Author Topic: Build that teaches the alternate magic systems-Vestige, Incarnum, Psionics?  (Read 3020 times)

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Gavinfoxx

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Hi, I'm looking for a USEFUL build that, through playing it, requires someone to learn the alternate magic systems in D&D -- I'm thinking something with a mix of Vestige Binding, Incarnum, and Psionics.  Are there any builds that actually work well, that combine those three sets of abilities well in a useful way, and get their things doable at fairly low level, is synergistic, and interesting/fun to play? Thanks!
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Shadowhunter

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Easiest way to do this, I think, is with a binder/incarnate.
There are 2 vestiges that grant psionic powers and power points, though admitedly the lowest one is 4th level.
Between vestiges and soulmelds, you have a pretty potent skillmonkey there.

Both vestiges and soulmelds are feat-accessible so those could be bodges onto a psionic chassis.

But multiclassing a binder, a soulmelder and a manifester at lower level, I'm a bit of a sceptic if it would work.

Maybe with some levels in Psychic Warrior, since that class is far more dip-friendly than the other manifesters.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Prime32

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Does ToB count? There are some pretty nice Diamond Mind/psionic builds.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Gavinfoxx

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Sure, why not... psionics, incarnum, vestige/binding, and manuevers. bonus points for especially magic seeming maneuvers used.  Anyone have a guide or something to an example build? I don't really know where to start with this...

What race is best poised to take advantage of most of the subsystems?  Focus on binding/incarnum classes, and use THOSE classes + a psionic race to get power points and a way to use them?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 10:39:45 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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lans

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Incarnate 2/Binder1/Truenamer3/Crusader2/Ardent X
Azurin
Feats
Practiced Manifester
Improved Binding
Extra Essentia
Skill Focus Truenaming Bonus
Item Familiar
Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
Utterance of the Perfected Map
Quicken Truenaming


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Gavinfoxx

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I thought Truenamer was unusable?? Are we sure we want to put truenamer into this?? I was hoping for something viable?
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awaken DM golem

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Ardent with an "wide" use of Substitute Powers, is good enough.
Tier 3 ish in middling experience hands, lower of course for the inexperienced.
The powerpoints to spells curve is basically the same as Wizard.
Fewer choices vs. more flexibility and same kind of pick any powers (spells).

Skill Monkey / Tool kit could be:
Feat Rogue 1 / Incarnate 3 / Ardent 2 with practiced manifester feat / the psi+inc dual class 10 / whatever X
... learn the two systems within a specific party role.
This isn't intended to be a good build, but it can be a serviceable tier 4.

Shadowhunter

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Chaotic Neutral Rogue 1/Binder 1/Incarnate 3/Psychic Warrior 2

Bind Leraje, meld Theft Gloves and Incarnate Avatar, pick a few archery feats from PW as well as something like Elfsight as a power and hey presto:
Archer skillmonkey.

You'll probably appreciate partial BAB.

Just an example, it's simple and it does the job decently enough.


+++EDIT+++
Actually, with Theft Gloves bound you gain trapfinding so you won't need the rogue level.
Also, Truthseeker Googles.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Gavinfoxx

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What about Psychic Rogue? And what race? Azurin? Elan? Xeph? And can Psychic Rogue be combined with Feat Rogue?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 06:42:42 PM by Gavinfoxx »
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fuinjutsu

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Incarnate1/Psion 5/Soulmanifester3/Thrallherd5/Soulmanifester+6

Pump Essentia into Charming Veil and go to town.


Interesting tidbit
Essentia damage to someone without essentia is wisdowm damage.  Since there is no printed protection against essentia damage, a possible houserule is that protection against wisdom damage proetcts against essentia damage.   This makes Dalver-Na a great vestige (binder dip) to go with Incarnum classes  (High con + NA based on con helps too).  Binder1(improved binding)/Incarnate19
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

Waazraath

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Bloodlines from UA work (depeding on interpretation, talk to dm) great for binders as well as ToB classes... it's not that hard to make a build that reaches soulbinding 20 / martial adept initiator level 20.

Example: greater bloodline 3 / warblade 2 / binder 4 / knight of the sacred seal 5 / scion of dantallion 2 / bloodclaw master 2 / eternal blade 2. 15 bab, great saves, plenty of manouvers and other options.

Of course, bloodlines can get initiator level and soulbinding level far above 20, but for most games i'd recommend against it.

I think that bloodlines work with incarnum as well, but don't know enough about that system to suggest a build.

fuinjutsu

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Bloodlines from UA work (depeding on interpretation, talk to dm) great for binders as well as ToB classes... it's not that hard to make a build that reaches soulbinding 20 / martial adept initiator level 20.

Example: greater bloodline 3 / warblade 2 / binder 4 / knight of the sacred seal 5 / scion of dantallion 2 / bloodclaw master 2 / eternal blade 2. 15 bab, great saves, plenty of manouvers and other options.

Of course, bloodlines can get initiator level and soulbinding level far above 20, but for most games i'd recommend against it.

I think that bloodlines work with incarnum as well, but don't know enough about that system to suggest a build.

Bloodlines work with abilities based on level.  Incarnum has almost none of these.
Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

jameswilliamogle

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In the Anima Mage section, it has in the adaption that you can use the same class with psionics, substituting casting for psionics.  I worked on a fairly fancy build that used that at one point; I can't remember where it is exactly, but it focused on Binding w/ a moderate dash of psionics for the most part.  Here's the basis:
Human Binder 2 / Ardent 2 / Bloodline 2 (this is pretty critical) / Anima Mage 8 / Knight of Sacred Seal 4 / Scion of Dantallion 2

If you time the Anima Mage levels right, and take Practiced Manifestor, and end up getting a ML of 18 which allows 9th level psionics due to Ardent's wonky power choices.  The other classes get you an effective binder level of 24, which gets you all binder benefits outside of their immunities (which should not be overlooked).  Also, BAB of +11, which is pretty good for a truely diverse gish.  The early stuff requires you to take Practiced Manifestor, Improved Binding, and some metapsionic (Extend ain't horrible, but take whatever you want to end up with).

Anyways, you can remove the Bloodline levels, and you don't really lose that much power, and you deal with a lot less cheesiness, too.  You do something like this:
Human Binder 2 / Ardent 1 / Anima Mage (Psionics) 6 / KoSS 5 / Scion of Dantalion 2 / Anima Mage +4.  Similar to above, except only EBL of 19 and ML of 15.  BAB +12.  Otherwise, similar to above.

From a pure learning experience the latter will be pretty good.  Focuses on Binding w/ a touch of psionics, in practice, so will give you some "focus".

Hope this helps!

lans

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I thought Truenamer was unusable?? Are we sure we want to put truenamer into this?? I was hoping for something viable?

Just don't let your  item familiar get sundered, you'll be fine.
Item familiar completely keeps truenaming viable, add in an amulet your golden.

With the item familiar investing for skill points your truenaming skill will be 2*L+6+stats+item+what ever, while the DC would be 15+2*CR which is at the breaking point of viability.
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awaken DM golem

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What about Psychic Rogue? And what race? Azurin? Elan? Xeph? And can Psychic Rogue be combined with Feat Rogue?
Psy Rogue 20 is fine. Specific role, not much behind any powercurve problems. Very minimized -festing.
Level 4 powers + tricks around the 9th level spell hijinks time = easier to handle.
It's basically between a level 4 spells caster and a level 6 spells caster. (equals easier to handle)
Feat Rogue 1 doesn't do much for Psy Rogue.

Race probably doesn't matter much for a new player, mechanically.
If you can't pick feats yet, for a class you don't know, the human bonus does what, not much.