Author Topic: D&D Design Musings  (Read 16303 times)

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bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2011, 09:19:10 PM »
So, from what I understand after inspecting it, spending four ranks in Acrobatics would give me 1) the bonuses that come from being trained through the third rank, 2) the use of Slow Fall, Quick Recovery, and Hop Step, and 3) the use of Confounding Escape and Staggered Charge? I rather like this, though I'm curious as to where skill feats come into play.

Ah, not exactly. Lessee, skill ranks are capped at 1 rank per character level, so you could have those 4 ranks at 4th level. You would get the Trained Only bonuses, yes, but Skill Tricks are a "pick one of these" deal. So at two ranks you choose one of Slow Fall, Quick Recovery, or Hop Step, and at four ranks you choose one of Confounding Escape and Staggered Charge (I'm hoping to add two more tricks to both categories).

Quote
As to the possibility of stepping on the toes of what I'm dubbing Athletics, there's always the possibility of adding something (say, a high-rank ability or a feat) that would let you use your ranks in one as ranks in the other, but only for the purposes of making checks. That way someone who's really strapped for skill ranks can focus on Acrobatics and still be competent in Athletics, but wouldn't have any of the benefits granted to someone who had specifically trained in Athletics (which I'd say makes sense from a fluff perspective and a design perspective).

This is a decent possibility. I also will consider limiting some of the Trained Only/Skill Trick stuff to skill feats as this is looking like a WHOLE LOT of stuff to get from just having ranks.

Oh, I'm also considering adding the following to the Difficult Terrain write-up: "Failing such a check results in the character being knocked prone and dealt 1d6 (or more) damage based on the terrain (falling onto a floor deals 1d6 damage, falling onto a floor covered in caltrops deals additional damage, falling onto a floor covered in fire deals more damage still, et cetera)."
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 09:21:57 PM by bkdubs123 »

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #101 on: February 19, 2011, 11:22:43 PM »
So, from what I understand after inspecting it, spending four ranks in Acrobatics would give me 1) the bonuses that come from being trained through the third rank, 2) the use of Slow Fall, Quick Recovery, and Hop Step, and 3) the use of Confounding Escape and Staggered Charge? I rather like this, though I'm curious as to where skill feats come into play.

Ah, not exactly. Lessee, skill ranks are capped at 1 rank per character level, so you could have those 4 ranks at 4th level. You would get the Trained Only bonuses, yes, but Skill Tricks are a "pick one of these" deal. So at two ranks you choose one of Slow Fall, Quick Recovery, or Hop Step, and at four ranks you choose one of Confounding Escape and Staggered Charge (I'm hoping to add two more tricks to both categories).
I like this.  I'm assuming that's why you put in the +3 bonus at 1st level?  To simulate having 4 ranks?

I like the concept.  Right now, all the DCs seem abstract, so it's hard to picture specifics, but the base idea is sound.  I like at 7th level that you can run around all Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon with Acrobatics checks.


You said you were worried about making Climb obsolete?  Is this rolled into Athletics, or something similar?  If nothing else, I'd start to have Paragon tier abilities give you super jumps or something, so you don't need to have willow branches nearby to use your ability.  I may be getting ahead of myself.
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bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2011, 12:28:34 AM »
like this.  I'm assuming that's why you put in the +3 bonus at 1st level?  To simulate having 4 ranks?

And it actually helped simplify the DCs of things, too. Untrained you're going against DC 10 to do something fairly simple. Trained with a single rank your going against something a bit tougher at DC 13, but with +3 to your check too, so it's the same difficulty.

Quote
I like the concept.  Right now, all the DCs seem abstract, so it's hard to picture specifics, but the base idea is sound.  I like at 7th level that you can run around all Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon with Acrobatics checks.

Right. With Difficult Terrain I sought to simplify and unify the concept of difficult terrain, while also adding more depth to it, and I hope I succeeded. They are slightly abstract right now, and I'm going to keep it mostly that way (since just about anything can constitute difficult terrain), but with guidelines for DMs.

For example, slightly obstructed is loose gravel/debris. Slightly sloped is close to a 30 degree angle give or take. Slightly slippery is very light water-type liquid. Oil is more moderately slippery. Slightly narrow, well, let's call it around 8 inches or so. For the other end, severely obstructed would be like two feet of snow or dense/large debris. Severely sloped is close to a 60 degree angle give or take. Severely slippery is like greased ice, lol. Severely narrow is between hairthin and an inch.

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You said you were worried about making Climb obsolete?  Is this rolled into Athletics, or something similar?  If nothing else, I'd start to have Paragon tier abilities give you super jumps or something, so you don't need to have willow branches nearby to use your ability.  I may be getting ahead of myself.

No, but as you get more and more "sloped" you're looking at surpassing 90 degree angles with Acrobatics, which seems to make Climb obsolete. Of course, Boz made a suggestion to allow Acrobatics/Athletics to be used interchangeably for these types of checks, which is a possibility. Super/Double jumps would be an Athletics thing for sure though, rather than Acrobatics.

EDIT: Oh, but what did you think about the basic mechanics and DCs? Do they seem appropriate?

EDIT2: Moved the important stuff to the 1st page. Everything I Have Done So Far and Acrobatics can be found there (in place of the random babble).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 06:23:24 AM by bkdubs123 »

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2011, 10:10:29 AM »
EDIT: Oh, but what did you think about the basic mechanics and DCs? Do they seem appropriate?
Well, it looks like your base check will still be your level + 3 with max ranks, and the rest depends on you Dex score an other modifiers.  That being said, in order to overcomes certain things at 50% you'll need a check of:

Slight (DC 13): a score of 2.  This is no problem whatsoever.  Assuming you have a Dex of 16, your score should be +7 with one rank, and you can succeed at a 6+, which is 75%.  This seems right in line with what I want to see.

Moderate (DC 18): a score of 7.  So, 1 rank and the +3 bonus means you can overcome a moderate impediment if you have a Dex of 16 50% of the time.  By level 5 or 6, you should be at about 75% success.  Fair enough.

Two Moderate (DC 23): a score of 12.  You'll probably be around level 7 or 8 before you can pull this off with a 50% rate of success.  You'll be around 11th to 12th to succeed 75% of the time.

One Severe (DC 25:) a score of 14.  You'll probably be about level 9 before you can pull this off 50% of the time.  Around level 13 for 75%

Two Severe (DC 35): a score of 24.  You'll probably be closer to level 15th level or higher before you can do this 50% of the time.  You'll probably be 18th or higher to do this at 75% success.

Now, those numbers are assuming no synergy bonuses (I thought you said you were getting rid of them), and no bullshit bonuses from popping some quick psionic trinket or something.  I'm just looking at base ranks and roughly what I'd expect from a Dex score at those levels.


That being said, at low level, the numbers seem to line up pretty well.  I'm not sure about the severe difficulty and stacked difficulties, though.  I guess it depends on what level you want to be before they become relatively trivial.  Perhaps you should stack them differently.  You could always follow the simple DMG guidelines of +2 for every factor, starting with a base DC of the hardest thing.

Incedentially, one nice use for Athletics could be to simply jump over/out of difficult terrain.
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veekie

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2011, 10:28:27 AM »
Actually, one very very basic use of Athletics.

Increase movement speed.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

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Littha

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2011, 11:44:54 AM »
I know I am a little late to the party but on the Save or Die/Suck stuff if you had a mechanic to deal with them it would be good....
Possibly something along the lines of Toughness points:

Each class level gives a certain number of Toughness points, more for tough characters like the fighter and barbarian and less for wizards. You may spend a set number of the points to negate the effects of an incoming or already existing save or suck/die. Possibly along the lines of 1 point per spell level.

This helps deal with the problem of wizards completely dominating every encounter and as your opponents are still expending resources dosen't leave the caster feel like he has achieved nothing.

Fluff wise it would be similar to iron heart surge, or that death spells cant outright slay such powerful heroic characters.

The possibility to mix it with the Vitality points above is there too, ability to spend Vitality points on certain things is an interesting idea. Maybe something akin to Action Points in Eberron though more powerful. Nothing more heroic than doing something so awesome that it causes you serious injury in the process.

Prime32

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2011, 02:09:31 PM »
I'd suggest granting some precision damage stuff to the Heal skill. Either you gain minor sneak attack, or your damage dice increase in size, or you get to reroll them. Possibly a DC boost to effects like Stunning Fist, coup de grace, and poisons you craft as well.

Maybe the ability to tell what effects creatures are suffering from (including hp totals). Depending on rank:
  • "That man is poisoned"
  • "That dragon is poisoned"
  • "That dragon is poisoned by something which saps Con"
  • "That dragon is poisoned by the (X) spell"
It's easiest to identify the conditions of members of your own type, though abilities like Favoured Enemy and Wild Empathy can extend that to other types.

Would be nice if certain types of wound needed Heal checks in addition to magic to fix (the idea being that magic is "dumb" and can't do precise work by itself). Maybe such wounds could use mechanics similar to diseases.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 02:18:58 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

oslecamo

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2011, 02:18:13 PM »
The possibility to mix it with the Vitality points above is there too, ability to spend Vitality points on certain things is an interesting idea. Maybe something akin to Action Points in Eberron though more powerful. Nothing more heroic than doing something so awesome that it causes you serious injury in the process.

Dark Heresy has a specially deadly system, but it kinda compensates for that with the Fate Points system. Fate Points can be normally spent as Action Points for boosting mundane stuff, and renew each day. You can however burn them to survive any sure-death situation (like a ship burning and crashing trough the atmosphere with you inside, or a lascannon scoring a direct crit that would reduce you to dust). Burned Fate points can then only be recovered by performing specially heroic deeds.

Littha

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2011, 02:20:21 PM »
Yea, i have played dark heresy.


It involved rolling up new characters 3 times a session...


bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2011, 05:06:52 PM »
Slight (DC 13): a score of 2.  This is no problem whatsoever.  Assuming you have a Dex of 16, your score should be +7 with one rank, and you can succeed at a 6+, which is 75%.  This seems right in line with what I want to see.

In fact, this is the DC for two slight difficulties. :)

Quote
Now, those numbers are assuming no synergy bonuses (I thought you said you were getting rid of them), and no bullshit bonuses from popping some quick psionic trinket or something.  I'm just looking at base ranks and roughly what I'd expect from a Dex score at those levels.

Well, I'm not sure if I'm going to use synergy bonuses or not just yet. I might. Another thing to remember is that as you gain ranks and the ability to navigate extremely or impossibly difficult terrain the DCs for the others go down. Like at 7 ranks, you can navigate extremely difficult terrain, you ignore slight difficulties entirely, and the DCs are bumped down for everything accordingly. So at 7 ranks a moderate difficulty goes from being DC 18 to DC 10, two moderates goes from DC 23 to DC 13, one severe goes from DC 25 to DC 18, one extreme is now DC 25, two extremes is now DC 35.

Quote
Perhaps you should stack them differently.  You could always follow the simple DMG guidelines of +2 for every factor, starting with a base DC of the hardest thing.

Possible, I suppose, but then there's no distinguishing in difficulty between scattered gravel and three feet of snow or between walking a tight-wire and walking along an 8 inch wide path.

Actually, one very very basic use of Athletics.

Increase movement speed.

I like this idea very much. :D

I'd suggest granting some precision damage stuff to the Heal skill. Either you gain minor sneak attack, or your damage dice increase in size, or you get to reroll them. Possibly a DC boost to effects like Stunning Fist, coup de grace, and poisons you craft as well.

Would be nice if certain types of wound needed Heal checks in addition to magic to fix (the idea being that magic is "dumb" and can't do precise work by itself). Maybe such wounds could use mechanics similar to diseases.

Yeah, I've trying to come up with a way to re-incorporate Heal. A Biology skill might work if it covered as much area as the Arcana skill, in it's given field that is.

I know I am a little late to the party but on the Save or Die/Suck stuff if you had a mechanic to deal with them it would be good....
Possibly something along the lines of Toughness points:

I'm going to attempt to reduce the effectiveness of save or dies and save or suck, yes, but I think it will be more in the department of giving players better defenses against them rather than nerfing them into uselessness. I'm leaning toward using a lot of 4e's status ailments, which are generally milder, and shrugging status ailments off should be much, MUCH easier than it is for characters.

Save or dies will be rare, but when random player death rears its ugly head I hope to provide mechanics such that death can really be "just another adventure."

Prime32

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #111 on: February 20, 2011, 05:15:45 PM »
Yeah, I've trying to come up with a way to re-incorporate Heal. A Biology skill might work if it covered as much area as the Arcana skill, in it's given field that is.
Both have some overlap with an Alchemy skill. This would likely take the form of synergy abilities between those and the latter. Unless you just create an Alchemist class instead.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #112 on: February 20, 2011, 05:19:08 PM »
Yeah, I'm not sure about an Alchemy skill altogether. It would cover the crafting of potions, bombs, chemical compounds, and poisons. Seems to be enough to justify it's own skill...

Littha

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #113 on: February 20, 2011, 08:56:46 PM »
If you do go the status ailments route be careful not to hit the final fantasy problem where the only spells worth casting are damage spells.

veekie

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #114 on: February 20, 2011, 09:01:14 PM »
The trick with status ailments is that significantly lower CR enemies should take full effect from them and ailments stacks up to become much worse ailments.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Littha

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #115 on: February 20, 2011, 10:37:09 PM »
Possibly but you never want to reach the point where just blowing holes in your opponent is more useful than debuffing them. This is the final fantasy problem, any enemy worth debuffing is immune or highly resistant to your effects.

bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #116 on: February 21, 2011, 12:16:33 AM »
Right, I've played lots of final fantasy in my day, and I can attest to that being a major issue in much of the series, although in FFX debuffing worked pretty well what with Delay Buster and Auron's Break attacks.

EDIT/ADDITION: The issue in Final Fantasy was that any "level appropriate" monster was basically immune or 90% resistant to any status ailment you could throw out. On the other hand, my plan is to use 4e-style milder status ailments, which are also going to be easier to shrug off than they would be 3.5. The result will be that you are still very much able to inflict a penalty on your foe, it just probably won't completely put them out of the fight and it probably won't last quite as long as it would have in 3.5.

One example would be 4e's Sleep spell. Porting this straight into 3.5 and replacing the old Sleep with it, you're still getting a great AoE debuff, but it's not such a complete auto-death spell.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 12:36:24 AM by bkdubs123 »

veekie

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2011, 04:20:05 AM »
Well, as a sample for altering Sleep.

Succeed on save - Fatigued for duration. Non stacking.
Fail save - Exhausted for duration. Already fatigued or exhausted targets fall asleep(woken by damage).
Fail save by >10 - Magical Sleep for duration(impossible to wake), becomes natural sleep at end.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Bozwevial

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2011, 12:08:50 PM »
Well, as a sample for altering Sleep.

Succeed on save - Fatigued for duration. Non stacking.
Fail save - Exhausted for duration. Already fatigued or exhausted targets fall asleep(woken by damage).
Fail save by >10 - Magical Sleep for duration(impossible to wake), becomes natural sleep at end.
Right, so only weaker targets (or those that are extremely unlucky) get taken out entirely.

veekie

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Re: D&D Design Musings
« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2011, 12:11:03 PM »
Even for bad luck you'd need a terrible save to start with to actually get wiped out like that. AND you don't waste the spell on a success either.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."