... drops a fireball or two, nothing ridiculous)
Both the wizard and barbarian have a flaw.  Can't remember the name, but its basically poor impulse control.  They have to make will saves at the GM's whim, or do something impulsive.  The save goes up each time them pass.  My character is Shaky(-2 to range attacks).  Dunno if the monk is flawed... he doesn't trust us chaotic maniacs :D .
Sadly, while he is well coordinated, my bard is a Story Teller, not a dancer, so snowflake wardance is inaccessable.  What does IC stand for?
As for crafting, that is sort of part of the core concept of the character, so I've gotta keep it.  I will look for craft guides to see if I can use helpers.

As for UMD, is it useful within the context of a campaign where we're not buying most of our items?  I've never really used the skill, so I kinda ignored it and put my points elsewhere.

Thanks for the help.
Well, there's several ways to make a bard more useful to the party. To be honest, I'm not sure whether bard is the way to go if you don't "just want to be a buff monkey" but prefer "offensive spells", but as you say your group is not all too heavily optimized, that shouldn't be much of a problem. Mind to tell us your what the other PCs are so we have an idea on what could be useful?

Just some quick thoughts now: Have you consider being a Sublime Chord? You'd have to rearrange your skill selection quite a bit, but that would indeed help you with your spells. Moreover, with a mere 16 in CHA you shouldn't be all too surprised that the saves aren't that difficult. Maybe improve to a cloak of cha +4 or something?

Second thought: I'd say your selection of feats is rather meh. They don't help you with your offensive power in combat - power that a bard can achieve if he decides to, considering snowflake wardance and IC; they don't much help you with being a caster, either.

Third thought, considering leadership: Well, it's possibly the strongest feat out there. It could allow you to get a companion to do the crafting for your party, get some random guy to do the buffing for you or, as someone in another thread suggested, just for "Maids. Hundreds of them."  :eh. You'll want to be very careful with what you try to do with this feat, because it can potentially smash the campaign.

Fourth thought: Don't try to do the crafting yourself, rather use leadership for it, if you may. There's a guide to crafting somewhere on these boards listing all the useful ways to dumb the price to pay to what, 4,5% or something?

Oh, and while we're at it: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook
Clearly had to be mentioned.

Edit: I forgot, go for UMD while you're at it. Max'd out.

Edit#2: Oh well, just reread the fluff of the Sublime Chord; sadly, it seems to be a stretch for what your character is. It would still serve your purpose well, so maybe talk to your DM about it.

McPoyo

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 04:50:36 PM »
All that said: Haste is an amazing spell that helps the entire party. No matter what else I did, I'd still expect to cast it once in a while for big fights and the like. Everyone getting an extra attack is always a good deal.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

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ImmortalSoul

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 07:23:06 PM »
Are you set on going Troubadour of Stars?

IC = Inspire Courage

And yes, I'd say UMD is worth it. Though I'd advice getting at least some stuff to use UMD on, you can't count on finding it. Just get some long duration buff spells to emprove your combat power by over 9000. Eternal wands might be worth considering.

I admit that if you really want to go Troubadour of Stars, I'm sort of at a loss here. I can't see how a 5/10 progression class will solve your issues. It won't help you on your road to dominating the worldwide crafting market, it won't make your spells so much better and it takes quite a few levels to come to it's own.

As for spell selections:
As mentioned, Alter self is really really good. Invisibility is nice, too, as is Entice Gift, even though it allows a save. At least it targets will.

How about obtaining a familiar to help you out of combat? Your role in combat, I'm afraid, will largely be buffing. But the wizard is a blaster, so there is a lot of space for the buffer-type.

And maybe Leadership is really the way to go. Get an Artificer if your DM is okay with that and roleplay it so that he's your crafting apprentice maybe? (Because in fact he'll be doing most of the work by making magical what you craft, really). This would help your group a lot as you seem to be short on money.

Edit: Totally forgot about knowledge devotion. How about that? :)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 07:54:36 PM by ImmortalSoul »

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 09:36:39 PM »
Combat power....Uh oh.  I think I may have blundered heavily. I know nothing about 4th ed, and assumed that troubadour of stars didn't exist in that edition.

(Oh god please don't hit me)..... So how much of this advice is applicable to 3.5?  (Hides under the bed).


And yes, I'd say UMD is worth it. Though I'd advice getting at least some stuff to use UMD on, you can't count on finding it. Just get some long duration buff spells to emprove your combat power by over 9000. Eternal wands might be worth considering.

Edit: Totally forgot about knowledge devotion. How about that? :)
Knowledge devotion looks pretty buff, especially with collector of stories.

BruceLeeroy

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 11:50:08 PM »
All of that is 3.5. Combat power isn't a stat, just descriptive text. Eternal Wands are from the MiC, i think.

ImmortalSoul

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 09:19:49 AM »
What BruceLeeroy said. Don't worry, I'm just no native speaker and used that term in lack of a better one. :)

Quote
Knowledge devotion looks pretty buff, especially with collector of stories.

Just check with your DM first if it stacks. Though there is little reason it shouldn't.

Edit: Is there a stat called "combat power" in 4e?  :twitch
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 09:31:16 AM by ImmortalSoul »

Beltendu

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 07:13:24 PM »
I suspect the misunderstanding was that in 4e you get combat powers, so he thought you were talking about those instead of meaning "improve your combat ABILITY by over 9000" ... :)

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 07:59:14 PM »
I suspect the misunderstanding was that in 4e you get combat powers, so he thought you were talking about those instead of meaning "improve your combat ABILITY by over 9000" ... :)
Actually... I know so little about 4e, that when he said it, I assumed it was some stat they had introduced.

Someone asked if I definitely wanted to go Troubadour of Stars.  I admit that the idea heavily appeals to me.  Here's what I assesed as the tradeoffs:
Negative:
Sacrifice 5 caster levels(so no 6th level spells)

In exchange:
Holy cacaphony(Evil creatures make DC 15, or 20 with WoC +Spell level concentration check to cast a spell). Not great.. but not without use.
Starmantle( lvl  6 Spell) 1/day
Eladrin Form( lvl 7 Spell) 1/ Day
Holy Word(lvl 7 Spell) up to Bardic Music times per day NO SAVE.
All Sanctified spells count as spells known (So that's an extra 15 spells known!)
DR 10/unholy
NOTE: all these spell like abilities and songs will use my character level as CLevel

So, I dunno. I kinda thought it was worth sacrificing 4 6th level spells for all that.   Thoughts?

ImmortalSoul

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 10:27:01 AM »
It's not all bad of course, probably better than bard 20. But there's far more versatility in Sublime Chord as it gets you up to 9th level spells.

I mean, fact is spells really matter. The higher you get you'll catch up to a sorcerer in terms of spell levels, though you'll know fewer spells, which is kinda crucial. You get access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list and that's clearly one of the strongest things to have, far stronger than anything Troubadour of Stars gets. And you still have your bardic music and your skills.
The most important thing would be to choose your spells known wisely. There are at least two very good sorcerer handbooks out there and both should give you a good idea on what to look for. Also for spell choices, some of these are very solid.

Admittedly, as I said, you'll maybe want to talk to your DM about changing some of the fluff of the class. While you're at it, ask if you may apply knowstones to your SC-casting. Also, you'll probably want to get metamagic wands (extend, at least - synergizes well with Song of Arcane Power).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 10:37:28 AM by ImmortalSoul »

MalcolmSprye

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 05:46:31 PM »
After talking with my gm over the course of a week, we came to a couple of possibilities that still leave room for my character concept.

Indeed, I will be going the sublime chord route.  I'll probably be doing a rebuild of 2 levels of bard into either Warblade or an adaptation of Swordsage with access to ONLY white raven school, to gain some melee maneuvers and Song of the white raven.  Then 10 levels of SC.

Thanks for the input about the various pros and cons.

Quick question:  Are spontaneous casters allowed to learn a LOWER level spell for spells known?  I'm not done looking through spell lists by any means, but I have heard Shivering Touch mentioned a number of times, and when I looked it up, I saw it was awesome: No save, huge effect, and melee touch attack, which is great, since my melee is/will be pretty good.  Sublime chord gives you spells starting at 4th level... so am I(if I decide I want shivering touch), allowed to use a 4th level spell known to learn a 3rd level spell?  I searched the SRD, and google, and the best I could find was a firm "maybe".

Cheers

Catty Nebulart

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 06:14:45 PM »
Quick question:  Are spontaneous casters allowed to learn a LOWER level spell for spells known?

Yes. Swordsage with only White raven?  :bigeye for your character with leadership that would be fantastic.
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MalcolmSprye

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 06:27:15 PM »
Quick question:  Are spontaneous casters allowed to learn a LOWER level spell for spells known?

Yes. Swordsage with only White raven?  :bigeye for your character with leadership that would be fantastic.

Erm... maybe I'm missing something.  What in white raven is amazing with leadership?  The party boosting stances?  I mean.. leadership with WoC+IC is already pretty buff

Catty Nebulart

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Re: Help with Bard/Troubadour of Stars
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2010, 08:14:08 PM »
Swordsage gets tons of manuvers, and most of the white raven ones are party boosting, and with leadership you'll have a huge army. although you'll probbaly not qualify for the 9'th level manuver which is the only one I recall where the bonus grows with the number of allies involved (+2 cumilative to hit to everyone for each ally involved. suddenly a few dozen 1'st level commoners armed with sharpened sticks can take down an epic level dragon (assuming it's on the ground, etc).) :clap

Of course said dragon can probably kill all the commoners with a single breath weapon attack so it's not that usefull, but still against the right type of target it's devastating.

Read the army handbook for some ideas.

Also White Raven tends to boost more than IC, but for a shorter period (one attack or round), but the combination can be devastating. Then again you don't want to be just the party buffer...

But why pick swordsage over warblade or crusader? both of them would give you +1 bab and more hp, their less manuvers known hurts a bit but they have better recharge mechanisms, and you are not going to take multiple levels of swordsage because your wisdom is terible, where as warblade gets bonuses from int, and crusader gets bonuses from cha which are your good mental stats.
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