Author Topic: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?  (Read 9674 times)

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Necrosnoop110

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[3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« on: August 22, 2010, 12:10:39 AM »
Ok, for the flavor of my homebrewed campaign and for mine and my players tastes the following house rules are very desired and appear to be well suited. Before I implement them (I'm the DM) I was wondering if you fine folks could look them over and tell me what you think. Any major issues I might not be thinking of? Our table allows Core Books + Complete Books + Races of Books with case by case DM approval for all other WotC sources. Munchkins and grossly overpowered characters are typically not an issue for our group.  

1) Sorcerer- Wizards are out so we'd like to bump up the Sorcerer's spell acquisition rate to match that of the wizard. Such that a 5th character level Sorcerer can access 3rd level spells and doesn't have to wait until 6th character level. (If any one has a chart made up for a faster progressing Sorcerer I'd love to see it.)

2) Rogues - Rogues can sneak attack anything. Constructs, Undead, and special creatures & magic items so deemed by the DM can reduce the number of sneak dice, sort of like a special damage reduction for sneak attack. A standard zombie may get a (-1 sneak dice protection) an uber-Vampire might get say (-5 sneak attack dice protection) etc. I'm aware of fortification rules but don't like the "all or nothing" aspect of the mechanic. The flavor behind this is that even in creatures without vital organs or soft-spots a structural weak-point can be used instead. For example, in the case of the undead a kidney shot would be ineffectual because a zombie, for instance, has non-essential viscera but instead a zombie could be "sneak attacked" by a structural blow to the knee joint.    

2.5) Criticals - No confirmation roll for criticals are necessary, you roll a 20 (or in your critical range) you get a critical. However, certain creature types have natural fortification against critical rolls (e.g Plants get 60%, Constructs 30%, and Undead 15% to resist crits). You cannot stack increases for broadening your crit range, you instead take only the largest increase.      

3) Enchantments & Illusions - If you have a "perceptive mind" you can be effected by enchantments & illusions regardless of race. And Mindblank and like offer large bonuses to saves but not outright immunities. Not sure exactly where to draw the line, still working on this. Thinking of using the idea of, anything with an intelligence score can be effected by enchantments & anything with senses can be fooled by illusions, as a rule of thumb.  

4) Skills - No cross class skills except the Knowledges & Use Magic/Psionic Device.

5) Classes - No multiclass penalties. Only one PrC per character ever. Any number of classes.

6) Feats - Character feats are granted at every odd level (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc.)      

7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs

I welcome all feedback.

Peace,
Necro
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 12:36:17 AM by Necrosnoop110 »

Sohala

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 01:13:22 AM »
1-3, 6, 7 no objections.

4 Not a big fan, unless I am reading it wrong. Is it suppose to be, all skills are class skills besides Knowledges & Use Magic/Psionic Device, for classes that don't already have them? Or is it suppose to be, you can't cross class skills besides Knowledges & Use Magic/Psionic Device?

5 I hate the only one PrC, makes some PrCs pointless. Take three levels of something different and then back to you base class, or even ten levels and then ten levels of your base class. I could understand a completion clause added to PrCs, where you have to take the full PrC before you can take another one.
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snakeman830

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 01:29:10 AM »
7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs
Wish and Miracle.  That is all I feel the need to say.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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raith0

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2010, 02:41:02 PM »
7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs
Wish and Miracle.  That is all I feel the need to say.

beat me to it

and im another vote against the 1 prc rule and im unsure of your skill rule as well.  i like the sneak attack rule but i dont mind things being immune and creating feats that make you able to sneak attack things that dont normaly recieve them

Prime32

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2010, 02:49:22 PM »
On the 1 PrC rule, there are some PrCs designed to be entered by characters with levels in other PrCs. (Master Specialist is designed to make it easy to enter Archmage, some Dragonlance knight PrCs have levels in each other as prereqs)
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Sohala

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 02:52:13 PM »
7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs
Wish and Miracle.  That is all I feel the need to say.
Does it really matter at that point? Just teleport to some monsters, kill them for xp, cast the spell.
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Nietzscheese

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 03:03:45 PM »
7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs
Wish and Miracle.  That is all I feel the need to say.
Ditto; thats the one that pops out to me.  It kinda depends on what levels you plan on playing through; not a lot of low level spells break without material component.  I have some suggestions;

1) You could amend all spells with material components to have the option of being cast as a higher level spell to negate the need of the component or you could make this ability to be a metamagic feat.  The spell level change could be based on the cost; 1-50 gp +1, 51-100 +2 or something like that.

2) Change all material costs into material focuses that have a chance to break each time you use them.  If someone wants to use a spell with a material cost of 50 gp or 50 exp for example they would have to spend that outside of combat to create an arcane focus that must be held while casting that spell.  Each time they use it they have a cumulative 5% chance of the focus being expended in casting the spell.

Bozwevial

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 03:13:38 PM »
On the 1 PrC rule, there are some PrCs designed to be entered by characters with levels in other PrCs. (Master Specialist is designed to make it easy to enter Archmage, some Dragonlance knight PrCs have levels in each other as prereqs)
Not to mention Stoneblessed, which is designed to allow other races to enter certain prestige classes.

RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2010, 10:51:54 PM »
7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs
Wish and Miracle.  That is all I feel the need to say.
Yeah, but that's 17th level, so do we really care?  It's not like the game isn't broken by then anyway.

Besides, you'd need to house-rule out all of the other ways to get Wish for free, in addition to this.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2010, 11:31:11 PM »
7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs
Wish and Miracle.  That is all I feel the need to say.
Yeah, but that's 17th level, so do we really care?  It's not like the game isn't broken by then anyway.

Besides, you'd need to house-rule out all of the other ways to get Wish for free, in addition to this.
If you cast Wish and you lose XP, you are doing it wrong.

snakeman830

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2010, 11:31:44 PM »
7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs
Wish and Miracle.  That is all I feel the need to say.
Yeah, but that's 17th level, so do we really care?  It's not like the game isn't broken by then anyway.

Besides, you'd need to house-rule out all of the other ways to get Wish for free, in addition to this.
Without the XP cost, all items using these spells (Luck Blades, Ring of Three Wishes, scrolls, etc.) are affordable much earlier on (25,000gp less per Wish)
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2010, 11:52:47 PM »
Without the XP cost, all items using these spells (Luck Blades, Ring of Three Wishes, scrolls, etc.) are affordable much earlier on (25,000gp less per Wish)
Two things:

1) A Ring of Three Wishes has a prereq of caster level 20, so no one will be making them any earlier.  Even with the price reduction for PCs buying it...

2) A Candle of Invocation is 8,000 gp and you can Gate an efretti for three wishes.  So, without house ruling, a 5th level character could afford one.  A party of four 3rd level characters could all chip in for one.  Just make sure one of your three wishes is another candle each time.

Honestly, if you ban all the early wish tricks (before 17th level), not having an XP cost really doesn't matter.


Although, I'm kind of intrigued with how the Tome rules handle this.  I've never actually tried it for a game.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Necrosnoop110

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2010, 01:12:24 AM »
1-3, 6, 7 no objections.

4 Not a big fan, unless I am reading it wrong. Is it suppose to be, all skills are class skills besides Knowledges & Use Magic/Psionic Device, for classes that don't already have them? Or is it suppose to be, you can't cross class skills besides Knowledges & Use Magic/Psionic Device?

5 I hate the only one PrC, makes some PrCs pointless. Take three levels of something different and then back to you base class, or even ten levels and then ten levels of your base class. I could understand a completion clause added to PrCs, where you have to take the full PrC before you can take another one.
4 - I was thinking that all skills would be class skills for all classes with the exception of Knowledges & Use Magic/Psionic Device which require your class or a feat to access as a class skill.

5 - I like your suggestion of "must complete a PrC before you can take up another clause" and will use that.

Thanks :)

Bozwevial

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2010, 01:15:44 AM »
Really, that clause should be the entirety of the houserule. There's no need to prevent people from trying out exotic and delicious combinations of food as long as they know that they have to clean their plate before going back for seconds.

Sohala

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2010, 01:24:33 AM »
4 - I was thinking that all skills would be class skills for all classes with the exception of Knowledges & Use Magic/Psionic Device which require your class or a feat to access as a class skill.
Added to the no objections list.
"You think I'm talking about breaking the rules?"
"No I'm just trying to figure out how far you want them bent."
[spoiler]
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Ixen-Elemental Mage Test Game
Torgthen-The Darkening
Eldak-The Neverending Dungeon
Games
Dungeon Delver's Delight
Adventures in Eberron
Town of Terror
Working Progress
[3.5] Mana Mage

ScarfNinja

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2010, 02:11:03 PM »
1) Sorcerer- Seems fine, it will still be better/worse than the wizard in the things it's better/worse at.

2) Rogues - Seems fine, it's a question of precision, not necessarily vitals just as you say. Seems a little strange for elementals though, can you sneak attack a ball of energy with this idea? It's made of fire. It doesn't have joints.... Maybe you could give the rogue an option to trade SA dice that won't do anything for a bonus to hit the thing at all? A +1-10 bonus to hit against fortified targets could serve to offset things.

2.5) Criticals - Seems a bit potent for a Keen Falchion, which has an automatic 25% chance of hitting any monster in the game in the hands of a level 1 commoner, but honestly, your poor players are going to be the ones who suffer most, so if they're cool with this penalty against them, that's dandy.

3) Enchantments & Illusions - I see you don't like absolutes, but sometimes they make sense. Certain things are just plain immune to mind-affecting abilities. You can't make friends with a spider, it has no equivalent, it's programmed to bite and drink blood. You can't dominate the mind of an undead that has no mind because there's no mind to dominate, and you can't make an Elf sleep, because elves don't have the ability to sleep. If you take away sleep immunity, give those poor willowy buggers a bonus feat or something, make them catch up to humans a little. There's not really much else that gives enchantment/illusion immunity beyond True Sight (give it a caster level check as Dispel Magic for each illusory effect it encounters?) and Mind Blank (which admittedly only emulates mindlessness, doesn't cause it). I'm not quite sure, what's racially immune to illusions, other than Oozes?

4) Skills I was writing a lengthy question before I spotted your later explanation. All skills as class skills is far more reasonable, but in my own experience, part of the balance between classes is what skills that class can specialise in as much as the number of skills it has access to. A possibility I might recommend would be treating all skills except UM/PD and Knowledge as cross-class skills in terms of cap (1/2 level +1), but only costing 1 skill point to increase by 1 point. This may keep the intended class "bias" whilst encouraging characters to branch out into other things?

5) Classes - You've agreed with completing PrCs, which makes a lot more sense than the first idea stated.

6) Feats - More feats more fun. Sounds good to me.

7) Spells/Powers - No material component requirements or xp costs

JaronK

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 02:25:32 PM »
Number 7 is horrifically abusable.  True Creation, anybody?  Animate Dead/Awaken Undead?  Animate Dread Warrior? 

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 02:39:02 PM »
I could see keeping costly material components, but XP components make no sense.  They either do nothing (you're behind XP but the same level as the group), or you fall behind and start earning XP faster than the group for a net gain.

You actually gain more XP than you lose most of the time.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 03:46:25 PM »
Number 7 is horrifically abusable.  True Creation, anybody?  Animate Dead/Awaken Undead?  Animate Dread Warrior?  

JaronK
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 03:53:08 PM »
Number 7 is horrifically abusable.  True Creation, anybody?  Animate Dead/Awaken Undead?  Animate Dread Warrior?  

JaronK
Apocalypse from the sky.
Meh. The only one that matters on should probably banned outright, anyway. Or limited in some other way. XP costs are a stupid limiter.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]