Author Topic: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?  (Read 5070 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 08:06:34 PM »
XP costs are a stupid limiter.
They're a speed bump, at best.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2010, 10:59:53 PM »
XP costs are a stupid limiter.
They're a speed bump, at best.
They are pretty significant when your DM is too ignorant to listen when you tell them lower level characters are supposed to get more XP.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

veekie

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2010, 01:30:12 PM »
That is when you start mind crushing people into paying your XP costs for you.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2010, 03:17:04 PM »
XP costs are a stupid limiter.
They're a speed bump, at best.
They are pretty significant when your DM is too ignorant to listen when you tell them lower level characters are supposed to get more XP.
Well, yeah, but now you're arguing that the DM's house-ruling the game to screw you.  Basically, if you play the game by RAW, XP costs are either meaningless, or actually an investment that pays for itself in short order (one gaming session).

I suppose the DM could rule that everyone gets the same XP, period, to prevent that abuse.  This will likely make any real XP expenditure prohibitively expensive.  No one will cast anything above a double-digit or low triple-digit XP cost.  Those spells might as well not exist, then.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2010, 08:57:01 PM »
Why do casters need any help at all ??


Sneak Attack Anything - is a rather nice upgrade  :flutter
The skills thingy isn't needed. This Rogue works good.


Combat oriented classes can always use more stuff,
so more Feats is fine, but Casters don't need them.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2010, 05:10:15 AM »
Number 7 is horrifically abusable.  True Creation, anybody?  Animate Dead/Awaken Undead?  Animate Dread Warrior?  

JaronK
Apocalypse from the sky.
Meh. The only one that matters on should probably banned outright, anyway. Or limited in some other way. XP costs are a stupid limiter.
What's your thoughts on waiving material component costs?

RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2010, 01:32:51 PM »
You mean the costly material components?

If you get rid of WBL, then material components can go too.  If you're trying to stick to WBL and follow the DMG guidelines for encounter treasure, then you might want to keep them.  I'm not saying WotC did a good job balancing any of these three things, but the idea is those spells are supposed to come at some particular expense, which would then cut into your magical items.

You have to fundamentally approach WBL, XP costs, and costly material components differently if you want to modify even one of them, really.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

SiggyDevil

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2010, 05:53:37 PM »
What's your thoughts on waiving material component costs?

They should be required only one when the caster first learns the spell, but not for each casting.
It would give them a quest to perform in order to use it.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2010, 06:26:49 PM »
You have to fundamentally approach WBL, XP costs, and costly material components differently if you want to modify even one of them, really.
How would you approach the three (WBL, XP Costs, & Costly Material Components) in a balanced uniform manner? (anyone can answer)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 07:19:57 PM by Necrosnoop110 »

Solo

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2010, 07:06:35 PM »
XP costs are a stupid limiter.
They're a speed bump, at best.
They are pretty significant when your DM is too ignorant to listen when you tell them lower level characters are supposed to get more XP.
For future reference, where does it list the rules for XP gain?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Necrosnoop110

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2010, 07:10:42 PM »
For future reference, where does it list the rules for XP gain?
DMG pgs 36-41

Table 2-6 on page 38 clearly shows that characters of a lower level receive more experience points for a given monster of a given challenge rating than do characters of the same or higher level.  
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 07:19:18 PM by Necrosnoop110 »

RobbyPants

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2010, 07:22:59 PM »
You have to fundamentally approach WBL, XP costs, and costly material components differently if you want to modify even one of them, really.
How would you approach a three (WBL, XP Costs, & Costly Material Components) in a balanced uniform manner? (anyone can answer)
Well, dropping XP costs is easy enough to do, but you have to figure out for yourself if you mind people being able to spam certain spells that used to have XP costs.

Costly material components are tied directly to WBL because they both come from the same source: money.  One of the fundamental differences from 3E and earlier editions is that 3E directly equates wealth to power.  You can take money and turn it into magical items, which give you power.  Sadly, this both encourages the magic Christmas tree effect as well as encouraging PCs to plunder every temple and dungeon they encounter down to the last gold-engraved glyph or adamantine hinge.  It also makes players more scared of getting their phat sword sundered then having their PC die.

The easiest way to address those issues is to either let all +X magical items (magic weapons, armor, cloaks of resistance, and stat boosters) get a static bonus based on the level of the person wearing it, or to get rid of those items all together, and give equivalent bonuses to all PCs based on their level.  This gets rid of the notion of needed an certain power level sword to properly compete at any given level.  Although, trying to reconcile both the mundane and magical economy still gets pretty difficult.  It's pretty hard to come up with a compelling reason why you can't buy a Bag of Holding.


One thing I like about the Tome series is that they address all of these issues, but they take a pretty storng fundamental approach, actively embracing the idea that PCs at roughly level 11 have access to Wish.  Using 3.0's version of Wish, this means that they can simply get any magic item of 15,000 gp or less or 25,000 gp of treasure.  This also means that any item that costs more than 15,000 gp can never be traded for material wealth because, by definition, if you're powerful enough to own one of them, you have access to Wish and can simply Wish for any amount of money you want.  At that point, you've entered the Wish Economy and you have little use for money anymore.

For more detail, you can read directly about it here.  I think it's a pretty good read and it makes a lot of sense.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2010, 07:32:05 PM »
You have to fundamentally approach WBL, XP costs, and costly material components differently if you want to modify even one of them, really.
How would you approach the three (WBL, XP Costs, & Costly Material Components) in a balanced uniform manner? (anyone can answer)
This is how I'm doing it. To summarize: drop all XP and material component costs, and go with a modified version of Frank and K's attuned magic items system, combined with a chart for WBL which is adapted from the MiC chart for items NPCs should have.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2010, 07:44:03 PM »
For future reference, where does it list the rules for XP gain?
DMG pgs 36-41

Table 2-6 on page 38 clearly shows that characters of a lower level receive more experience points for a given monster of a given challenge rating than do characters of the same or higher level.  
Even more specifically is the process on pg 37. where you figure ECL of that character, cross with CR of each monster for xp table, total it all up, then divide that by the number of party members for the amount that character gets.
In 3.0 it used to be figuring the party level and calculating everyone getting the same from that new average ECL. This resulted in low level characters getting shafted and the high level characters getting XP they normally wouldn't have due to the new average ECL being lower than their own.
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

PhaedrusXY

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2010, 09:52:39 PM »
For future reference, where does it list the rules for XP gain?
DMG pgs 36-41

Table 2-6 on page 38 clearly shows that characters of a lower level receive more experience points for a given monster of a given challenge rating than do characters of the same or higher level.  
Even more specifically is the process on pg 37. where you figure ECL of that character, cross with CR of each monster for xp table, total it all up, then divide that by the number of party members for the amount that character gets.
In 3.0 it used to be figuring the party level and calculating everyone getting the same from that new average ECL. This resulted in low level characters getting shafted and the high level characters getting XP they normally wouldn't have due to the new average ECL being lower than their own.
Right. Unless you played in Forgotten Realms, which is where the "new" 3.5 method was originally from (FRCS).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2010, 10:39:16 PM »
For more detail, you can read directly about it here.  I think it's a pretty good read and it makes a lot of sense.

And then you realize their "Powerfull currencies" can be replicated just as easy (if not easier) than gold and minor magic items. Hilarity ensues.

Also, I'm pretty sure that back in my 3.0 campaign lower level characters did gain more exp, altough I believe it was an errata and not in the first print.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2010, 10:59:13 PM »
For more detail, you can read directly about it here.  I think it's a pretty good read and it makes a lot of sense.

And then you realize their "Powerfull currencies" can be replicated just as easy (if not easier) than gold and minor magic items. Hilarity ensues.
You're missing the point. Those are just made up things that have never been referenced in any other D&D source. They're abstract enough that the DM can rightly claim that you can't make them using any magic, including Wish (and if you're using those rules, that's what you're supposed to do).

You can't buy them with gold (which there are a zillion ways to get by abusing magic in D&D), and you can't reproduce them with magic. So you can't make an infinite amount of them and break the economy, like you can with gold (or Wishes). The idea is that it's easier to "fix" the D&D economy by basically throwing it out the window at a certain level, and creating another one that's entirely separate from it. That's the point.

The alternatives are to 1) Go and "fix" every possible infinite wealth combo, like Wall of Iron + Fabricate, or abusing Efreet for Wishes (or just flat using a Ring of Three Wishes to wish for another Ring of Three Wishes).

or 2) Agree to not use those things (via gentleman's agreement, DM threat, or whatever). But does that make for a believable world that exists within the given rules set? No. It's a huge, gaping hole that you have to just conveniently ignore, like a pink elephant in the room.

Many people find both of those approaches to be unsatisfactory. Hence Frank and K's attempt to create a third alternative. And I fully suspect that you know all of that, and are just trolling because you dislike Frank, K, and/or the gaming den.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2010, 12:39:39 AM »
You're missing the point. Those are just made up things that have never been referenced in any other D&D source. They're abstract enough that the DM can rightly claim that you can't make them using any magic, including Wish (and if you're using those rules, that's what you're supposed to do).

Exhibit A- souls and their harvesting have been covered in several places in D&D.
Exhibit B-anti-matter and atomic physics aren't referenced in any D&D source, but that doesn't stop people from going wild with magic to create them.
Exhibit C-I'm pretty sure that the D&D rules supose you to don't chain bind efreetis, as well as they supose a lot of other stuff, but what the players do with them is another thing.

You can't buy them with gold (which there are a zillion ways to get by abusing magic in D&D), and you can't reproduce them with magic.
 So you can't make an infinite amount of them and break the economy, like you can with gold (or Wishes).
Thinaun weapon. Insert summon/calling spell. Profit. By tome logic, yes, you can harvest the souls of summoned creatures. And that's for starters. Once we start going with PaO, fabricate and major creation the true fun begins!

The idea is that it's easier to "fix" the D&D economy by basically throwing it out the window at a certain level, and creating another one that's entirely separate from it. That's the point.
Again, their intention, just as I'm sure the D&D designers didn't intend for infinite wealth combo. But their system is just as full of holes if you just try poking at it.

The alternatives are to 1) Go and "fix" every possible infinite wealth combo, like Wall of Iron + Fabricate, or abusing Efreet for Wishes (or just flat using a Ring of Three Wishes to wish for another Ring of Three Wishes).
See, that's the kind of cheesy reading that truly breaks games. You cannot use a ring of three wishes to wish for another ring of three wishes, because items that replicate spells that cost exp must have said exp cost already paid on their construction. The efreeti can do it, but it's just a matter of saying "Efreetis don't exist on this seting, as well as any monster with a Wish SLA". Was it that hard?

or 2) Agree to not use those things (via gentleman's agreement, DM threat, or whatever). But does that make for a believable world that exists within the given rules set? No. It's a huge, gaping hole that you have to just conveniently ignore, like a pink elephant in the room.
And now we have a purple elephant. The tome economy only works by gentleman's agreement for you don't starting your own soul factory or cheesy readings of other stuff.

Many people find both of those approaches to be unsatisfactory. Hence Frank and K's attempt to create a third alternative. And I fully suspect that you know all of that, and are just trolling because you dislike Frank, K, and/or the gaming den.
I'm not trolling here. I'm just pointing out that if you bother to stretch their economy as badly as they stretch the basic D&D economy, they both colapse.

Prime32

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2010, 01:42:00 AM »
See, that's the kind of cheesy reading that truly breaks games. You cannot use a ring of three wishes to wish for another ring of three wishes, because items that replicate spells that cost exp must have said exp cost already paid on their construction. The efreeti can do it, but it's just a matter of saying "Efreetis don't exist on this seting, as well as any monster with a Wish SLA". Was it that hard?
The Tome rules disallow SLA effects which would require XP. So efreeti can't grant those kinds of wishes.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: [3.5] Houserules Balance Question?
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2010, 02:25:48 AM »
I don't know the tome system so i'm not going to bother addressing any issues with it, but your understanding of basic D&D is off.

First, it isn't an interpretation that you can destroy the gold based economy with many tricks including wall of iron. The game lets you make a large chunk of iron appear out of no where and it also lists the value of that iron by pound. While Wall of Iron doesn't tell me how much it weighs that can be figured out and now I can sell it as iron. Fabricate is only to turn it into something useful.

edit: nevermind #2 I misread what you had said.

And your simple remove creatures with wish doesn't really solve the problem either it just removes iconic creatures. There is no easy fix and F&K made an attempt at an alternative that obviously doesn't make it through your standards.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 02:29:18 AM by archangel.arcanis »
Clerics and Druids are like the 4 and 2 in 42. Together they are the answer to the ultimate question in D&D.
Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren