Author Topic: Steel vs Tome  (Read 11470 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Steel vs Tome
« on: August 20, 2010, 12:34:14 PM »
I finally obtained Dragon Magazine #343 and got to see the Tome Dragon's stat block.
So let's have them duke it out in the form of a forum poll.

At a glance

Steel (forgotten realms, dragons of faerun)
   Stats: 4HD/2LA, Small
   Alignment: LN or LG
   Adjustments: +2 con/cha
   Natural AC: +3
   Speed: land 60ft, fly 150ft (average), swim 30ft
   Breath: line of acid, 1d6 & cone of poison, 1 con damage then 1 min later again.
   Qualities: alternate form, immunity to acid, SR 16, spells; sorcerer 1st + cleric + knowledge & trickery
   Spellcasting: Wrymling

VS

Tome (dragon magazine #343)
   Stats: 3HD/5LA, Tiny
   Alignment: usually lawful neutral
   Adjustments: -4 str, -2 con, +4 wis/cha, +6 int.
   Natural AC: +1 & +1 insight
   Speed: land 20ft, fly 90ft (good).
   Breath: Shot with a 5ft blast radius of sonic, piercing, bludgeoning, or fire, 1d8.
   Qualities: Physical Frailty, Arcane Sight, Precognition, Telepathy 100ft, SR 11, spells; sorcerer 3rd + knowledge & auto knows all divination/conjuration
   Spellcasting: Wrymling

***

Extended Details on their statblocks

Starting ECL goes to the Steel with it's availability from level 5 on with LA buyoff.
By ECL 8 they both have 3rd level spellcasting.
Steel can learn any cleric spell, the Tome knows all divination & conjuration spells without using known slots.
By ECL 9 the Steel can pay off the rest of it's LA, for 55% of the game the Steel knows a higher spell level than the Tome.
Steel dragons can have 20 while the Tome is limited to 16 allowing the Steel to obtain more powerful class traits.
Both can take Loredrake, both lose their domain access by doing so, the Steel loses cleric spells but the Tome still knows divine/conjor spells.

Steel has faster speed, can swim, poison breath and can hit more enemies with it's normal breath weapon.
Tome has bigger bonuses to mental scores, Steel don't have penalties to con.
The Tome's maneuverability is better but it's natural weapons & reach are reduced by one size.
Steel has one point of AC more but the Tome sports +1 insight to AC (does not stack with foresight and such) which is applied to Touch Attacks.
Tome has a 3/day Alternate Form and the Steel has 5/day Alternate Form.
Tome comes with Telepathy without having to dip into Mindbender, Steel can access Telepathy before the Tome is playable.
Steel's SR is effectively 26 at ECL 5 (up to 8) if the opposing caster were the same ECL, Tome's is only 11.
Steel is immune to acid which when coupled with Mantel of the Fiery Soul & Troll-Blooded means immunity to lethal damage.

Steel's Moderate Arcane Shield & the Tome's Precognition abilities are not defined.
Likely Precognition is the source of the insight bonus to AC (scales up to +4).
Minor Arcane Shield gives a +10 bonus to the Steel's SR against 4th level spells, likely moderate upped the level of spell the bonus can apply to.

Aging
Tome's Free Metamagic doesn't give free feats, instead metamagic feats with less cost than X do not alter the action spent to cast it.
Steel's casting time remain changed allowing it to use a Spell Surge + Invisible Spell for casting two spells each round.

Steel gets enthall, Charm/Suggestion and their Mass versions.
Tome gets Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Planesshift, True Seeing, & Astral Projection.

Steel's DR caps at DR 20/magic, Tome's is DR 15/magic.
Both have the same AC & Flat-Footed ACs, Tome's touch AC is two higher (thanks to the insight bonus).


Other
Steel is official material.
Tome knows all sorcerer conjuration spells (it bears repeating, else it's a no contest and Steel wins).

***

So which one do you like better and should win the poll?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Ivory Knight

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 12:52:06 PM »
I like the Steel Dragon better.
1) LA +5 is hardly playable(but still better than a Baron Cambion at IIRC 4HD/LA +5, which counts for something)
2) At least in Faerun it is likely to get allowed(a lot of DM's wouldn't touch Dragon content with a 10'-pole)
3) free Spells known are overrated, there are many ways to access what you want
4) Advancing a Steel to 7Dragon HD+13 classlevels(assuming 3 LA bought off at ~ECL 19) gets a pretty tough Gish(Loredrake should be around Sorc 5+progression from classlevels, maybe even gets 9th level spells by ECL 20)

dna1

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 12:58:08 PM »
steel ftw
Slappin ho's like E-Honda

carnivore

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 02:16:50 PM »
i like the Steel also ... but what are its Attribute modifiers?

 :D

Ivory Knight

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 02:27:01 PM »
The link to Realmshelp in your sig says +2 Con & Cha for a Wyrmling, at 7HD(as I used in my example) you also get +2 each to Str, Int & Wis(these alone make up for having to suck 1 lost spellprogression & 1 additional LA to buy off, if you're short on pointbuy/rolled badly)

Nunkuruji

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 05:17:09 PM »
You can only buyoff 1 level of Tome Dragon, at 18th level, as you need 15 class levels to be eligible to do so.

Unless you're starting at epic, Tome is not very playable. Steel is very playable with buyoff.

Prime32

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 05:55:21 PM »
There's always Dragon Leadership to ignore 3 points of LA (which also speeds buyoff). Combine with Close Cohort, then play the cohort (add Devoted Tracker if you want). In this scenario, I think the Tome dragon edges ahead.
EDIT: An lv6 master gets a 3HD/2LA Tome dragon, casting as a 5th-level sorcerer. When he's lv12 that becomes a 3HD/1LA Tome dragon with 7 class levels, casting as a 12th-level sorcerer. When he's lv14 it's a 3HD/0LA Tome dragon with 10 class levels, casting as a 15th-level sorcerer. Bonus HD from Devoted Tracker would let the dragon gain a free +4 CL through Practiced Spellcaster.

A Steel dragon could be ridden by a Tiny "master" for improved defence (it's hard to find playable Diminutive races).

Tome dragons also deal damage with their natural weapons as if one size smaller, reduce their reach by 5ft if it's above 10ft, and always fly with good maneuverability regardless of age.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 09:39:12 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Phoenix00

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2010, 03:28:31 AM »
Combine with Close Cohort
Improved Cohort from Heroes of Battle does pretty much the same thing but the wording is slightly different as well as the prerequisites.

Gavinfoxx

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 01:21:40 AM »
So I'm bumping this old thread cause it's Relevant To My Interests.

What would be a great Tiny creature to be a Wyrmling Steel Dragon's Backhacker?

Is there any template that makes a Pixie Tiny?

Also how do I defend to a DM that the creatures DO have that amount of Level Adjustment, and they DO have those modifications to stats and such? How was this stuff calculated? What about the differences between the Web version of Steel Dragon and the Forgotten Realms Version?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 01:23:46 AM by Gavinfoxx »
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 02:02:51 AM »
1. What would be a great Tiny creature to be a Wyrmling Steel Dragon's Backhacker?

2. Is there any template that makes a Pixie Tiny?

3. Also how do I defend to a DM that the creatures DO have that amount of Level Adjustment, and they DO have those modifications to stats and such?

4. How was this stuff calculated?

5. What about the differences between the Web version of Steel Dragon and the Forgotten Realms Version?
What is "great tiny"? *shugs*.

2. Polymorph?

3. By telling him to read the Level Adjustment entry for the Steel Dragon on page 140 in Dragon's of Fearun.

4. Using the same method told here

5. DoF doesn't have a description entry for Minor Arcane Shield. Also the web entry has unlimited and full ranged Polymorph whereas DoF's version's Alternate Form functions as Polymorph but no HP regen and limited to humanoid forms only.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

zook1shoe

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 02:22:10 AM »
Tome Dragon power!

(i do admit the steel is good though)

Ivory Knight

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2011, 09:27:22 AM »
Quote from: Found on RPG.net
Additionally, the Web Enhancement for Races of the Dragon beefs up Kobolds in order to make them as effective as other PC races - among other things, it gives them the Slight Build ability, which allows them to count as Tiny size whenever it would benefit them in an opposed check, such as a Hide check, or when squeezing through a restricted space.
Any comments, if this is seviceable?

Dragonwrought Kobold(likely Ranger, there might even be a Subrace with that racial class. Archer Cleric could work, maybe even with a Crossbow) + Steel Dragon Cohort(Sorcbased arcane caster, focusing on buffing the Kobold and other PC's + BFC) = 2 PC for 1 Player?

zook1shoe

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Re: Steel vs Tome
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2011, 12:38:56 PM »
Have the cohort get levels in Zhentarim Skymage (Lords of Darkness) and it gets its own mount, plus its own Leadership for even more  :P